Druids make me cry - AKA WotC can't write rules

[NineInchNall]

Right, one can walk aroud all day as a trog, but no one ever does. Why? Because it's not cool. So it's a nonissue. The same goes for so many touted problems that it really starts to bug me.

The alter self line has the potential to be the most powerful spells figurative pound for figurative pound, but most people don't use them that way because they'd rather have their characters be their own-cool-ass-selves. Non. Issue.

I still don't see the problem of having a character, covered in buffs, who can handle creatures of level appropriate CR. This is totally confusing me. Sure, the melee classes can't do it, but that shouldn't mean jack. They can't do anything worthwhile past level six, and you know it. Balancing anything by comparing it to a melee character is ultimately pointless.

The PHB2 morphs suck so much ass as to make me laugh at anyone who would cast them rather than any other spell. Fuck, you could cast a heightened magic missile instead of dragonform and it'd probably be a more efficient use of a spell slot.

[Lago_AM3P]

What's even worse is that it forces you to walk around all day as a troglodyte. And that just blows from a roleplaying standpoint. So even if you accept that they're somehow balanced (which they're not, at all.), you still have all your PCs who wanted to play a noble elven wizard now playing a smelly troglodyte. By allowing the spell you are telling your PCs: either you polymorph or you are taking a self nerf. And that sucks.

That's a huge conceptual problem with polymorph.

However, I remember you way back when being completely adamant against making polymorph more like astral construct, where you'd pick your bonuses off of a menu and then fill in the rest of the description. You said you'd prefer people to copy the stats and appearances of existing creatures rather than make polymorph a customization spell.

Have you changed your mind on this?

[RandomCasualty]

1161919975[/unixtime]]Right, one can walk aroud all day as a trog, but no one ever does. Why? Because it's not cool. So it's a nonissue. The same goes for so many touted problems that it really starts to bug me.

That's exactly why it should be an issue. You shouldn't get nerfed for doing something that isn't cool. Because you know, one day you might get a powergamer who doesn't mind walking around all day as a troglodyte, and the rest of your group suffers power wise for not doing that. The same goes for the heroic knight who wants to stay a heroic knight and not become a frost giant or hydra.

The PHB2 morphs suck so much ass as to make me laugh at anyone who would cast them rather than any other spell. fvck, you could cast a heightened magic missile instead of dragonform and it'd probably be a more efficient use of a spell slot.

They're not great, and they're not terrible. Dragon form and trollform are kinda nice when you get them, but their purpose is not about annihilating the opposition. They're not spells of mass destruction but rather spells of efficiency. Instead of burning a time stop and a bunch of offensive spells, you can just use a dragon shape and contribute to the battle at minimal cost. Also sometimes you may run into sometihng like golems that are immune to magic.

Hell, even if you just use it against something that closes in melee, it's fine. Remember, they're swift actions, so you can dragon shape and full attack in the same round.

No, they're not awesome, but they're not the total suck either. I'm sure you can think of a lot better spells for given situations, but that's how magic is supposed to be balanced. As opposed to one spell that does everything. That's what 3.5 polymorph is. It's the utility do-it-all spell. Want to fly, polymorph, want to turn into a brutal combat form, polymorph. Want a ton of AC, polymorph. Nothng even remotely approaches it, and your only balance point is that people won't do it cause it's not cool.

Well what if your character concept involves shapeshifting? Then you just totally overpower the rest of the PCs. that's the story with the 3.5 druid.

That's a huge conceptual problem with polymorph.

However, I remember you way back when being completely adamant against making polymorph more like astral construct, where you'd pick your bonuses off of a menu and then fill in the rest of the description. You said you'd prefer people to copy the stats and appearances of existing creatures rather than make polymorph a customization spell.

Have you changed your mind on this?

Not exactly. Though I can certainly acknowledge that there are other ways of doing polymorph that can work, like Frank's dungeonomicon variant. The monomorphs in the PHB2 also show potential as useful spells (once you get around that whole hit point thing).

I still think a list based polymorph could work, but it's not the only way, and possibly as I'm starting to think, maybe not even the best way. It's probably in truth a lot easier to just pull up a monster entry and play it from there, as opposed to doing all kinds of crazy modifications to your character sheet. So the universal replacement method has gained some favor in my eyes lately.

All I can really be certain of is that the old way sucked completely to the point of being irredeemable garbage. That hasn't changed, and I dont' see my stance on that ever changing.

Effectively polymorph needs to look like the other spells and it absolutely must be something people can live without. You should never gain a huge advantage by morphing into something. It can be useful, but it can't be so dominant that every character needs it as his schtick.

