Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I really don't like the way repeating crossbows work in 3.5. So, I'm thinking of adding an alteration.

Under the proposed rules, a repeating crossbow as listed in the PHB would not exist.

Instead, "Repeating" would be a strange, most likely gnomish alteration that could be applied to any crossbow and firearm, to make them more like semi-automatic weapons. (Hey, I want gunslingers in my game, dammit! But Repeating crossbows don't work like that, you still have to have a hand free to pull the lever to reload it.)

I was thinking that such a thing should cost a flat gold amount, because I don't think it's good enough for a +X modifier. However, I'm not sure what to set that price.

Another question, do I need to set it different prices for crossbows and firearms? Or is the fact that firearms are already exotic, and require a feat to use plenty price enough?

Anf finally, is there any balance difficulties I am not seeing? I am of the mind that crossbows and firearms are already inferior to bows, due to the lack of Str bonus to hit. Makes them good for weak characters, but stronger characters would want a bow. It seems that that's enough of a problem without the added reload time. But I am fully aware tht I may have missed some obscure rule that breaks it to pieces.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
Draco_Argentum
Duke
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Since you need to reload the crossbow they're still plain worse than bows. If you make the mod so that they can be fired onehanded that'd be okay, but that -4 penalty is pretty nasty. If they were martial weapons with similar price to a comp shortbow they'd be balenced IMO.

The guns will depend on the reload time for the magazine. Will it be a single mag or seperate ones for powder and balls? Is it going to be detachable?
User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

PRetend that I don't have a lot of real world experience with weapons, and say "Reloading a 5 shot magazine takes a full round action"
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
Draco_Argentum
Duke
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Okay then. If you do that to the musket in the 3.0 DMG it would be reasonable as an exotic weapon. The pistol has a pretty small range increment so it needs some form of benefit to truely qualify as exotic. Since you get proficiency for free when you learn the musket it may not be so bad.

Strong people are still going to be better off with might composite bows, unless they want to be snipers. The musket's range increment is rather large.
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by RandomCasualty »

With guns it all depends on if you want to alter your game mechanics to emphasize guns, because you really have to make that choice. As written in the DMG, guns are for chumps. 1d12/x3 with no strength mod... even if you could fire it as fast as a bow, it still sucks. 1d12 averages 6.5 damage per hit. An archer is doing 1d8+his str mod. So if he's got 16 str, he's doing 7.5 damage. Now, it doesn't sound so bad, until you consider that he can improve his strength and his bow, and all you can do is enchant your gun, and his bow is already better than your gun at 1st level. So the power gap is only going to widen. Your only advantage is that you don't have to worry about your strength.

This makes guns, like crossbows, into backup weapons. You carry them around because they do something in addition to what you normally do.

Of course, most people who introduce guns into their games actually want to make them a factor.

I recommend giving them an 18-20/x4 critical. That way they're super deadly against stuff vulnerable to crits, but the bow is a superior weapon normally.

Note that this system is somewhat balance breaking, and against humanoids, there would not be any reason not to use a gun, however it gives the campaign more of a deadly feel, and makes the gunslinger something to be feared, as opposed to some chump too lazy to put points into strength.

User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Hmm . . that's a neat idea, actually. I'll ponder that for a while.

However, not to the extent that you have. I use VP/WP, and 18-20/X4 would translate into (if I'm correct) 14-20 crit.

So basically, it would be superior to everything that's not a construct or undead. I have no problems in making the gun a more attractive choice, but that's a bit much.

In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Username17 »

18-20, x4 is a 3x3 matrix, so it's the equivalent bonus as a 12-20, x2 weapon or a 20, x10 weapon.

Note, however, that since you aren't adding any strength bonus or anything, that it doesn't really matter.

It's a +45% average damage bonus from criticals, which is nice, but since you are talking about a virtually static quantity before criticals, it's just like not having criticals at all and having a damage die about half again as big. At least, over the long haul.

The only reason that the Scimitar is unbalanced is because it gets all the same bonuses as the longsword and benefits 5% more from every point of them (and 50% more from Improved Critical). As your amount of bonuses scale up to the point where 5% of it is more than the basic 1 point of difference between the weapons - the scimitar becomes flat superior.

Guns, under this system, do not gain damage bonuses particularly, so there isn't an event horizon after which you would be retarded to not use one.

-Username17
MrWaeseL
Duke
Posts: 1249
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by MrWaeseL »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1081187651[/unixtime]]18-20, x4 is a 3x3 matrix, so it's the equivalent bonus as a 12-20, x2 weapon or a 20, x10 weapon.


I understand that, but what does the "3x3" matrix have to do with it?
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Username17 »

It's the number of times you crit on out of twenty hits by the number of bonus multiples of damage you do when you do.

So the standard 20, x2 weapon is 1x1 - one critical out of twenty hits and one extra damage multiple when that happens. The longsword is 2x1, and the battle axe is 1x2. Both of them do twice the bonus damage from criticals than is the norm. One by having twice as many crits and the other by having crits which are twice as big.

-Username17
Mole_2
1st Level
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by Mole_2 »

The above is a very useful approximation,
however it assumes a threat is a hit, so for weapons with large threat ranges it will slightly over-estimate their crit-fu.

This old thread here has lots of crit related stuff in it :


RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Price check! On a Repeating Dwarven Rifle?

Post by RandomCasualty »

Count_Arioch_the_28th at [unixtime wrote:1081155927[/unixtime]]Hmm . . that's a neat idea, actually. I'll ponder that for a while.

However, not to the extent that you have. I use VP/WP, and 18-20/X4 would translate into (if I'm correct) 14-20 crit.

So basically, it would be superior to everything that's not a construct or undead. I have no problems in making the gun a more attractive choice, but that's a bit much.


Ok, in VP/WP you probably don't want to do that. One option is to make the crit range something like 20/x4 (yes I'm aware it's VP/WP). This would make a gun something like a vorpal blade, and different from the other weapons because it does huge amounts of damage to your wound points if they get a 20. Basically you're going down if you get hit.

As a PC weapon, they won't be so great really, but your PCs will respect a group of NPCs with muskets a lot more.

If you want it for a true fighting style, I think you'd have to go with a feat intensive system. Basically make guns better than bows, they just take a ton of feats to use properly.

Keep the damage at 1d12/x2. First guns require exotic weapon prof to use. Then create a feat that lets you add your dex bonus to your ranged damage with a gun, and another reload feat to let you get a full attack with them.

Now, as you can see this setup takes a ton of feats... but in the end you'd probably end up a bit better than the archer. At the very least you'd be competetive.
Post Reply