Non-corporeal characters...?

[Crissa]

A long and fruitless discussion I had with Frank a couple years ago dealt with ghosts in D&D games. Specifically how they're very under-used, and his point was that in the basic rules they're very overpowered. Of course, it's something he's never promised a Frank and K version of, either.

So I'm wondering how shades and non-corporeal critters could be used in a game to make them viable NPCs and PCs without just being super-powerful.

What would you think makes them unviable now?

[RandomCasualty]

1167048401[/unixtime]]A long and fruitless discussion I had with Frank a couple years ago dealt with ghosts in D&D games. Specifically how they're very under-used, and his point was that in the basic rules they're very overpowered. Of course, it's something he's never promised a Frank and K version of, either.

So I'm wondering how shades and non-corporeal critters could be used in a game to make them viable NPCs and PCs without just being super-powerful.

What would you think makes them unviable now?

Well, I'm going to separate this into NPC and PC outlooks since both of them are rather different.

NPCs

The main problem with ghosts is that right now, they're not incorporeal, they're ethereal. Also, ghosts are pretty weak. Their only uber attack is Malevolence, which is totally overpowered, but if you take that away, they suck. But basically allowing ghosts to possess stuff from the ethereal plane is super powerful because there's nothing you can do to fight them if you don't have very specific spells.

PCs

As a PC, the ghost has a lot of problems. Again, being ethereal is problematic, becuase it's tough to stop ethereal creatures from doing whatever the hell they want. Just running around magic jarring everything through Malevolence would make the PC effectively invulnerable. He could scout the entire dungeon while ethereal and map it out. And there are few if any monsters who can fight against that, aside from high level wizards with the proper spells.

Next, equipment reasons. Ghosts only get a few peices of equipment, and can't use new stuff they find. That's problematic since D&D is so equipment based. How would a wizard learn new spells for instance?

Even while manifesting, ghosts are incorporeal. Incoproreal itself is a very powerful ability against monsters, because if they dont' have DR magic or spell like abilities, they can't hurt the ghost at all. That means that many low to mid level quests can simply be the ghost scouting while ethereal, then manifesting in the final room and completeing the objective that way. Incorporeal generall falls in the list of things no PC should have until very high in levels, because if the enemies don't have the rare means to fight it, they lose.

[Lago_AM3P]

The main problem with ghosts is that right now, they're not incorporeal, they're ethereal. Also, ghosts are pretty weak. Their only uber attack is Malevolence, which is totally overpowered, but if you take that away, they suck. But basically allowing ghosts to possess stuff from the ethereal plane is super powerful because there's nothing you can do to fight them if you don't have very specific spells.

I'm not quite sure about that.

I think the biggest problems with ghosts are their low CR as a template.

I mean, it's a CR 2 template, right? So say that the appropriate highlight of a low-level CR 5 mystery is that you go into a haunted mansion and fight a ghost level 1 commoner and her ghost cat.

The problem is that the party is probably going to get completely owned. Both of the ghosts can throw out a pretty dangerous partywide save-or-be-dead. Then there's the matter that the cat will probably own you on a full attack and either of them might be able to throw down a violent thrust version of telekinesis that will kill you depending on background scenery!

But as RC pointed out, despite its initial uberness, the ghost template quickly becomes useless. If it wasn't for the etherealness it wouldn't even be worth increasing the CR of a ghost.

[Crissa]

Frank pointed out that non-corporeal in D&D have two distinct advantages that make them overly-powerful: Immune to damage and immune to terrain. This is a gross oversimplification of what he said, of course, but it's the basic point.

I'd like to make the spirit or shadow world (if we're going to have one) an interesting place - well, maybe not interesting, but at least adventureable. That means I probably should think about the kinda of ghosts and non-corporeal critters I'd like in the game.

Ghosts: Advice-givers, local color, or dearly departed. This includes spirits like those in 'An American Werewolf' to Wu-ya in Xiolin Showdown. They can't touch anything, effect anything, do anything except yak. They don't make very interesting PCs, though might work as scouts, support units.

Spirits: Yeah, yeah, but maybe trees can talk because they have spirits that live in them? There are myths with even rocks talk because they have spirits within - places, things, animals and plants can have a non-corporeal halve as well.

Fae: Tiny or otherwise insignificant corporeal characters end up with similar advantages as non-corporeal characters. This is why we don't like Windlings and pixies and imps in our player parties!

To be characters, they need to be able to interact with the world - be visible to a significant number of people; restricted in access to places just like any member of a PC party; they need to be able to be reasonably rendered harmless by the same threats as the PCs; and they need to have material needs - not literally, but mechanically - that are understood in the game.

Even Miyoga needs blood and safety.

So how do we do this?

