losing levels

[josephbt]

Does anybody know if there is a procedure for losing levels? I mean, how many HPs do you lose? What about skill points?
I ask because a PC lost a lvl due to dying and had no clue how many HPs he gained when he leveled up. The DM watched him roll for HP but also couldn't remember. So what now? Does he lose avg, or does he roll the loss? I can see very bad stuff happening either way.

p.s. yes, i'm aware that he died so there would be consequences. But it is still wrong.

[Fwib]

If the values gained on previous levellings have not been recorded, I would say lose the average hp, and carefully note down what was lost, so the same are returned when the level goes back on (modified for average difference if the level that is re-earned is a different one from that lost)
Similarly, skills could be reverse-engineered if records have not been kept of have been lost.

[MrWaeseL]

You get a -1 to skill checks, saves, etc. per negative level, and IIRC you lose 5 hp, though this seems to shaft wizards...

[AlphaNerd]

1162315226[/unixtime]]You get a -1 to skill checks, saves, etc. per negative level, and IIRC you lose 5 hp, though this seems to shaft wizards...

On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.

Of course, this is for turning a negative level into a real level. So the real question is, how do you reduce a level by one?

If you can't recall the hp loss, then reduce the hp by the average roll of the player (given current hp), or use the average for the dice (round as you desire), making the obvious adjustments for con, and anything else that gives a level based increase in hp.

If you can't recall exactly where the skills went, then start by removing skill points from maxed out skills (these were obviously increased last level), then fake it from there. Or just let the player decide at that point.

As far as I know there is no official procedure.

Joshua

[Username17]

They have made - and retracted - three different offerings onhow level loss is handled. Why did they retract them? Because of Difference Engine.

Spells and effects exist that apply and reverse level loss. No rubric for level loss has ever been devised such that it is not in some manner repeatable for power.

From gaining hit points while under the effects of poison and losing them while healthy to losing levels while under the effects of lycanthropy and restoring them while human to dropping skills cross class and gaining in-class skills: ways and paths to exploit the rubric for level loss and level gain are more numerous than the stars in the sky.

Last I checked they had removed all mention of their rubrics for level loss, preferring to languish in obscurity rather than highlight the unsalvagability of the conceit.

-Username17

[Crissa]

Frank, wouldn't 'level loss' be easiest if the negative levels were merely bought off instead of trying to recall the last level and replacing it with a new one?

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

How about we scrap the idea of permanent level drain altogether?

In my house, I just remove the negative levels after 24 hours. Not once has anyone in my game complained about my ruling.

[power_word_wedgie]

Actually, I'm more inclined to go along Crissa's approach. (or what I'm thinking that it may be - I may be misunderstanding)

The approach is that instead of giving somebody a negative level, what you do is keep them at the current level (heck, let them keep their current experience points) but make it so that the amount of experience points required to make the next level is double.

The key to that is that it does the following:

1) It penalizes someone for death with some teeth to the punishment. Otherwise, people start to approach the character's death as a "Restart" button in a computer game and thus they may do stuff that is just stupid just because they rationalize, "Hey, my character will just pop up again anyways." Thus, it also avoids "ressurection to infinity" scenarios.

2) It gets away from trying to trace back prior level's hit points, skills, etc.

[Crissa]

Just to note, PWW, a negative level hurts like all get-out, so make sure not to throw those dumb 'I'm going to suck your levels out of you until you're a first level character!' monsters if you do that...

-Crissa

[User3]

Here is an idea that I've been thinking of:

--Keep the current negative level system.

--Whenever permenant level loss is indicated, just use permanent negative levels.

--All permanent negative levels are removed when you gain a level.

---------------------------

THe problem with the level system right now is that people get things asymetrically. People rarely get things at the right level, as they either synergize several small abilities into large powers(most casters) or else they get shafted (most fighters).

I mean, if a person's 13th level meant +1 6th level ability, +1 5th level ability, and +1 4th level ability, and none of those things stacked like our current system of buffs, then having a single negative level would be easy to apply.

[User3]

Even the negative level rules are kindof whacked. They punish multiclass characters excessively and characters of unfocused classes.

A Fighter doesn't mind negative levels very much at all-- just a -1 to ht and saves, really.

A ranger/wizard? loses his best spell, a sorely needed plus to hit, and skill bonuses as well.

But the worst is how poorly it interacts with new classes and systems. Most new character classes have no ruels for dealign with negative levels, but Incarnate does--rules that make negative levels absolutely crippling.

[Crissa]

Fighters don't mind a minus to their skills? Don't they lose their top feat and fail any prereqs because of the negative level?

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Let's see:

ENERGY DRAIN AND NEGATIVE LEVELS
Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.
–1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
–1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
–5 hit points.
–1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
Negative levels remain for 24 hours or until removed with a spell, such as restoration. After 24 hours, the afflicted creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker’s HD + attacker’s Cha modifier). (The DC is provided in the attacker’s description.) If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. The afflicted creature makes a separate saving throw for each negative level it has gained. If the save fails, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect).

A fighter might care about the skills, it's all up to the person playing said fighter. But according to the SRD, having a negative level doesn't make a fighter lose feats or prerequisites. It's a penalty to attack rolls and saves, not a reduction of base attack bonus and base saves. Also, having a negative level does not take away any feats you may have.

Note that actually losing a level isn't part of this discussion, because pass or fail, once you make that save 24 hours later, you no longer have the negative level anymore.

Then it goes into the incomprehensable morass of what happens when you lose a level, which I deftly avoid in my own home game to prevent me from having to make a ruling.

[Crissa]

...Don't Fighter feats have BAB or level prerequisites?

-Crissa

[Neeek]

1164878046[/unixtime]]...Don't Fighter feats have BAB or level prerequisites?

-Crissa

You are getting negative levels confused with lost levels. Despite what the topic claims, I believe the topic is negative levels.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1164878046[/unixtime]]...Don't Fighter feats have BAB or level prerequisites?

-Crissa

Like I just said, you don't get a reduction to BaB when you have a negative level. You get a penalty to attack. there's a difference.

Having a negative level doesn't actually affect your base stats nor your actual level. A 4th level fighter with a negative level is still 4th level, still have a BaB of 4 and base saves of +4/+1/+1. He is in every way, shape, and form still a 4th level fighter.

And again, when you make the save in 24 hours, even if you fail the save, you don't have the negative level anymore. So at that point, what happens when you have a negative level is irrelevant.

[User3]

Right. If you fail save, then you have to deal with level loss. I was just pointing out that even negative levels, while adequately described by the rules, don't work the way you'd want them to.