Feats and Character Options

[Endovior]

I was looking over the new feats from Races of War, and a thought occurred: these feats are really good. Indeed, if allowed in a game, they overshadow all other feats, making them useless and unpickable. I understand and agree with the reasoning behind them... but where does that leave normal feats?

To answer that question, I conceived of a new idea: character options. Character options are like feats, only you get more of them, and they aren't as powerful (relative to Races of War feats). The system behind them goes like this: at first level, and at every level that you do not gain a normal feat, you get a character option.

What exactly are character options? Simple. Almost every "feat" published is now a character option. "Feat" is now a term reserved for really cool things deserving of the term. If it doesn't scale by BaB, Skill Ranks, Caster Level, or something else that goes up with character level, it's not a feat, it's a character option.

Your thoughts?

[User3]

Considering that Races of War gives out stuff like Power Attack and Combat Expertise to everyone, for free, I don't think this is going to be a problem for melee people.

It would let casters pick up every metamagic and item creation feat, though, and while Wizards should probably just get all the item creation feats as they level up, giving people a bunch of metamagic and the chance to take like twelve feats to reduce metamagic costs can lead to some pretty disgusting stuff. You might want to errata Arcane Thesis to not be quite so crazy.

Also, spellcasters can just throw away feats on stuff like Spell Focus, which means DCs will be a couple points higher. Whatever.

Oh, and you might see everyone taking Improved Initiative and stuff like that.

[Endovior]

I've played in games where 1 feat per level across the board was a house rule; from that experience I can confidently say that so long as such is the standard, it's a non-issue game-balance-wise. After all, the mobs have such, too...

Relevant to Arcane Thesis: it only affects one spell anyways; so spending a feat on it always seemed rather silly to me. That's exactly what I'm addressing with Character Options. Yeah, your mage will have some options; but given that there's only so much metamagic you can use anyways, this will be a 'more cool things you can do' thing rather then a 'breaks the game' thing... same for fighters, who can now pick up the cool maneuvers and such that would normally be disregarded.

Also, do note that most things that you'd "throw away" feats on are not particularly significant anyways... +1 to X ability, yadda yadda, not particularly interesting. The point of it is to allow characters to use the 'cool but not particularly effective' "feats" that populate the books... if someone wants to concentrate on Focuses and Specializations instead, that's fine, too. Seriously, those abilities are all like +1 or 2 anyways, it's not going to break the game.

[Nihlin]

1170014640[/unixtime]]I was looking over the new feats from Races of War, and a thought occurred: these feats are really good. Indeed, if allowed in a game, they overshadow all other feats, making them useless and unpickable. I understand and agree with the reasoning behind them... but where does that leave normal feats?

I think that was actually intended to be a feature, not a bug. There are way too many feats out there, and most of them are terrible.

I have the interest and patience to keep tabs on the newest releases and track which feats are on the A-list and which aren't, but most of the other people I play with don't. For them, that huge list is basically a mine field that they get to navigate, in whole or in part, every three levels. That's not fun for them. Like, at all. Some actually dread getting new feats, since it means that they have to go through it all over again - especially since just picking things that seem thematically appropriate has bitten them all in the rear at some point or another.

In my game, most of the things that are currently called "feats" have become "stuff I hand out as in-game rewards."

[RandomCasualty]

1170041444[/unixtime]]
I think that was actually intended to be a feature, not a bug. There are way too many feats out there, and most of them are terrible.

Yeah, narrowing the feat list is definitely a good thing. Of the published feats, about 1 in 20 feats was actually any good.

The other problem is that feats tended to rely so heavily on chains that you could only be good at one thing. It was mostly about crafting a one trick pony. And if you did try to split your feats, generally it hurt you pretty bad.

[Judging__Eagle]

Shiiete.

Well, that's a good way of doing things.

I've actually been wondering where feats like Darkstalker, Words of Creation, Iron Skin Chant, Extra Turning etc. etc. etc. all fit in when you now have effective scaling feats based on some inheretn in-character power structure (like skill ranks or BaB; both of which are directly tied to your level, not what classes you took in order to get into Runemarked Dragon before epic level (you need... a +20 will save to enter and pretty high natural armour as well to enter, and be a dragon so it's a hard class to enter unless you really are finageling your build).

