How overpowered is two-handed fighting?

[Lago_AM3P]

Right now, here's the massive advantages of two-handed weapons to other common melee combat styles, like two-weapon fightins' and sword and board. To speak nothing of weird alternative methods like druid multiarmed fighting, hardcore grapplers, and the sucky suck monk's flurry scheme.

- It's the cheapest out of all of the styles right now.
- You get the biggest modifiers ever when resisting and initiating disarm and sunder checks.
- Unlike a shield, you do not have to ready a shield.
- You have a spare hand for actions in combat like pulling out your throwing axe or a 22 strength picking up the wizard off of the ground.
- It costs almost no feats to get up and running--though shield proficiency is pretty much handed out to everyone who wants it.
- You gain the most out of any bonus attacks granted in the game, such as attacks of opportunity, haste, BAB, recitation, etc.
- Much less multiple stat-demanding than two-weapon fighting.
- You gain the most out of modifiers that change your attack rolls in combat, such as fighting defensively (bleh), combat expertise, or especially power attack.

Disadvantages:

- You get screwed the most if you have the misfortune to be caught in a grapple or if you're unable to use your weapon.
- Weighs more, costs more to start out with--though you see your first massive savings when magic weapons come out.
- Not as concealable.


With that all said and done, does anyone feel that in 3.5E, with attacks of opportunity being more a staple of combat than they were before and power attack getting a huge massive fscking boost, two-handed fighting is a wee bit overpowered?

[Username17]

Two Handed Fighting is massively superior to Two Weapon Fighting. That's not even close.

Two Handed Fighting also does an abusive amount of damage - especially when you apply it to things like mounted combat and trip fighting which can increase your attacks - multiply your total dmage - or both.

However, Sword and Board is not out of the running. At the extreme end, shield fighting is still "better" against other combatants in that a +7 AC means that you will last longer in melee than doing more damage will drop your enemies faster will matter.

Against people who aren't "attacking you" - such as spellcaster enemies - then the two handed weapon is crazy over powered.

And indeed, since most people don't play on the extreme end - where the bonuses from shields will still be kind of small - two handed weapons are flat too good. Remember, however, that the two-handed weapon bonus scales somewhat by level, but the shield bonus blocks a greater percentage of attacks as your level goes up. So in the long run, the shield is always better. Still, if you are talking about characters level 3 through 8 - then the answer to your question is almost certainly yes.

-Username17

[User3]

Add in Karmic Strike insanity for Barbarian types, and you actually have some characters that opponents will be loathe to hit in the first place.

You also have TWF using a THF weapon and Spiked Armor. Which also costs nothing. And does indeed pay off if you are a Rogue/Fighter with high strength and auxiliary bonus damage.

[User3]

What about animated shields? They're fairly cheap, and once you've got access to them do they not make Sword and Board obsolete?

[Essence]

I agree with the Guest. THF is not exclusive with S&B. Neither if TWF. But THFers can actually afford the animated shield, which TWFers generally cannot.

Falchion+Animated Tower Shield is still less expensive than Rapier x2, does equitable damage under most circumstances, and has more AC.

Falchion +Animated Tower Shield is as expensive as Battleaxe+Tower Shield, has equitable AC under most circumstances, and does more damage.

Basically, there's almost no reason NOT to be a THF&B fighter other than, well, not being a fighter.

[Naar]

Improved Buckler Defence from Complete Warrior would also seem to allow you to use a buckler with a two-handed weapon, at the cost of -1 to hit.

[Judging__Eagle]

Uhm, I know this is some pretty bad thread necromancy, but THF make TWF suck even more.
(using Frank's semantics that something sucks if something else using a different mechanic can replicate or surpass that original mechanic's possible results)

Since just b/c you use a 2-handed weapon doesn't mean you can't use an off-hand weapon as well as your greatsword/falchion/halbeard.

An extention on the fighter using a greatsword and a animated towersheild above:

He can also TWF. If he gets armour spikes/razors (a case could be made for adding in a Imp Unarmed Strike a level of monk for a bludgeouning attack as well) he can now TWF with these as offhand attacks.

So, the THF can: deal more damage than a TWFer due to better weapon selection and can benefit from being able to use off-hand weapons.

I know that my barbarian in a WLD campaign is abusing a war-chain and armour spikes/razors and metal gauntlets or boots to have both THF damage and TWF number of bonus attacks. It's really handy since I can attack with reach and tangle with things both beside me or on the other side of an ally beside me.

Really, I'm doing this to abuse the 'add your BaB to damage, but provoke an AoO' portion of the 'Blitz' feat out of Races of War, but it's a more effective compromise to pick up the TWF feat over Hordebreaker or Whirlwind (so far at least).