[Lago_AM3P]

I still think a list based polymorph could work, but it's not the only way, and possibly as I'm starting to think, maybe not even the best way. It's probably in truth a lot easier to just pull up a monster entry and play it from there, as opposed to doing all kinds of crazy modifications to your character sheet. So the universal replacement method has gained some favor in my eyes lately.

What's even worse is that it forces you to walk around all day as a troglodyte. And that just blows from a roleplaying standpoint. So even if you accept that they're somehow balanced (which they're not, at all.), you still have all your PCs who wanted to play a noble elven wizard now playing a smelly troglodyte. By allowing the spell you are telling your PCs: either you polymorph or you are taking a self nerf. And that sucks.

They're not great, and they're not terrible. Dragon form and trollform are kinda nice when you get them, but their purpose is not about annihilating the opposition. They're not spells of mass destruction but rather spells of efficiency. Instead of burning a time stop and a bunch of offensive spells, you can just use a dragon shape and contribute to the battle at minimal cost. Also sometimes you may run into sometihng like golems that are immune to magic.

Do you see how these statements do not match? Like, not even a little bit?

Doing it like this increases the probability that characters are going to hit a breaking point when it's the most efficient to transform their character into, say, a stinky, ugly troll or some sexist, offensive cariacture like a nymph in a chainmail.

Having your lithe, but highly skilled elf swordsman character arbitrarily change into Frankenstein's monster, even if it's just for a combat scene, sucks if you don't envision your character suddenly becoming ugly and rotting when he wants to kick some ass but has some sort of effect where they concentrate and suddenly become a lot stronger.

That's exactly what the new variants of polymorph do. Even if they didn't suck from a power standpoint, it's dumb that you become rubbery, project an image, and grow tentacles because you needed a stealthy form to scout the forest with.

[RandomCasualty]

1161931315[/unixtime]]
Having your lithe, but highly skilled elf swordsman character arbitrarily change into Frankenstein's monster, even if it's just for a combat scene, sucks if you don't envision your character suddenly becoming ugly and rotting when he wants to kick some ass but has some sort of effect where they concentrate and suddenly become a lot stronger.

That's exactly what the new variants of polymorph do. Even if they didn't suck from a power standpoint, it's dumb that you become rubbery, project an image, and grow tentacles because you needed a stealthy form to scout the forest with.

Well, some people actually want to do shapeshifting as a schtick. There are people who think turning into a big druid bear is cool and want to do that alot. There are other people who want to play a heroic knight and stay a heroic knight. Poly spells need to be written in such a way that they're not powerful enough that they make the non-poly style suck. That is, the stealthy form you turn into to scout the forest shouldn't be stealthier than the rogue in his base form. There should be alternatives for people who don't want to poly, like invisibility, and so on.

I don't think thus far that any of the poly spells in the PHB2 force people to use them. There are plenty of other thigns a wizard can do besides trollform or dragonshape and plenty of damn good useful things, probably in the long run *better* than trollshaping or dragonshaping. Now there are going to be points where polymorphing is the better thing to do, but it certainly won't be every time and a guy who chose to focus on illusions is going to be every bit as useful as the guy who took all trollshapes.

[Iaimeki]

1161928496[/unixtime]]
Also sometimes you may run into sometihng like golems that are immune to magic.

Why do people think golems are anti-caster monsters? They may be intended as anti-caster monsters, but they aren't. Clerics and druids beat up golems the same way they beat up other monsters: buffs, summons (animations, allies, etc.), animal companions, and wild shape. Golems' spell immunity affects these abilities not at all. Moreover, all those special abilities that can own meleers don't bother clerics and druids, who have good saves and immunities from their spells and class abilities. Wizards beat golems using a simple application of low-level spells: grease is a spell that almost no golem can resist, because they have such terrible Reflex saves that they usually have worse than a 50% chance to remain standing when fighting a wizard of ECL equal to their CR, and once they do fall, they all have awful Dex and no ranks in Balance so recovering is all but impossible. At that point the wizard can sit back and watch the rest of the party shoot a downed golem to death, or if they feel the need to join in, just use no-SR spells like acid arrow or the orb spells from CA to plink it down in perfect safety. (Druids can do this too, actually, if they want.)

