Getting your attacks to be touchy

[josephbt]

So, still that Planescape campaign. Got crited for a lot so now i'm playing a rogue.
Since critters out there have a lotta AC, i'm chucking alchemists stuff - acid for most of them, fire for some. Various holy/unholy water bottles for outsiders. So while i'm throwing stuff(will upgrade to a wand of acid splash), it's all dandy. But then i gotta move into melee range and start hitting real ACs.
What can i say, i miss a lot(damn d20). But with a way to get my melee attacks to be toucy, i would be back in bussiness.
So, does anybody know of a cheap way to get melee attacks to be touchy? Wands of wraithstrike are a no-no.

[PhoneLobster]

Buy nets.

You don't need to be proficient.

Its only a -4 penalty so if you circumvent more than 4 points of target armour its PURE PROFIT

Ok, so the net still sucks for several other reasons, but it doesn't require magic and it totally is cheap as dirt.

[josephbt]

Can i sneak attack with something that has damage ---? Is there a barbed version that can deal damage?

[Judging__Eagle]

I think that the idea is that you initiate combat with a net ouf of your Bag of Holding that is full of Nets; entangle a target, and then proceed to stab the fvck out of your now entangled enemy.

Also, reccomend to your allies to pick up nets as well.

Your group's fighter and barbarian will be much more effective if they can Power Attack for lots of their BAB on entangled enemies.


Your squishy arcane casters will probably also pick up a few nets when they realize that they can entangle and lower the speed of anyone who gets too close to them, without burning a spell slot. They could also use a wand of animate rope however.

Nets drop a targets To Hit by 2 and their dex by 4; that's not too shabby actually. Follow it up with a tanglefoot bag that you crafted for 16.66 GP and that's an other drop in your target's AC and mobility.

[josephbt]

More problems with net.
Only 5 hp - anyone can slice through it
I play a halfling - medium size creatures are the largest i'll ever entangle.

Net might be a good answer, but i'm looking for something more permanent and without charges.

[Judging__Eagle]

1168965781[/unixtime]]More problems with net.
Only 5 hp - anyone can slice through it
I play a halfling - medium size creatures are the largest i'll ever entangle.

Net might be a good answer, but i'm looking for something more permanent and without charges.

No, you could use nets that are larger, but that's an other -4 penalty.

Just use large nets and the total -8 will be the same as if you used medium-sized nets. I think, I'm not sure if multiple size penalties stack for weapon use.

The overall HP of the item will improve, plus the nets still have some hardness.


Also, if someone is 'slicing' their way out of a net, that's actually better than a shaved camel.

Think about it. You have completely negated their charge or full attack or spell casting actions.

That's not quite as good as actually killing something really uber-fast, but being able to be an 'opponent juggler' for only the cost of nets is actually quite good.

So, they're damned if they don't cut the nets, and they'll waste part of their round if they do cut the nets.

While you could probably throw one, maybe two nets a round, so that you're really fubarring your enemies.

They will burn less nets than you can throw, while your other party members beat the ever loving crap out of the super-tied up enemy.

Plus, you can always repair the nets with a wand of Unseen Crafter or Mending or Make Whole. So your overall cost will stay pretty low.

[User3]

Getting Wraithstrike without a wand could involve a wizard buddy + ring of spell storing + pearls of power so he can actually cast the spell like 3 times after every combat to recharge you.

You could try Brilliant Energy weapons if Armor and Shield Bonuses are what's ruining your chances.

Or you could get a wand of Divine Power and just hit them more.

[User3]

1168981216[/unixtime]]Getting Wraithstrike without a wand could involve a wizard buddy + ring of spell storing + pearls of power so he can actually cast the spell like 3 times after every combat to recharge you.

You could try Brilliant Energy weapons if Armor and Shield Bonuses are what's ruining your chances.

Or you could get a wand of Divine Power and just hit them more.

Just to note, I don't think you can be an efficient Wraithstrike Wand wielder anymore. A recent sourcebook confirmed that swift action spells via wand take a standard action to activate.