[dbb]

Ghosts are playable characters in Feng Shui, which is somewhat similar in feel to the D&D style of adventure. They get a couple of different powers from a selection of appropriate ghost-like abilities, and have the disadvantage of requiring someone with a very specific skill to heal them. To the degree this works, it works because:

1> They don't have much in the way of offense that compares to the more combat-focused (martial artist, insane sorcerer, redeemed assassin, etc.) type characters;
2> They don't get enough powers selections to be invulnerable to all the types of damage they're likely to encounter; and
3> Being Insubstantial and having Flight aren't nearly as awesome in this game as they are in D&D (specifically, Insubstantial doesn't make you immune to damage -- you have to pick that up separately -- and Flight is much less awesome in a game where the enemy is very likely to either have a .44 Magnum or be able to leap 100' in the air).

So that's one method. Ultimately, it depends on what you want out of ghosts in your game. Is it okay if they just float above the ground, rather than having full flight, and if they just pass through solid objects, rather than being invulnerable to most forms of ordinary damage? If so, then you have a much easier balancing task ahead of you than otherwise.

"Ghostwalk" had some interesting ideas, but ultimately I don't think it's going to take you where you want to go. I could be wrong about that, though.

--d.

[MrWaeseL]

Next, equipment reasons. Ghosts only get a few peices of equipment, and can't use new stuff they find.

Ghosts have no strength (not zero strength, no strength), so they can't even carry equipment. Not even a single ring.

Incoproreal itself is a very powerful ability against monsters, because if they dont' have DR magic or spell like abilities, they can't hurt the ghost at all.

DR magic can't hurt incorporeal creatures, since it doesn't make natural attacks magic. It just lets them punch through other magic DR.

[Crissa]

Incoproreal itself is a very powerful ability against monsters, because if they dont' have DR magic or spell like abilities, they can't hurt the ghost at all.

That seems more a problem of the challenges rather than incorporeal...

-Crissa

[Modesitt]

That seems more a problem of the challenges rather than incorporeal...

No, it's a problem of incorporeal. What would you do to fix the challenges? Give werewolves, dragons, and zephyrs the inexplicable ability to attack incorporeal beings?

[Crissa]

1167180664[/unixtime]]

That seems more a problem of the challenges rather than incorporeal...

No, it's a problem of incorporeal. What would you do to fix the challenges? Give werewolves, dragons, and zephyrs the inexplicable ability to attack incorporeal beings?

...

Yes.

If all parties are expected to be able to take on such a threat, then other threats deemed worthy to take on the party should be able to deal with it in some way as well.

On one hand, you have the 'puzzle monster' - it has some special defense or offense.

But the Party is a 'puzzle monster' too. It has many offenses and defenses. The mere fact that most of your challenges can be defeated by a single status effect probably means your challenges just aren't challenges.

Which brings us back to the Windling Problem.

-Crissa

[dbb]

The difference between "give lots of things the ability to attack incorporeal creatures" and "tone down ghost incorporeality so more things can affect it" seems to me to be pretty small.

The mere fact that most of your challenges can be defeated by a single status effect probably means your challenges just aren't challenges.

Well, either that or the status effect is overpowered -- or both. Most of the challenges in a D&D game amount to "beat these people up before they can do the same to you". If you want to keep those as challenges, you can't very well have a character with the power "immune to being beaten up by almost everyone", but whether that means you take the game in a less beat-up-centric direction, or change the character's power, is an individual question.

The D&D mechanics aren't particularly well suited to a combat-light game, though, so I'd tend to go in the latter direction -- or else switch to a different system entirely. If you don't want to do either of those, you're likely to need some fairly extensive surgery on the game.

--d.

[shau]

I am not sure if having certain monsters being unable to hurt an incorporal character is that much of a problem, especially at low levels. If a tiger can't attack the party ghost, it still has an average of three more party members to attack. So really the ghost's invlunerability does not come into play, unless the tiger manages to kill the other party members, at which point it has probably done all it needs to do to be considered a significant encounter. If the whole party is made of ghosts, then the DM needs to realize it is not really an appropriate encounter. Or the party gets an easy win, which is not too bad of a consequence.

[erik]

1167147337[/unixtime]]

Next, equipment reasons. Ghosts only get a few peices of equipment, and can't use new stuff they find.

Ghosts have no strength (not zero strength, no strength), so they can't even carry equipment. Not even a single ring.

Not quite that simple. They retain some ethereal copies which they take with them to the ethereal plane.

So no naked ghosts for you (unless they get grave-robbed, or somesuch)!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm

Ghostly Equipment
When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).

The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away. This loss invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place.

[Modesitt]

The difference between "give lots of things the ability to attack incorporeal creatures" and "tone down ghost incorporeality so more things can affect it" seems to me to be pretty small.

One of those solutions involves editing every entry in the MM.

One of those solutions involves editing one entry in the MM.

Guess which one I prefer?