Seriously. Consider an iron golem. A 13th-level cleric can easily manage an AC it can't hit more than half the time, and with an adamantine warhmammer will hit the golem about as often for similar damage because of divine favor, greater magic weapon, and the like. Read that again: the cleric is about as melee capable as the golem, but the golem is supposed to be a challenge for CR 13 party. Meanwhile, it has a Reflex save of +5. A human wizard with 19 Int (all level-ups to Int, started with 16), no bonuses to save DCs, and a +4 Int item has a grease with a 50% chance of dropping the golem. A druid with great worm of the earth, a spell I ran across in CM earlier today, 21 Wis, and a +4 item has an 85% chance of dropping the golem into the earth and causing it to take 8d6 and 2d6 acid per round until it can manage to roll a Reflex save to escape (we expect that to take 6-7 rounds, so it's going to take an average of 73.5 damage from the process, during which it's doing nothing), whereupon it appears prone on its original position; a position, of course, that the wizard has put grease on so the party can easily finish off the rest of its hit points while it remains helpless. Of course, the druid can also paralyze the golem with sleet storm and dump AoE no-SR conjurations on it until it's dead, much like a wizard.

[NineInchNall]

1161932035[/unixtime]]
Well, some people actually want to do shapeshifting as a schtick. There are people who think turning into a big druid bear is cool and want to do that alot. There are other people who want to play a heroic knight and stay a heroic knight. Poly spells need to be written in such a way that they're not powerful enough that they make the non-poly style suck. That is, the stealthy form you turn into to scout the forest shouldn't be stealthier than the rogue in his base form. There should be alternatives for people who don't want to poly, like invisibility, and so on.

Okay, seriously. There is a difference between taking a route that is effective and taking a route that is optimal. These two routes do not have to be equivalent. Yeesh. That one method is more effective than another does not make the latter suck. What makes the latter suck is the inability to affect a shift to a goal state (victory). That Albert Pujols is fucking awesome does not make David Eckstein blow chunks. It just means that Albert Pujols is better than David Eckstein.

There are all sorts of other spells that one can take and be an effective character. Will you be as effective as you would have been had you taken polymorph? Well, that depends on the situation, but it's also largely irrelevant. At least it is to me. I've never been a large subscriber to the paradigm that every option should contribute equally. I've always been more of the school that says that every archetype should be able to help a party in which it's played rather than hold it back.

The new monomorph spells are, in every case so far, the worst option available among appropriate responses. (By appropriate I mean that using control undead has no chance of helping in an encounter against elementals.)

[RandomCasualty]

1161933362[/unixtime]]
Clerics and druids beat up golems the same way they beat up other monsters: buffs, summons (animations, allies, etc.), animal companions, and wild shape.

Yup, and polymorphing into a troll is just another kind of buff.

And as the troll your regeneration and bonus hp probably ensure that you can kill off something more efficiently than just blasting it with orb spells.

Okay, seriously. There is a difference between taking a route that is effective and taking a route that is optimal. These two routes do not have to be equivalent. Yeesh. That one method is more effective than another does not make the latter suck.

It does when one route is so much better in all circumstances as to make other choices foolish. That's what polymorph does. It can do pretty much anything. Whether you're looking to armor buff and cast, wade into melee as a hydra, fly really fast as a hawk or go into stealth mode, polymorph can do it all.

The new monomorph spells are, in every case so far, the worst option available among appropriate responses.

Probably true. There is probably some spell that can handle a specific situation better than a monomorph can. However, I dont' think any one spell can handle ALL situations better than a monomorph can. Monomorphs are about versatility. Having Orb of acid probably won't do much against a sizeable horde of monsters. Fireball or lightning bolt isn't going to help much against something with fire resistance, or even a lone target with evasion. Enervation isn't too useful when facing undead.

Trollshape is kinda nice in a wide variety of situations. It's not the kind of spell that's going to have a lot of perfect setup situations where it will dominate the competition like no other spell can. It's just a handy swiss army knife of combat spells. It's useful in a variety of scenarios and it's highly efficient (even brings its own healing) and best of all, it's a swift action to cast. Monomorphs tend to be fairly weak compared to "the perfect spell", but in adventuring, the perfect spell is not necessarily going to be at hand. Maybe you already cast it an encounter ago, or perhaps you never prepared it, thinking you'd be up against a different sort of quest. Wizards can and do run out of fireballs.

It's certainly not the best spell ever, but nor is it the worst. Are there better spells for any given situation?

Of course there are, and that isn't a bad thing.

That's called balance.

You may not think trollshape is worth it, I may think it is. And that's good, because it ensures different wizards are taking different spells instead of just blindly rushing for the uber spell of the level. That's what polymorph was. It was real ultimate power in a can, and the only people who didn't take it were people who didn't know any better or those who wanted to take a self-nerf in the name of roleplaying their character concept.

