General question about playing animals.

[Tokorona]

For an short plot in something I'm thinking about playing say, a tiger. Now I know to make one intelligant, you pretty much want ot have a tiger + Maximized Awaken done, but that is 8 HD, a figure that may be too high. Is it a good idea to simply use a SS progression, or?

[erik]

Asking for Maximized Awaken is a little over the top.

A vanilla awakened tiger is about equivalent to an ninth level prestige-classed melee combatant. In fact with equal equipment, I'd be liable to put my money on the tiger still.

Sooo, probably not the best thing for a campaign that is starting at level 1 if that is what you're looking at. If you're starting out at 8th or so then that should be fine and dandy.

I don't have Savage Species so I can't comment on how their progression looks for tigers (though I expect I would be disappointed with it).

[User3]

The rules for playing monstrous characters are b0rked because the classes are not balanced. The real question is: what level are you playing at, and what balance point do you want?

Unless you've changed wild shape, keep in mind that an 8th-level druid can just turn into a tiger and get all the best abilities (pounce, improved grapple, ability bonuses, natural weapons), while keeping their own racial special qualities, the better saves, and oh yeah, full spell-casting. On the other hand, compared to a multiclassed barbarian/fighter/ranger/whatever, the awakened tiger is probably better: chances are it has better to-hit and damage and fewer (but better) combat options, but worse saves and defenses in general. (Given wealth-by-level, so the multiclassed meleer has 8th-level equipment and the awakened tiger has little to no equipment.) The druid is obviously better, so if anything, the tiger should have a negative LA, but if you do that, any people playing ordinary meleers will be overshadowed.

Thus, it depends on the party composition and how optimized the other characters are.

[Tokorona]

THe average optimization is mehish. Two people are completely new, howeverl one was built with expert help, the expert help has a half-dragon SS Progression (at level 3) And we have a well built cleric.

Generally, though, I was trying to makea Maxmized Tiger to build a race progression off. (because they have sucky Will saves, and yeahh. Being CR 4-6 and HD 8 is a "...???")

[erik]

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The druid is obviously better, so if anything, the tiger should have a negative LA, but if you do that, any people playing ordinary meleers will be overshadowed.

That isn't immediately obvious. I could be wrong, but I thought that you had full BAB when converted into a magical beast in that fashion. So the awakened tiger has a better attack bonus than the druid, and also should have much better stats than the wildshaped druid, since I was assuming the tiger would roll his stats since he's a player character.

Granted, a tiger-druid's spellcasting will blow the tiger out of the water, but that is mostly natural spell's fault.

[Tokorona]

Well, see. The character isn't playing th exact tiger stats, since I was looking at something viable at level 4.

So I ended up splitting it into an race - no HD assigned yet.

* Tigers get +6 Str, +4 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Wis.
* Tigers are Large Size
* Tigers take no Hide penalty due to size, and get +4 circumstance moidifer in tall grass or undergrowth
* Bonus Feats: Alertness
* Racial Skill Bonuses: +4 to Balance, +4 to Move Silently
* Tigers have Scent.
* Tigers have the special ability Pounce (When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.)
* Tigers also have the Rake ability
* Tigers also have Darkvision out to 60' and Low-Light Vision.
* Tigers have 1d6 Claws and 1d6 Bites

Thinking about giving them an ability to get Improved Grab. And 2-3 HD (or Improved Grab and 4 HD)

[User3]

1165710833[/unixtime]]
That isn't immediately obvious. I could be wrong, but I thought that you had full BAB when converted into a magical beast in that fashion. So the awakened tiger has a better attack bonus than the druid, and also should have much better stats than the wildshaped druid, since I was assuming the tiger would roll his stats since he's a player character.

Granted, a tiger-druid's spellcasting will blow the tiger out of the water, but that is mostly natural spell's fault.

I think it's ambiguous if you get full BAB. Unlike most templates, awaken doesn't spell out how having your type changed changes your statistics. Even if you do, though, it's a difference of +2/+3, and the druid's GMF alone will close that gap and some unless the tiger has someone willing to buff it.

I figured you'd take a tiger out of the book and then reassign its mental stats according to the spell. If you roll for its stats and then add, you end up with something that blows an equivalent HD meleer out of the water. Of course, the druid is still probably stronger.

[MrWaeseL]

Why would you play an animal

Seriously what's wrong with the core classes

[Immortius]

Hey, I was thinking of playing a housecat in my next game. The main challenge will be the lack of opposable thumbs.

[Tokorona]

MrWaesel: It's more or less a funny idea, but it's for just a weird plot. I Just make it a point to have anything I use more or less playable if a player wants to (none of them will, but.)