While lots of people find fault with the various sourcebooks issuing rules that override core rules (like the infamous pg. 16 (19?) Complete Warrior rule), everybody in God's creation at WotC, RPGA, and the D&D community in general are following these crazy rules.

[Cielingcat]

Unless that sourcebook was the errata for the DMG, it's still totally legal. The "Primary Source" clause in the errata explicitly declares the DMG the primary source on magic items. The DMG says it takes the time to cast the spell to use an item that uses that spell. Which means they actually need errata to make that "fix".

[User3]

Well, they've apparently decided to stop issuing errata altogether (or at least haven't issued any for, what, years now?), and instead just "clarify" things in the FAQ and via supplements. In other words, they have given up on a complete rules system, and are hoping you can make things work on your own.

[Cielingcat]

I'm honestly not suprised, since they don't even know their own rules by this point.

[Endovior]

Wow... and here I thought nets were useless...

Nice little trick... I'll be sure to remember it.

[User3]

How about a Flaming net made out of Adamantine. Its a touch attack, will do additional damage on a hit (and maybe on sucessive rounds), and since your hit is doing real damage you should get sneak damage on it.

Make the net out of an exotic material like adamantine wire, and you'll get its insane harness and hps.

Failing that, get access to any of the spells that make touch attack weapons and a rather cheap Ring of Minor Spell Storing. Most of the spells that do that are around 2nd level and they come in a variety of damage types, and since the party won't have many fights in a day (2-4 is average) and the spells usually last many round or minutes, you are good to go if you know a friendly party spellcaster and are a reasonable level. I personally like the pBlade of Fear and Pain (Libris Mortis and Spell Compendium) as its untyped damage.

Failing even that, there is a dagger out of one of the Faerun books that is a touch attack weapon. Its essentially a chill touch in dagger form, and is priced appropriately.

Worst case scenario, you can take two levels of that Races of the Dragon PrC that advances sneak dice normally and gives two levels of Sorcerer casting for free, and then cast youtr use Chill Touches.

[Judging__Eagle]

So, just so that I'm clear.

If a rogue makes a touch attack, is it automatically a sneak attack?

Or do they have to also catch someone flat-footed?

So, they target loses.... like all of their AC except for deflection or AC that they keep thanks to uncanny dodge?

Or does it work in some other manner?

My gaming group has a bunch of rogues who will probably be UMDing wands, so they'll have the UMD skill to fire sneaky Scorching Rays if it's worth the effort.

[Zherog]

Touch attacks aren't automatically sneak attacks; you still need to get your target to lose Dex to AC or flank them.

Assuming you caught them without Dex, they'd lose armor, shield, natural armor, Dex, and Dodge bonuses. They'd keep anything else (deflection, size, luck, sacred, etc).

[User3]

If they're UMDing wands already, Grease and Invisibility are both solid ways to deny that dex bonus, although they may want to shell out for Greater Invis.

[josephbt]

I have no problem getting sneak attacks while playing rogues. There are curently so many ways of getting your opponents to lose DEX that i seriously have no problem there.
The problem i have is that i play in a Planescape campaign. The critters have very high nat armors and usually wear some kind of armor also. Add some deflection and dex - the AC gets pretty high. Also factor in the damn d20. Roll a 6 and hit dick.
So basically, i have to get a melee touch weapon that is reusable. I would use wands and stuff, but the DM never got over the fact that AD&D is dead and that we're playing 3.5 edition. He actually uses most of 2nd edition Planescape rules which can lead to some pretty strange and very fvcked up results. So only PHB, DMG and some planescape books.

[erik]

You're really short on options. How are you feeling about taking 1 or 2 sorc or wizard levels, so that you can throw down some daily touch attack spells without use of a wand?

If the reluctance to use wands is due to the 1 attack/round, then this is no help- otherwise, it might find some use. With scribe scroll you could be cheaply making plenty of your own extra slots for daily use.