[dbb]

It's not hard to guess which one you prefer. (That's also the one I prefer, as is surely obvious.)

Crissa seemed to be leaning in the other direction.

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

1167200057[/unixtime]]
But the Party is a 'puzzle monster' too. It has many offenses and defenses. The mere fact that most of your challenges can be defeated by a single status effect probably means your challenges just aren't challenges.

No, the party actually can't be a puzzle monster. The party is a group of puzzle solvers.

Monsters just don't have the depth and array of abilities PCs have. And that's a good thing, because a DM is expected to run several of them. A DM just cant keep track of that many abilities all at once. Also, not all monsters can even think. You've got plenty of monsters that are just dumb beasts. Dire wolves, hydras, wyverns, etc.

You should never be handing the party abilities that say "If monsters X can't counter, it automaticaly loses."

Once you allow that stuff, then PC design simply becomes a matter of loading up wtih a bunch of obscure puzzle abilities and hoping the monsters can't counter them all.

[Crissa]

1167249981[/unixtime]]You've got plenty of monsters that are just dumb beasts. Dire wolves, hydras, wyverns, etc.

Except...

...A single PC with a bow sitting in a tree has the same advantage as a single PC who's incorporeal. Dumb beast can't get them, and dumb beast can't counter their damage.

Maybe dumb beasts aren't really good challenges, eh?

-Crissa

[Crissa]

Well, some ideas:

Foci:
Many stories have things that such non-corporeal critters need: Be it a Dryad's tree, an imp's urn, or maybe the spirit is guarding a shrine. This limits their abilities to wander off from the object - an object that they themselves cannot always move, and certainly not with their abilities. For a ghost, maybe they can't travel far from their remains, or from the person they're attached to.

Mechanically, this can be something they can't hide (the imp's urn), or move (spirit and a shrine). It could be used to limit their perception checks or skill checks the further they are from it. Or the distance from it could be treated like line-of-effect for spells.

Sutras, seals:
Traditionally, most homes and buildings were built with blessings and designs incorporated into them that 'protected' them from evil spirits. Like Frank's 'thick walls defeat line of effect' reasoning for dungeons - this could be why non-corporeal characters cannot merely spy anywhere without trouble. Walls or buildings built with this in mind would defeat most sneaking or even entering through walls!

Natural defenses:
Temporally, many undead or spirits were caught in a manner of timelessness - that's why vampires don't age. But it's also why they couldn't cross water: It moves, and they could only cross that which didn't move, or didn't express time. In fact, that's why most ghosts could walk through walls: They could walk along paths that existed while they were alive. Anything alive, or built after they were, would be intangible or even invisible to the spirit!

This could limit the usefulness of a non-corporeal character - as they move away from the party, or their foci, or whatever, they could only see the world as an empty hazy version of what it was while they were alive. If a path diverged since, they'd follow the old one!

Of course... I still don't have a solution to the Windling problem.

[RandomCasualty]

1167259373[/unixtime]]
Except...

...A single PC with a bow sitting in a tree has the same advantage as a single PC who's incorporeal. Dumb beast can't get them, and dumb beast can't counter their damage.

This is an awful analogy. People sitting in a tree cannot: advance the adventure, retreat or even really move anywhere. So the wolf or hydra or whatever hides in the trees behind cover (where he can't get attacked) and waits the guy in the tree out. He has to come down sometime. Plus the guy needs time to climb the tree where the dire wolf or whatever can potentially chew him up. Even if he gets up there, he creates a stalemate. Animals are smart enough to wait out a character behind cover.

Not to mention, mostof the game takes place in dungeons, so tree climbing probably isn't an option unless the DM places a climbable archery platform in the dungeon. Incorporeals don't need terrain, they can use their ability anywhere and it's always on. Incorporeals can go through walls and continually chase down monsters.

They don't create stalemates like tree archers do, they create autovictories.

Maybe dumb beasts aren't really good challenges, eh?

OK, we can generally forget this train of thought, because dumb beasts are a staple of fantasy.

If you want to make them PC playable, basically you've got to take away the incorporeality. They just can't have it. Sure, tehy can appear incorporeal and transparent, but they have to be attackable by anything, much like an air elemental. PCs just aren't meant to be one trick pony puzzle monsters.

What I would do is create a ghost class from levels 1-20. At first, your spiritual sight is real hazy, so you can't scout much and your only ability is materialization and you require some kind of weak spell to let you materialize (like a 0 level cantrip that the party wizard or cleric can cast).

As a special ability you can always choose to dematerialize as a standard action, sending you back to the spirit realm. As you gain levels in the ghost class you start getting abilities like DR X/magic, invisiblity, better spirit sight for recon, maybe some kind of draining touch attack, and so on. Eventually at like level 15 or so you can get true incorporeality. I'm sure you can come up with a collection of abilities to fill a 1-20 progression for a ghost class.

