Assessing the value of Sudden Metamagic Feats

[Book]

Starting with the Miniatures Handbook and progressing into the Complete Arcane sourcebook, the Sudden Metamagic feats have been the source of a lot of buzz and debate fodder.

Except for a few utilitarian metamagic feats (like Extend Spell), I rarely see the value in meta feats. Although I do like the Sudden feats (primarily Maximize and Empower because of their minimal requirements and strategic impact).

I'd like to hear what everybody's opinion is concerning the acquiring of Sudden Meta feats over traditional Meta feats.

Also, if you could tweak them mechanically, how would you do so?

Finally, I'd like to see more Sudden feats *officially* published. Like Sudden Chain for example (which would be awesome for spells like GMW).

**

Please note: This comparison discussion is more for traditional spellcasters. It does not really apply to those who abuse metamagic via Artificer, Incantatrix, Divine Metamagic, or Incarnum Meta tricks.

[dbb]

Sudden metamagic feats are better the higher their non-Sudden counterpart's level adjustment is; but being Sudden alone doesn't make them good.

Extend Spell is a pretty good feat, for instance. Sudden Extend is, IMO, actually worse, for several reasons. One is that a Rod of Lesser Extend Spell is dirt cheap -- in fact, it's so cheap that there's almost no reason not to have one even at fairly low level. (compare the cost of other feat-equivalent items -- the Rod actually offers three times more uses than the Sudden feat, and is three times less expensive -- it's puzzling). The other is that if you're using Extend Spell, you're probably using a bunch of Extended spells (to get your buff-related mojo going), rather than just one.

Silent Spell and Still Spell are both crap to start out with, so the Sudden versions aren't really any better or worse. Fundamentally, if you're concerned about being grappled or silenced, you just pick or research spells that don't have somatic or verbal components.

Sudden Empower would be vaguely defensible if it weren't for the fact that you can get Sudden Maximize, which is in all ways better, for basically the same price (which is to say -- by taking Extend Spell). Sudden Maximize, in turn, is handy to have if you're careful to use it on spells that do things other than hit point damage and crap if you aren't.

Sudden Quicken would be decent if it weren't for the crazy requirements -- seriously, you're investing 7 feats in that whole deal to quicken one spell per day, that's every feat you'll ever get if you're not a Wizard or a human. It's not that nice.

As for how I'd tweak them:

Sudden Still and Sudden Silent shouldn't even have a limit on their number of uses, and should have the non-Sudden versions as prerequisites. You've invested two feats to do something that anyone with enough patience and research time can do anyway, go ahead and make every spell you ever cast Still or Silent -- I just don't care.

--d.

[User3]

I like the Sudden line for one reason: this crap gets used. Empower and Maximize aren't even options until about 9th level, and by then you use it just to maintain decent damage on blasting spells. Even then, you'd be a sucker to use it more than once or twice a day for normal spells.

The Sudden versions of these feat can and will see play at 1st level, and you can even use them to make metamagic Rods(which are awesome).

[RandomCasualty]

I never really liked the idea of sudden metamagic. It seems to me to be another bad step in perpetuating the idea of burning all your power in the first battle then resting.

Then, I've always wanted to see them deviate from the X/day paradigm in the first place.

[User3]

S-Maximize is awesome. S-Empower is decent. S-Silent is good for Arcane Tricksters or specialized Scout Wizards. The rest are crap.

dbb pretty much has a good handle on describing these feats. I too, would like to see Sudden versions of the +2 and +3 level metamagic feats like Repeat Spell, Reach Spell, and Chain Spell.

Metamagic Rods are an immense value for their price.

[User3]

I never really liked the idea of sudden metamagic. It seems to me to be another bad step in perpetuating the idea of burning all your power in the first battle then resting.

Oh, I agree, but the Sudden feats turn metamagic into "something I don't use unless ts free from a Rod" into "something I use every day like a coke whore".

While the "blow your wad" school of thought is generally unplayable, as a low level spelllcaster you are already doing that. Heck, the ability to just get 4 points of damage on your one Burning Hands at 1st level is pretty neat; almost good enough to be a viable tactic.

[User3]

1146596992[/unixtime]]I never really liked the idea of sudden metamagic. It seems to me to be another bad step in perpetuating the idea of burning all your power in the first battle then resting.

Then, I've always wanted to see them deviate from the X/day paradigm in the first place.

Who said that's a problem?

It's an option for a player. They can chose traditional metamagic feats if they want. Some character archetypes are predicated on wad-blowing. Also, efficient spellcasters can give significant contributions in all 3-to-5 combat encounters a day using their normal spells ... and then actually enjoy having the option to crank out an ass-kicking Sudden Maximized Disintegrate at 11th level.

**

Also to note: Most 7-15th level spellcasters I see rarely use more than 2 Empowers or Maximizes per day anyway (again, I'm not a fan of either). I'd much rather have just 1 use a day with the immense versatility of its application and lack of any impediments whatsoever.

Love,
Book

[shau]

I like them, but they are underpowered. Especially since you can get yourself a rod that will do it three times a day.

[RandomCasualty]

1146600013[/unixtime]]
It's an option for a player. They can chose traditional metamagic feats if they want. Some character archetypes are predicated on wad-blowing. Also, efficient spellcasters can give significant contributions in all 3-to-5 combat encounters a day using their normal spells ... and then actually enjoy having the option to crank out an ass-kicking Sudden Maximized Disintegrate at 11th level.

Well the thing is that spellcasters are already enough about wad blowing with their idea of limited slots per day. Further enhancing that idea isn't good for the game. Nobody should have the concept where they can be uber for one fight in the day and then suck totally for the rest. Since any NPC you make using that paradigm is a total partykiller.

[Lago_AM3P]

Well the thing is that spellcasters are already enough about wad blowing with their idea of limited slots per day. Further enhancing that idea isn't good for the game. Nobody should have the concept where they can be uber for one fight in the day and then suck totally for the rest. Since any NPC you make using that paradigm is a total partykiller.

RandomCasualty, would the feats be better if it were changed such that they were once 'per encounter'?

[RandomCasualty]

1164523375[/unixtime]]
RandomCasualty, would the feats be better if it were changed such that they were once 'per encounter'?

Well if they were in a balanced fashion sure. I think if just changed per day to per encounter, they'd end up a bit too powerful as they are currently.

[fbmf]

This one is a favorite of spammers, so I'm shutting it down. I will unlock it on request.

[/TGFBS]