[Username17]

After thinking about this problem for years, I've come to the following conclusion:

Polymorph Other Cannot Exist.

I'm using big words because that's basically an F-bomb as far as a lot of people are concerned. It's a big step, but here's the reasoning:

• If other people prevent you from playing the character you want to play, they are being an asshole.

That's pretty non-contentious, right? Here's the inherent contradiction as it applies to polymorphing other people:

Imagine for the moment that you want to play a "Booster" character. No big deal, right? It's an accepted party role and has been since the Red Box. If someone refuses the bonuses you hand out, they are being an asshole. They are directly harming the party and personally refusing to allow your character to do the thing she's good at.

But imagine for the moment that you want to play a Dwarven Tunnel Fighter. That's a time honored character concept and filled with justification since before Arneson and GYgax sat at the same table. If some guy is insisting that you play a winged lizardman with extra arms instead, that guy is being an asshole. He's attempting to prevent you from playing the character you asked for.

See the problem? If an available party buff transforms a character into something else, someone is going to be an asshole whether it is used or not.

---

Transforming yourself doesn't have this problem. Presumably you only pick up a transformational class feature if that's what you wantto do with your life. There's no conflict of interest. As long as the bonuses you get from transforming into a bear are comprehensible and balanced against other abilities you could have instead (which currently they are not, but that's another problem), everything is fine.

So Wildshape is salvageable. Shapechange is salvageable. Alter Self is salvageable. Baleful Polymorph is salvageable. But Polymorph is not. It's broken on first principles before we even write game effects for it to have.

All the discussion about Monomorphs and Polymorphs is missing the fundamental point:

The game is fundamentally and irrevoccably harmed if transforming a compatriot into an advantageous form is an available ability.

-Username17

[Crissa]

But am I making you not play your character when my buff for flight is wings, as opposed to a flying hand you sit on? Is that really any different? What about refusing to use the Assassin's poison or the Paladin's aura?

And none of the WotC solutions allow for the diguise/curse uses of PO, and even when playing a Sorceror, I wouldn't have minded PO being disguise based and having an Alter Other which could be a small set of buffs.

Not everyone wants to play with the Transmuter; but not everyone wants a Paladin or Assassin on their team, either.

-Crissa

[NineInchNall]

And what of the party member who actively wants to be transformed?

By your reasoning, gaseous form should also not exist, as it interferes with the dwarven tank, the Cleric's turn undead, the half-dragon's breath weapon, etc., etc.

[Tokorona]

The fact that PO is in effect, a Class Emulator, means that it's other applicaiton is broken too.
As for NIN -

STatement 1 works out this way. If you want to be transformed, your DM should jsut let you be that originally - seriously, you don't need PO to be a spell for that - you can just be hit with some magic effect.

STatement 2 - No, he's saying that PO interfers because I can make you a Balrog, when you're an elf. Gaseous Form doesn't apply to that statement at all

[NineInchNall]

Yes, it does interfere. If I want to breathe on things as a half-dragon, then I can no longer do that if in gaseous form.

[Tokorona]

... That's a strawman. PO is possibly permament. Gaseous Form clearly isn't -and frankly, if you're in it, you're probably in it for a defensive measure.

[RandomCasualty]

1161994867[/unixtime]]But am I making you not play your character when my buff for flight is wings, as opposed to a flying hand you sit on? Is that really any different? What about refusing to use the Assassin's poison or the Paladin's aura?

Well, auras are passive, they don't actually change your character concept. In fact, they're entirely passive bonuses. You're still a dwarven tunnel fighter whether you've got a +1 morale aura bonus or not.

Now I can see wings actually screwing with someone's concept possibly too, though it's not nearly as bad as a full polymorph other effect, which truly replaces one character's concept with another. Though personally, I would like to get away from flight as being a common character ability in D&D, though admittedly that's more for game stylistic reasons as opposed to true balance ones. Personally, I've found the game to be more fun and tactical when terrain matters.

[NineInchNall]

1162022919[/unixtime]]... That's a strawman. PO is possibly permament. Gaseous Form clearly isn't -and frankly, if you're in it, you're probably in it for a defensive measure.

No, polymorph other doesn't even exist anymore. polymorph and polymorph any object are in fact temporary (the latter is temporary in most cases, and is dispellable in any case).

