How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

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power_word_wedgie
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1168934598[/unixtime]]pww are you deliberately missing the point? Currently people are either able to spot or not. That just isn't how a classed system works. I don't even have any arguements that RC hasn't made.

We're already forcing a minimum save and hp (in theory since there are ways to bugger that up too) defense skills need to be the same.


The thing is that the rogue has to heavily invest his resources to do this while the fighter has to invest nothing to do so. You can make a fighter that can spot, but you're going to have to invest the resources to do so. It's like having a fighter that has no armor and a non-magical club (the fighter invested all of his resources into potions up to that time). I don't think that this fighter is going to survive in a campaign for long, but that's how the player wanted to invest his resources. As I said earlier, I would have no problem to having the fighter have more skill points.

Classes is D&D have always have their niches. (Wizards are able to cast arcane magic, clerics are able to cast divine magic and turn undead, etc.) It's no more or less fair that a fighter doesn't have these abilities and that rogues get a skills boost. And as Shau mentioned, for a character to bypass the skills detection, it cost around 25 gp to do so. Being able to have access to arcane and divine magic is going to be much greater in price.

I look at it this way: if this was so overbearing, then rogue, monk, and bards would be the most dominant classes in the game. They aren't.
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by Username17 »

PWW, I think you may be deliberately missing the point.

Currently investing skill points isn't like spending gold for a magic sword. It's a lot more like keeping up with spellcaster levels - you have to invest something every level of your whole life or you fall behind the curve.

Except, it's more than that. There's a DC. The DC scales up faster than your level by a substantial margin. And if you don't meet the DC, you don't do anything. It isn't like having crap spellcasting where getting a few spells from the old levels can be diverted into buffs while you do whatever it is that you really do. If you can't Sense Motive against level appropriate foes, you accomplish nothing - it's just like you never had any motive sensing at all.

A Rogue chooses their skills at first level, and then those skills continue to go up every level, but they don't really get any new abilities. They just get offered the chance to not raise their first level skills each level. Fvck that.

Giving a Rogue skill points to assign each level is like giving a Wizard an assignable caster level - sure they could start over from level 1 Sorcerer, but then they'd suck ass.

---

That's the problem. The problem is that for a Skilled character to be simply level appropriate, they really can't abandon the choices they made at first level - and that's crap. When a Rogue gets an empty level it's actually empty. All they get is that they count as one level higher.

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Cielingcat
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by Cielingcat »

So what you could do is make having skills do something no matter how much you have, but you do it better the more you have. Like how Diplomacy has different things it does depending on how well you do, but not like Diplomacy in how it's totaly fvcking broken and unusable.

For example, maybe if you can Hide really well you're totally invisible and people can't see you. If those people have any Spot at all, they can do something. If you're much better than them by an absurd degree, that something is "get a feeling something's there." If they're only a bit below your level, they can see you but not in time, and they don't get to act in the suprise round but aren't flat-footed, and hence aren't screwed by massive sneak attack damage.

Now, don't take any of the examples at face value, since I have no idea what they would do to game balance and was just trying to get my idea across.
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OrionAnderson
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by OrionAnderson »

Actually, Many skills already do work when not maxed out.

You don't need max points in climb, jump, or survival-- mroe is nice, but witha handful of points, you can do cool stuff that stays level-appropriate until magic renders the skill moot.

Open Lock eventually gets high enough to open any lock. It doesn't take much UMD to auto-activate wands.

Most DMs I know don't use the social skills rules as printed, but they do give you some slack in social settings if you invest a few points.

Knowledge needs to stay maxed to idnetify level-appropriate enemies, but in terms of actual *knowledge* not monster-related, it doesn't scale with level.

Concentration gets high enouhg to auto-succeed on cast defensively.

Plus, anything that gives a synergy bonus is worth putting five points in, and speak language is 100% modular.

I'd go so far as to say that skills which you always want to have maxed are the exception, not the rule.
power_word_wedgie
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by power_word_wedgie »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1168978442[/unixtime]]
Currently investing skill points isn't like spending gold for a magic sword. It's a lot more like keeping up with spellcaster levels - you have to invest something every level of your whole life or you fall behind the curve.