This also means that people will be taking shit like Improved Natural Armour for monsters.


It also means that stuff like Multiweapon fighting would need to be replaced or scrapped; if not people would get Greater MWF by the time they have 4 hit dice.


Giving magic users the option to pick up more than a handful of item creation feats, ever, is cool though.

Seeing as how items over 15,000 gp can't be had for any 'price'; crafting them or killing people who have them is what most parties will have to do. And I don't think all spell casters want to have to take every crafting feat in order to simply make level appropriate gear. Even if we do have spells that now put the XP cost on someone who is willing to take the XP hit and isn't the crafter.

The PHII web enchancement has this; which has been bandied about ever since 3.0 introduced item creation as an actual option. Mostly b/c wizards and clerics (and archivists) get boned if they can craft items and then lose XP; while really what happens is that the crafters are greedy and keep their XP for themselves.



Actually; that's one thing that I find, the more restrictions that are placed, the more the powergamers will turtle themselves in to keep themselves powerful and then the average gamers get shafted.

Trying to shaft the already powerful really does very little and most often just fvcks up the little guy.

[Endovior]

1170041444[/unixtime]]

1170014640[/unixtime]]I was looking over the new feats from Races of War, and a thought occurred: these feats are really good. Indeed, if allowed in a game, they overshadow all other feats, making them useless and unpickable. I understand and agree with the reasoning behind them... but where does that leave normal feats?

I think that was actually intended to be a feature, not a bug. There are way too many feats out there, and most of them are terrible.

I have the interest and patience to keep tabs on the newest releases and track which feats are on the A-list and which aren't, but most of the other people I play with don't. For them, that huge list is basically a mine field that they get to navigate, in whole or in part, every three levels. That's not fun for them. Like, at all. Some actually dread getting new feats, since it means that they have to go through it all over again - especially since just picking things that seem thematically appropriate has bitten them all in the rear at some point or another.

In my game, most of the things that are currently called "feats" have become "stuff I hand out as in-game rewards."

Well, if you're giving away normal "feats" anyways, then this is just a system for doing so. Those who find it confusing can just take standard bonusey feats out of the PHB; while others can put some thought into it and look through 12 different books.

1170083450[/unixtime]]

1170041444[/unixtime]]
I think that was actually intended to be a feature, not a bug. There are way too many feats out there, and most of them are terrible.

Yeah, narrowing the feat list is definitely a good thing. Of the published feats, about 1 in 20 feats was actually any good.

The other problem is that feats tended to rely so heavily on chains that you could only be good at one thing. It was mostly about crafting a one trick pony. And if you did try to split your feats, generally it hurt you pretty bad.

Well, now you don't have to micromanage so carefully. You should now have enough character options to not only get into the prestige class of your choice; but to do a few other cool things with your character as well.

1170093558[/unixtime]]Shiiete.

Well, that's a good way of doing things.

I've actually been wondering where feats like Darkstalker, Words of Creation, Iron Skin Chant, Extra Turning etc. etc. etc. all fit in when you now have effective scaling feats based on some inheretn in-character power structure (like skill ranks or BaB; both of which are directly tied to your level, not what classes you took in order to get into Runemarked Dragon before epic level (you need... a +20 will save to enter and pretty high natural armour as well to enter, and be a dragon so it's a hard class to enter unless you really are finageling your build).

This also means that people will be taking shit like Improved Natural Armour for monsters.


It also means that stuff like Multiweapon fighting would need to be replaced or scrapped; if not people would get Greater MWF by the time they have 4 hit dice.


Giving magic users the option to pick up more than a handful of item creation feats, ever, is cool though.

Seeing as how items over 15,000 gp can't be had for any 'price'; crafting them or killing people who have them is what most parties will have to do. And I don't think all spell casters want to have to take every crafting feat in order to simply make level appropriate gear. Even if we do have spells that now put the XP cost on someone who is willing to take the XP hit and isn't the crafter.

The PHII web enchancement has this; which has been bandied about ever since 3.0 introduced item creation as an actual option. Mostly b/c wizards and clerics (and archivists) get boned if they can craft items and then lose XP; while really what happens is that the crafters are greedy and keep their XP for themselves.