YOu can give them a bit more ghost flavor by having them have few hp, but when reduced to 0 hp, they don't die, they just dematerialize and can be brought back after they've healed. perhaps a dematerialized ghost has fast healing or something. Of course, the materialized ghost can still lose any equipment he was carrying, so mass materialized suicide runs may not be practical.

Really though, handing out true incorp can't come until much later in level, because effectively you're giving out an ability that lets a character fire away at most monsters from a shield of invulnerability.

The ideas you came up with for foci and natural defenses probably arne't going to work. The foci idea is simply a matter of carrying around your focus with you, or you're screwed. So either you can carry it and it has no effect, or you can't carry it and thus you can't adventure. The same goes for warded buildings against spirits. It won't be much fun if your PC can't enter a structure at all. In general, anything that could exclude a PC from an entire adventure is not a viable solution in an RPG and while your fixes are interesting and flavorful, they just wouldn't work for PC characters (though they would make for some itneresting NPCs of course).

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Hey, RC. Um, I dunno about you, but to me a guy with a ranged weapon in a tree being attacked by a persistant creature with no ranged capability whatsoever sounds like "an autovictory". It's the whole 'I can hurt you, you can't hurt me' thing.

-Desdan

[Crissa]

I don't think RC is actually reading my posts, Desdan.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1167269018[/unixtime]]Hey, RC. Um, I dunno about you, but to me a guy with a ranged weapon in a tree being attacked by a persistant creature with no ranged capability whatsoever sounds like "an autovictory". It's the whole 'I can hurt you, you can't hurt me' thing.

OK, no it's not, because the creature doesn' have to just sit there and take fire, it can very well just go hide behind another tree as to be under total cover. Then it becomes a waiting game, since the creature in the tree must climb down before it can do anything. So as I said, it creates a stalemate.

The disadvantage of being up in a tree is that you can't move and can't advance the quest. So while you may be safe for the time being, you're prevented from accomplishing your goals for as long as you want to remain as a cowardly archer in a tree.

[shau]

If you do the whole climb up the tree and shoot arrows thing, you have won. The dire wolf will eventually run off so there's a good chance you will ot kill the thing, but once it has retreated it is not coming back. It has learned you are a painful creature that it cannot retaliate against. It is not going to wait behind the big rock for you to come down, so that you can climb a tree and start shooting it again. There is no stalemate here.

I still say that the interesting question is whether or not everyone in the party are tree climbers. If everyone but the weak mage makes their climb checks to get up the tree, then the dire wolf gets to focus on the weakest member of the party.

[dbb]

The whole notion of dealing with dumb animals is a red herring. If you're permitting ghosts in your campaign, there's good odds you're permitting something as basic as horse archers, which will kill a dire wolf just as dead without any supernatural nonsense at all.

Dumb things aren't challenges for smart things, unless the smart things are operating under severe time pressure or resource limitations.

I don't entirely understand what you mean by "the Windling problem"; as I read it, that's the problem that incorporeal creatures have similar advantages to really small, inconspicuous things in a PC party? Which of the advantages that ghosts in particular gain are the ones that are likely to be most problematic for your campaign?

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

1167281852[/unixtime]]If you do the whole climb up the tree and shoot arrows thing, you have won. The dire wolf will eventually run off so there's a good chance you will ot kill the thing, but once it has retreated it is not coming back. It has learned you are a painful creature that it cannot retaliate against. It is not going to wait behind the big rock for you to come down, so that you can climb a tree and start shooting it again. There is no stalemate here.

I still say that the interesting question is whether or not everyone in the party are tree climbers. If everyone but the weak mage makes their climb checks to get up the tree, then the dire wolf gets to focus on the weakest member of the party.

Yeah, well exactly. climbing requires checks. Where some of your companions may not get up the tree in time. ALso, climbing requires proximity to a tree, and requires an action. Incorporeality doesn't require any of that. It's always on. It works on flying creatures as well as ground based creatures.

In the round it takes you to climb up, you won't also be able to fire, meaning the wolf can just run for cover or whatever. This isn't neverwinter nights, this is a DM running the creatures with some degree of intelligence. They don't have to just sit at the base of the tree and let you snipe them.

Also, even if the creature is capable of hitting an incorporeal (it has magic weapons), the incorp still gets a 50% miss chance versus attacks and area effects. And all without spending an action, without requiring specific terrain and without requiring you win initiative. And we haven't even got into people hiding inside of walls and launching attacks from them.

Don't kid yourselves, incorporeality is ungodly powerful for a PC to have.

My best advice is to simulate a ghost using the following abilities:

-Invisibility (disappear from sight, seemingly appear out of nowhere)
-Blink (walk through walls)

That way you're doing ghosty things and not screwing with game balance.