Mostly b/c I (when soloing) or the group often facing single extremely tough foes. Where cleaving is useless once the big heavy is dead the combat is over and whirlwinding is useless since there's only one target and I can't really use the spring attack eature since I used to be the main taink (edit: although, maybe, with the ogre PC, I could get Whirlwind over Great Fort), so four attacks at lvl 6 is definately better.

I will pick up Whirlwind and Hordebreaker later on (lvl's 9 and 12; I picked up Great Fortitide for the boost to my saves, HP and at lvl 11 it will give my DR a boost that I will really need). With those two I could probably plow through a near infinite amount of mooks.

Of course, that's using THF over TWFing. So, unless you encourage all TWFers to use whip daggers or Kusari-Gamas, THF will still win out.

[RandomCasualty]

Half the problem with THF is that you can get all the benefits of TWF and/or sword and board if you just get an animated shield or armor spikes. People who use TWF or sword and board can't get your benefits though.

So you get the best of both worlds with THF.

[MrWaeseL]

1079951931[/unixtime]]Improved Buckler Defence from Complete Warrior would also seem to allow you to use a buckler with a two-handed weapon, at the cost of -1 to hit.

Wait, that costs a feat as well now?

Times were strapping on a buckler meant a -1 to hit with weapons using the hand the buckler was on. None of this feat bullshit.

[Sir Neil]

You can do that, WaeseL, but you lose the shield bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand. IBD lets you keep it.

[Leress]

1168786869[/unixtime]]You can do that, WaeseL, but you lose the shield bonus if you use the weapon in your off hand. IBD lets you keep it.

But you still have the -1 to hit because it has the extra weight on your arm.

[Judging__Eagle]

So, in any case, you still will use the Falchion, Armour Spikes/Razors, Gauntlets/Boots and an Animtated Tower Sheild if you're a Sword and Board, Two-Weapon ot Two-Handed fighter.

Mostly b/c you get the best off all three types.

Damage from THF

Bonus Weapon Attacks from TWF

and a Big freaking sheild to negate blows like Sword and Board.

Although, you do lose a bit of your sheilds defense since Animated is a +3 enchancement.

[bitnine]

1168892715[/unixtime]]So, in any case, you still will use the Falchion, Armour Spikes/Razors, Gauntlets/Boots and an Animtated Tower Sheild if you're a Sword and Board, Two-Weapon ot Two-Handed fighter.

Or if you're THF and really want to dip monk, you can use your body for unarmed strikes with your hands full and use a greatsword as you whip people about with your wang with the added bonus of having a offhand weapon that still benefits from power attack thanks to being an unarmed attack. Mebbe not worth pursuing as an end in itself, but if you happen to be using a build that includes monk, something to keep in mind.

[dbb]

1168892715[/unixtime]]
Although, you do lose a bit of your sheilds defense since Animated is a +3 enchancement.

Only if you can't talk the Cleric into casting Magic Vestment on it.

--d.

[Judging__Eagle]

1168893336[/unixtime]]

1168892715[/unixtime]]So, in any case, you still will use the Falchion, Armour Spikes/Razors, Gauntlets/Boots and an Animtated Tower Sheild if you're a Sword and Board, Two-Weapon ot Two-Handed fighter.

Or if you're THF and really want to dip monk, you can use your body for unarmed strikes with your hands full and use a greatsword as you whip people about with your wang with the added bonus of having a offhand weapon that still benefits from power attack thanks to being an unarmed attack. Mebbe not worth pursuing as an end in itself, but if you happen to be using a build that includes monk, something to keep in mind.

Actually, those builds who dip fighter and then play as a monk who uses a polearm for reach and unarmed strikes when people get in close isn't too uncommon.

1168907314[/unixtime]]

1168892715[/unixtime]]
Although, you do lose a bit of your sheilds defense since Animated is a +3 enchancement.

Only if you can't talk the Cleric into casting Magic Vestment on it.

--d.

Yeah, but it depends; you will probably have to buy your cleric a Pearl of Power for a G MV though. They usually will cast the spell on themselves if they're smart.

Most players in my group have embraced the mindset that I showed them with my librarian/battle-monster archivst:

"Divine Casters get to kick booty; if you get yourself killed in a stupid manner, go fvck your hat because I'm not gonna heal ya'."

Seven levels of the Archvisit and Cleric having as much (if not, more, really it's usually more) thunder as the melee characters has proven that much.

So, now our WLD campaign is made up of... 2 druids, 2 clerics, and a bunch of rogues who plan on UMDing scorching ray wands. I wanted to play something easy, so I picked up K/Frank's Barbarian. The problem is that I can rip anything apart with my spiked chain (literally, I've got a string of solo-kills of monsters my PCs CR that is quite long)


.... I just realized that our group's rogues should have infinite charge wands of Frost Ray and Acid Splash; they could sneak attack with touch attacks at a low cost. That opens up a new set of options for them.