Actually; that's one thing that I find, the more restrictions that are placed, the more the powergamers will turtle themselves in to keep themselves powerful and then the average gamers get shafted.

Trying to shaft the already powerful really does very little and most often just fvcks up the little guy.

Yeah, something will need to be done about the currently existing feats that are actually worthy of the name. Multiweapon Fighting is certainly the most obvious of the bunch. I'm not worried about people taking Improved Natural Armor, though... although AC is important, it's ultimately just +1 to X ability. Even if they took it every single time, I doubt it'd be game-breaking (compare with transformational abilities that grant massive amounts of natural armor, and other neat things, besides).

Item Creation was something I was thinking about in particular; none of my players ever take it, in favor of buying stuff. The XP loss is part of it, but it's also the loss of a feat. Only a quite saintly Wizard would ever take Craft Magic Arms and Armor under core; it lets him focus his abilities into making himself less powerful in order to make other characters more power. XP splitting helps, but saving the feat slot helps more.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, if you have players who are able to come up with really effective custom magical items, then it's a bit different.

From level 3 to 7 I've come up with at least a half-dozen new magical items that fit members of my group so well that it's only a lack of in-game time to craft these items that has prevented me from makign them for everyone:

A short list of these includes:

7-League Boots (Exp Retreat + Jump = +30 Speed, and about +22 on Jump checks (+10 from jump, +12 from having 10 feet more movement than 30 feet (+4 per 10 feet past 30 is the Jump rule)

Knowledge Textbooks (mostly for myself, since making 25 to 35 on a knowldege check makes my Dark Knowlege ability really uber)

Symbol of Close Wounds (12k) this item is just too hot; anyone can use it to cast Close wounds (an Immediate action spell, so you can use it if someone gets down to -10 or SoD'd) up to 30 feet away from their target.

Literally a small bookshelf in combat buff spells in scroll format (Good Hope, Prayer, Haste, Sphere of Invisibility); plus a few specific scrolls for specific party members (Greater Invis and Minor Creation for the ninja to have him SS 7 times every round with poisoned crossbow bolts)

Amulet of Alter Self (18k; a lot of use here; +8 Nat AC + WF (Warhammer) + Iron Will [Crucian form]; or +15 hide +10 move Silently if not wearing med o hvy armour [Skulk form].

Robe of Camoflauge (as the spell; +10 to hide checks)

Flying Lanterns (actually; I took these out of Van Richten's arsenal since they're so cheap and I'm gonna use them as platforms for the choir of awakened bonsai trees I'm gonna create).

Bracers of the Shaded Sky (Arrow Storm, in Bracer format, great for the ranger to spell-trigger when we're mobbed or fighting mobs)

Directional Head Up Display (basically a headband that gives +5 to survival checks; so the ranger always knows which way is north).

The hilarious thing is that just making scrolls ends up being dozens, if not hundreds of times cheaper than making a magical item; so, while I 'could' make a belt that casts Blessing of Bahamut 1/day, I'm better off just making 5 scrolls for 1/10th (or less) the cost.

[User3]

Those items sound pretty seriously underpriced. Compare the cost of a magic item to give all the (stacking!) bonuses Alter Self gives, versus one to give a continuous 2nd level spell, and the prices will be nowhere near equivalent.

In fact, it sounds like you're pricing a lot of those as spell-items, instead of by the cost of the bonus, which is wrong even by the admittedly problematic item creation guidelines.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well, a lot of the items are actually spell-trigger items. So they are costed as such.

The non spell-trigger items cost more.

Meaning that only my own character or a character who can cast the same spells as me can ever activate them.

Also, I could be a real dick and ass-fvck the much lauded 'item creation' rules and simply create items that give +1 bonuses to the same stat, check or whatever but all from different sources.

Such as a chaotic, profane, insight, circumstance, vile, skill-rank based bonus granting item that gives me a total of +6 to one check, or stat, for 600 gp.

An item that lets you cast Alter Self at will instead costs 18,000 gp.

Which, while looking cheap has downsides (like your AS could be area dispelled, but of course you could burn a round re-activating or wait until the item is magical again if you were focused dispelled).