I dunno your feeling on arcane tricksters, but that would be the jumping in with both feet version of this approach. Not a real option for an already built character tho.

[MrWaeseL]

I would use wands and stuff, but the DM never got over the fact that AD&D is dead and that we're playing 3.5 edition. He frowns upon dwarf wizards and thinks that a +1 sword is pure leetnes. He actually uses most of 2nd edition Planescape rules which can lead to some pretty strange and very fvcked up results. So only PHB, DMG and some planescape books.

Show your DM the bit in the DMG were it says characters are expected to have this much wealth at each level to combat level appropriate threats, and then kick him in the nuts.

[Judging__Eagle]

1169107566[/unixtime]]I have no problem getting sneak attacks while playing rogues. There are curently so many ways of getting your opponents to lose DEX that i seriously have no problem there.
The problem i have is that i play in a Planescape campaign. The critters have very high nat armors and usually wear some kind of armor also. Add some deflection and dex - the AC gets pretty high. Also factor in the damn d20. Roll a 6 and hit dick.
So basically, i have to get a melee touch weapon that is reusable. I would use wands and stuff, but the DM never got over the fact that AD&D is dead and that we're playing 3.5 edition. He frowns upon dwarf wizards and thinks that a +1 sword is pure leetnes. He actually uses most of 2nd edition Planescape rules which can lead to some pretty strange and very fvcked up results. So only PHB, DMG and some planescape books.

What Waesel said.

+1 Sword is leetness, at level 4 or 5.


Too bad that the cleric or Druid has the equivalent of a +2 Keen Greatclub in a Club-sized format at the same level (that scales its damage to a max of 1d6 +10 at lvl 5 (?)), but they only get it for a few hours or minutes at a time.

Just stick with your rogue, max your UMD and buy a Cnadle of Invocation at lvl 10 (be very fvcking sure that you make UMD one of your SKill mastery skills, if not you deserve a skull-fvcking).

UMD the alignment of the candle; then UMD a cleric level; you now cast as your 'assumed' caster level +2.

So,.... maybe as a 20th lvl cleric at lvl 10? It's possible with Magical Aptitude (is that the one that buffs UMD checks by +2) and Skill Focus (UMD); that's +5 there.

Your check should be around....

13 (ranks)
+3 (16 Cha)
+3 Circlet of Persuasion
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Some crappy +2 to two skills feat
+10 Take 10
+5 (item that grants +5 to your UMD skill check, 2,500 gp)
= +36

So, -20 and you emulate an 16th level cleric; and can cast as a 18th level one.

Having decent wisdom will help, try to get at least 19 wis by lvl 10?

Of course, you can also gate in a Noble Djinni (who are truly, infinite in number, even if they are 10% of an other inifiite number of normal djinni) to give you 3 more candles for use later.

So, yeah, cast 9th lvl spells at lvl 10 and who cares? You could probably burn out your spells for that day into gold for a casting service to make a profit off of each Candle of Invocation as well (although, it's prolly better to just get free ones and adventure instead).

The most ridiculous thing about this all?

It's all Core.

Cleric or Druid-zilla my left nut. Rogue-thra is where all the hot kids hang out.

[Zherog]

If your DM puts any value into what the FAQ/Sage Advice says, what Eagle posted won't work.

Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check?

No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit.

I also thought there was a ruling about UMD not allowing you to emulate the ability to cast spells, but I can't find it so it's possible I'm imagining that ruling.

[MrWaeseL]

Since his DM is still living in 2e I doubt he has heard of the sage

[Username17]

Whatever:

When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened.

The Sage can lick my balls. The wording on Skill Mastery is the same as the wording on Deceive Item. So if Skill Mastery doesn't work for UMD, then Deceive Item doesn't work at all, for anything, because it's just Skill Mastery for a single skill: which in turn happens to be UMD.

-Username17

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
The tangent discussion about taking 10 is the proud new owner of its own thread.
[/TGFBS]