But it is just like spending gold for magic sword. If you're 20th level but didn't "invest" in you magic armor and swords keeping a track of it at each level to ensure that your plethora of magic items is at the required level, you will fall behind the curve and your character will eventually die. A character that has only a +1 sword and everything in gems due to his incessant greed isn't going to be a successful character build. (Unless he bribes everyone along the way)

Except, it's more than that. There's a DC. The DC scales up faster than your level by a substantial margin. And if you don't meet the DC, you don't do anything. It isn't like having crap spellcasting where getting a few spells from the old levels can be diverted into buffs while you do whatever it is that you really do. If you can't Sense Motive against level appropriate foes, you accomplish nothing - it's just like you never had any motive sensing at all.


Not if you're dedicating your skills into listen, spot, or have dogs/cohorts/other player characters/magic items/spells that can do the skill for you. It is just like how the fighter can't attempt to counterspell or dispel a magic spell.

A Rogue chooses their skills at first level, and then those skills continue to go up every level, but they don't really get any new abilities. They just get offered the chance to not raise their first level skills each level. Fvck that.


But they do get other skills. If they grow confortable (or just want to bridge out), they can take other skills and start building them up. And, as I said before, each time I have played a rogue, I've never been able to max out *every* skill, or even taken every skill, that looked cool for my character - there's just more skills than there is skill points.

Giving a Rogue skill points to assign each level is like giving a Wizard an assignable caster level - sure they could start over from level 1 Sorcerer, but then they'd suck ass.


But this is somewhat of a red herring - yeah, the spellcaster is getting bonuses at each level, but so are the bonuses to defensive features. (ie saving throws) Like I said earlier, you could make skills like this, but all you're doing is trading in (+20 skill/+0 defensive skill) for (+40 skill/+20 defensive skill) which really doesn't buy anything.

That's the problem. The problem is that for a Skilled character to be simply level appropriate, they really can't abandon the choices they made at first level - and that's crap. When a Rogue gets an empty level it's actually empty. All they get is that they count as one level higher.


But that is most of the game. Fighters can't go out and abandon keeping up their armor and weapons, wizards can't go out and abandon gaining their spells, and the such. If your DM is pitting level appropriate obstacles to your party, everybody is trying to keep up with the curve in their own way to what they think their character needs to have.

That's the beauty of D&D - otherwise, people would just have pre-printed character sheets ebcause everyone would have every base covered. It I make a hit-point inflicting machine and not keep up propping my saving throws to the maximum level that is possible for my character, that can come back and bite me in the butt in the long run. The reverse is exactly possible as well. All I can hope is that each character covers the weakness that other characters have, and thus working together as a team the party can survive. Through all of its incarnations, the game isn't really designed to be a one-person/character game.
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Zherog
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by Zherog »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1168978442[/unixtime]]
A Rogue chooses their skills at first level, and then those skills continue to go up every level, but they don't really get any new abilities. They just get offered the chance to not raise their first level skills each level. Fvck that.


I'm curious to get a look at the "skill tricks" in Complete Scoundrel. From what little I've read, it sounds like it might fill in this hole - giving you something new to do with your skills as your ranks go up.
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by Username17 »

PWW wrote:But it is just like spending gold for magic sword. If you're 20th level but didn't "invest" in you magic armor and swords keeping a track of it at each level to ensure that your plethora of magic items is at the required level...


Then you get a rush of brains to the head and go get them? Or the DM akes pity on you and throws out an artifact sword for you to use?

Wealth is a fungible resource. You don't need to buy up your weapon every time you have the chance, because that's something that you can do later. You can trade magic items, find them in the middle of a game, or even create them (temporarily or permanently).

Once you throw down skill points, it's for life. And if you don't have your skills at level appropriate levels, you're pretty much not level appropriate for ever.

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Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: How about we NOT make it a feat, you clown?

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

That's an exaggeration. I've played games where I dump a large amount of my skill points for the level into a skill I had previously ignored for one reason or another. It doesn't leave you far enough behind on other skills that you wind up hurting in the short term, and since, as Orion said, many skills don't actually NEED to be maxed out to do what you need it to do it's not that hard to catch back up. I know this, because I've done it.

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