The reason for those costs for bonuses is that a lot of the time someone wants to make an item that does not have a spell assosiated directly with it. For instace, a weapon that gives a profane boost to Str.

There are no such spells; so, you go to the adding up chart and find te cost ot tackng on a +6 to str would cost 36,000 gp.

Now, track down an evil spell; Deathknell or Descrate work well here, one makes you tougher as you kill helpless things the other fubars an area and makes it evil and th equivalent of Club Med for Undead. Now you've got the 'spell' used to create this item effect.

If, however, there already is a spell, then just make an item based on the spell and its duration cost modifer.


Really, I don't see what the big deal is, the person who benefits the most from this is the player playing the ninja; a horribely underpowered class compared to its big brother the rogue mostly b/c he now gains AC that will keep a mook from soloing him and he now has a chance of actually Sudden Striking more than 6 times a day (which is ludicrous since he should be able to SS several times, while the rogue is able to SA anytime he can flank someone and will).


In any case, it's like the old saying goes: "All the fighter needs is for the DM to throw enough magic their way"

Or, as I prefer to say:

"Throw enough magic at a sucky class and it begins to perfrom on par with the pure spellcasters who are already riding the power gravy train to broken-nation."



If you want to play in roman age or medieval Germany with no magic, that's fine, but if I'm playing in a campaign world where magic is literally used to light the cities, convey passengers in... Lighting Trains or uses magical submarines; you can better believe that I'll be making my own custom items.

Custom-crafted items are part of the whole 'heroes make their own (or comission other dudes to) cool tools and weapons' that fantasy stories are filled with.

[RandomCasualty]

1170093558[/unixtime]]
Actually; that's one thing that I find, the more restrictions that are placed, the more the powergamers will turtle themselves in to keep themselves powerful and then the average gamers get shafted.

Trying to shaft the already powerful really does very little and most often just fvcks up the little guy.

Well, not really.

Generally if you take away the uber abilities, the powergamers suffer. For instance, the casual gamer rarely even knows or uses polymorph, it's too complicated. So if you take polymorph and get rid of it, then the average gamer is left unaffected and the powergamer is not. There are a great number of abilities that aren't all that remarkable unless they're cheesed. Taking away those abilities really hits the powergamer where it hurts.

The other way to do things is to limit the number of books being used. Powergamers generally know lots of books, while average gamers don't. So if you narrow the field of choices, casual gamers can at least know all the material and be on somewhat even footing.

The powergamer will always be better, but you greatly reduce the margin of superiority by ditching abilities.

[Endovior]

Remember, though, that you can't get everything; there's plenty of loopholes and sneaky tricks, so the powergamer just needs to pick and choose an exploit among the material you don't nerf/disallow.

That being said, be careful how you define powergamer. If you're going just off 'more powerful then the other players', when the others are new and don't know the system well, then anyone who gets things mostly right falls into that category, and someone who carefully plans things out ahead of time looks like an absolute munchkin by comparison.

[RandomCasualty]

1170274342[/unixtime]]Remember, though, that you can't get everything; there's plenty of loopholes and sneaky tricks, so the powergamer just needs to pick and choose an exploit among the material you don't nerf/disallow.

Well yeah, you've got to be an experienced DM that reviews anything you allow into your game. For my games, I only review a complete list of nerfs and bans for core material. Anything beyond core is on a case by case basis, because there's just too much to comprehensively go over.

That being said, be careful how you define powergamer. If you're going just off 'more powerful then the other players', when the others are new and don't know the system well, then anyone who gets things mostly right falls into that category, and someone who carefully plans things out ahead of time looks like an absolute munchkin by comparison.

Yeah, when talking about character options, the powergamer is generally the guy who exploits crazy combos and excessive synergies.

[MrWaeseL]

Am I the only one who evaluates what he allows based on what players he has?

"Eh, they're not min-maxers. I'll allow most stuff and houserule broken stuff they stumble onto."

[Endovior]

I tend to agree with MrWaeseL... I haven't had problems with anyone getting really exploitive; but if I do, I can lay down some house rules to ensure sanity.

[Neeek]

I'm currently a player in a game with no one else who has ever played 3.5 before. Or even really read the rules. Including the DM.

Consequently, I've been granted authority on what to allow and not allow.