Unless I am misreading it, the problem Frank discussed was the fact that polymorph effects interfere with and often prevent a given player from being able to play out his character's defining characteristics. I don't see how my example of using a buff spell that prevents a character from using the defining characteristic of his design is different from using polymorph to do the same. As far as I can tell, that's not a straw man, as I am not (knowingly) misrepresenting any of the language that Frank used in his above post in order to create a proposition more easily defeated.

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah, Frank wasn't specifically talking about 3.0 PO, but rather any polymorph spell that you can use on others. In 3.5 these spells are polymorph and polymorph any object.

The fact that it's permanent or temporary doesn't really matter. Generally it's the purpose. Gaseous form isn't especially damaging because you don't actually adventure in gaseous form, you take it for a while to evade a certain obstacle, to slip in a crack in a door or to get away from a combat or something, then you change back as soon as you can. There's really no incentive to remain in gaseous form all the time, except maybe for a psion.

Polymorphing is different because you're actually adventuring and fighting and performing heroic deeds in this other form. It's not an elven archer or a heroic knight killing the dragon, it's a frost giant. That makes a big difference.

[Draco_Argentum]

The point is that you look different. What your character looks like is really important, much more so than his exact Str score. Thats why polying into a giant changes your character and bear's strength dosen't.

People are picturing their character in their minds, they want their dwarf to look like a dwarf.

[AlphaNerd]

I don't recall this being mentioned previously, so I am indulging in a bit of thread necromancy.

Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So, changing your CON post-wildshaping doesn't help one bit wrt HP.

[Username17]

1169921486[/unixtime]]I don't recall this being mentioned previously, so I am indulging in a bit of thread necromancy.

Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So, changing your CON post-wildshaping doesn't help one bit wrt HP.

Um... no. Changing your Con during wildshape doesn't change your hitpoints. Subsequent changes to your Con work normally.

Alternate Form does not make you immune to Constitution Drain or Con damagaing poisons.

-Username17

[Catharz]

Frank, I'm guessing that the "any change" applies throughout the duration of the spell/ability. So, while you aren't immune, your HP total doesn't change with your Con until the effect wears off. You'd still die if your Con went below 1.

[Username17]

1169923776[/unixtime]]Frank, I'm guessing that the "any change" applies throughout the duration of the spell/ability. So, while you aren't immune, your HP total doesn't change with your Con until the effect wears off. You'd still die if your Con went below 1.

No. The statement is that your hit points don't change despite any change (positive or negative) to your Constitution from the alternate form - not that your hit points don't change regardless of subsequent events for the duration of the Alternate Form.

The former is just stupid, the latter... is invulnerability.

-Username17

[Catharz]

Both options are stupid and possible. Whoever wrote the errata probably wanted the spell to say, "you keep your own Con score," but was too dumb or cowardly to actually do that. Whatever.

[User3]

1169921486[/unixtime]]I don't recall this being mentioned previously, so I am indulging in a bit of thread necromancy.

Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So, changing your CON post-wildshaping doesn't help one bit wrt HP.

That looks like new text since this discussion was had. (I have since given up caring about what the actual text of the new polymorph spells is - i'm either going to create/discover rules that don't make me cry, or just ban every such ability outright).

That said, I still agree with Frank. The "despite any change to its Constitution" is in direct reference to the directive "Apply any physical ability score modifiers..." as part of the Shapechange ability. In other words, it doesn't apply to changes in ability scores caused by anything other than Shapechange.

(Its not like this issue is only for powergamers. Imagine you change into a form with 6 more Constitution than you, and you get drained for 2 Con - Suddenly, you *gain* hp, assuming you can figure out what the rules are asking you to do).

You know, now that I think about it, what happens if you're Con-drained while Shapechanged, and then revert back? Does the Con-drain go away? (Obviously, most DMs are going to call it the sensible way - Con-drain transfers. But what do the _rules_ say? I don't know offhand. Honestly, I'm not sure they tell you how to handle that).

--Squirrelloid

[AlphaNerd]

Here's the whole text of the bit of Alternate Form that deals with hit points and ability scores:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... [quote][br]# The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
# The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form.
# The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
# Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
[/quote]

The real question is, do these apply as you transform, or for the duration of the transformation? The rules don't say.

As for con draining? One could certainly argue that it applied only to the new form, didn't carry over, and didn't affect hit points. Or you could rule that it carried over, and affected hit points before, or after, or something. Or you could argue just about anything you want (including that your HP change if you CON changes after you polymorph). The rules are pretty unclear. I don't know if the Alternate Forms text does or does not override the "if you CON changes, go look up your HP" rule.