What all mods go into a grapple?

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Lago_AM3P
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What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by Lago_AM3P »

This confuses me heavily. So far, it's written to suggest that the only standard bonuses you get for grappling is strength + BAB + size modifier. But it's LIKE an attack roll, too; do stupid things like luck and morale bonuses from nature's favor and nature's avatar count?

Because if this is the case, then druids will be the grappling COMMANDER. Unfortunately, my DM has banned all non-PHB spells, so maybe it'll just be the cleric.
Lago_AM3P
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Or will this just end up being an unsolved mystery?

Too bad; I just had an idea where a druid could become the grapple COMMANDER.
Username17
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by Username17 »

You pretty much summed up the debate in the first post.

It is not at all obvious whether luck bonuses, morale bonuses, and competence bonuses to attack rolls apply to grapple checks or not.

That question has never been satisfactorily resolved, and probably never will be.

It's "like a melee attack roll", whether that means "enough like a melee attack roll for a bonus to all attack rolls to add in" or "enough not like a melee attack roll for bonuses to all attack rolls to not add in" is up in the air. I honestly have no idea and have seen in print people use it both ways.

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RandomCasualty
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by RandomCasualty »

I've lately run into this problem and am equally stumped, though my problem isn't so much with combat bonuses, but rather with TWF and flurry of blows.

A monk uses TWF and flurry of blows and tries to use some or all of his attacks to start a grapple. We know the flurry and TWF penalties apply to the touch attack to try to start the grapple, but do they actually influence the grapple check, or does only the base iterative attack used influence it. Does this effectively mean you can try to start a grapple more times than you'd normally be able to?

If the monk succeeds on the grapple, say on his offhand attack, what happens then? Since he can no longer flurry or TWF once in a grapple, how do you figure out if he can further try for a pin or what and again if so, at what penalties?

I've run into the same problem with monsters with improved grab too. If a creature improved grabs and grapples with the first claw attack for instance, can it still use the other claw and bite or are those just dead attacks now that it's in a grapple?
Username17
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by Username17 »


I've run into the same problem with monsters with improved grab too. If a creature improved grabs and grapples with the first claw attack for instance, can it still use the other claw and bite or are those just dead attacks now that it's in a grapple?


That, at least, is clear.

The natural weapons rules prevent you from attacking with your weapons more than once each, the grapple rules prevent you from getting multiple attacks with multiple natural weapons.

Once in a grapple, a creature with multiple attacks loses out big time - improved grab is one of the most explosive non-abilities ever on the vast majority of creatures which have it (excluding giant snakes/purple worms of course).

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Leaves you wondering why they bother giving things Improved Grab, since all it does is let a monster trade in a cool attack routine for one sucky attack a round.
RandomCasualty
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by RandomCasualty »

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1080758476[/unixtime]]Leaves you wondering why they bother giving things Improved Grab, since all it does is let a monster trade in a cool attack routine for one sucky attack a round.


Well, couldn't a monster with +6 or higher BaB still take normal iterative attacks, since it's no longer using its natural weapons and now using iterative grapples?

After all the only reason it loses those iterative attacks normally is because it's using the natural attack routine which prevents iterative strikes. Once grappling it's using a normal attack form which would enable it to get iterative grapples.
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Debatable at best. I houserule it that way, but how does the monster attack iteratively? The monster is, by definition, using its improved grab ability. IG depends on a hit with a natural weapon, and so is a use of a natural weapon. When using natural weapons, it can't attack iteratively. That seems like about the end of the story to me. For example, a bear using improved grab (or improved grapple, big dif) is grappling with its claws, a natural weapon.
RandomCasualty
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by RandomCasualty »

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1080785657[/unixtime]]Debatable at best. I houserule it that way, but how does the monster attack iteratively?


Well, when you're in a grapple you're not really using natural weapons. it's not an attack, its a grapple check, you aren't technically using a weapon... you don't need to use a weapon for instance to pin somebody. And anything that has +6 or better BaB should get iterative grapples.

Username17
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Re: What all mods go into a grapple?

Post by Username17 »

Well, when you're in a grapple you're not really using natural weapons.


Actually, you are. You get to attack with one of your natural weapons or light weapons with a -4 attack penalty.

Alternately, you get to perform an opposed grapple check to inflict unarmed damage - which is always subdual. How much damage that would be is entirely unclear, however.

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