[Judging__Eagle]

1170264680[/unixtime]]

1170093558[/unixtime]]
Actually; that's one thing that I find, the more restrictions that are placed, the more the powergamers will turtle themselves in to keep themselves powerful and then the average gamers get shafted.

Trying to shaft the already powerful really does very little and most often just fvcks up the little guy.

Well, not really.

Generally if you take away the uber abilities, the powergamers suffer. For instance, the casual gamer rarely even knows or uses polymorph, it's too complicated. So if you take polymorph and get rid of it, then the average gamer is left unaffected and the powergamer is not. There are a great number of abilities that aren't all that remarkable unless they're cheesed. Taking away those abilities really hits the powergamer where it hurts.

The other way to do things is to limit the number of books being used. Powergamers generally know lots of books, while average gamers don't. So if you narrow the field of choices, casual gamers can at least know all the material and be on somewhat even footing.

The powergamer will always be better, but you greatly reduce the margin of superiority by ditching abilities.

One problem though.

Are you going to ban everything that's non-core?


Really that's the only thing that you have to do. Which solves nothing however since a powergamer will simply play a dwarf cleric or druid.


Really, the average gamers suffer when they have less access to broken material than most powergamers would if they are instead taken aside by the DM and kindly asked : "You know, the rest of the PCs are lagging behind and could prolly use your expertise at making their characters a bit more uber, you have any ideas that they should look at?"


The powergamer will probably have at least one or two good ideas for each PC, or more. Then suggest those same ideas to the group.


Better still, have every player come up with suggestions for other members; have the DM collect these and try to reword the ideas so that they're less obvious as to who wrote what.

In any case, when the DM does something like give the party limited time between adventures to gear up and prep for their next mission, who do you think the spellcasters who are also capable in combat will make gear for?

1. Themselves, b/c they want good gear for survivability

or

2. For other party members, potentially endangering themselves on the next mission?


I can tell you from personal experience, the spellcasters will empower themselves first at every moment.

If you choke them in any way, they become greedy and try to keep every scrap of power for themselves.

If you give them a free hand the value, that costs them nothing (except possibly time) gets handed out to everyone.

Of course, that's only with repsect to limiting an item crafters crafting time between adventures.

If it applies there, it applies everywhere.

[PhoneLobster]

if you take polymorph and get rid of it, then the average gamer is left unaffected and the powergamer is not.

Firstly ain't no such thing as a powergamer, hurting a player is just hurting player. And thats generally pretty bad.

Second you just slice out polymorph and you certainly can add "anyone who wanted a transformy theme" to your list of players who get hurt.

Not to say polymoprh is a great example because it probably hurts those same players if you DON'T take it out as well... But still, you get the idea.

[Judging__Eagle]

Also, polymorph isn't the most broken thing around.

Being a Divine caster in a game without hefty supplements for non-full casters is.

[RandomCasualty]

1170341113[/unixtime]]Also, polymorph isn't the most broken thing around.

Being a Divine caster in a game without hefty supplements for non-full casters is.

I don't know about that. Druids granted are broken (because they use polymorph mechanics!), but if you go with just core stuff, the cleric and druid aren't all that great. Most of the cleric's power comes from supplement books. An all core cleric is ok but not great. Take away persist + divine metamagic (or simply take away nightsticks) and you'll be mostly alright.

[Judging__Eagle]

Except for the fact that you can pick up scribe scroll at... level 1-20 and cast any of your combat buffs whenever you want for almost no cost.

Really, crafting magic items for yourself or others isn't that broken; being able to create and use scrolls is really a hefty power.

No matter how you dice it; scrolls are just as effective as a spell effect, save you spell slots for more GWM or MVs or SoF's and you'll barely notice the gp or xp costs since they are miniscule compared to making an actual magical item.

Crafting a 1/day item of a spell effect can be beaten by simply making 5 scrolls that you can use whenever; plus you now have Gp and XP to make 5 more scrolls of..... 5 other spells.

So, 1 spell a day; or 25 spells whenever you want to use them (at one a round though). Plus, that's probably not even an equivalent cost and by the time I adventure again I'll have enough Gp and Xp to make even more scrolls if I need to make them.

Really, it's sad, but that's the way it is.