Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

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User3
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Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

Post by User3 »

On most optimization and min/max forums, there is always a lot of interest in melee combatants who specialize in tripping, disarming, charging, and massive damage dealing. There are even sunder monkeys out there from time-to-time.

My query to all of you is, are the Improved Overrun & Improved Bullrush feats worth taking and focusing a melee combatant around?

I rarely ever see people bull rush or overrun anyway. Seems to be a rather unpopular or misunderstood tactic. I would think such tactics would work well with battlefield control spellcasters (pushing foes into Webs & Walls of Fire). In the CW book, both Combat Brute and Shock Trooper tactical feats work *very* nicely with bull rushing and battlefield control spellcasting.

Any thoughts on these feats or characters who specialize in them? Comparatively, are they worth it versus being a tripmeister or damage-monkey?

Username17
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Re: Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

Post by Username17 »

As part of Andy Collins' unfathomable hatred for the Charge tactic, Overrun has been squarely nerfed in the PHB Erata - namely that you can't overrun as part of a charge.

For those of you keeping track at home, that means that:

1. Overrun doesn't do anything as by that measure you essentially can't overrun at all under any circumstances.

2. On those few occassions that you could overrun, it's no different from from just moving and tripping someone with the attack action - except that they get an attack of opportunity on you and can forfeit your attack for you by getting out of the damn way.

So playing by the erata nerf, there is no reason why you would ever declare an overrun under any circumstances. I've never encountered a play group who didn't look at that ruling, shake their heads in confusion, and then go back to playing Overrun as written, however.

Note: Overrun is technically a "trip", which means among other things that a successful overrun nets you a free attack via improved trip. No fooling. In most games you can just declare an overrun on anyone in your path, although Andy has gotten a bug up his butt recently about restricting this to one per turn (which means that goblin skeletons can hold you back just by cramming two to a square and sucking the penalties - with strategic use of the withdraw action they can hold characters without great cleave at bay for like 10 rounds minimum). Assuming that your DM isn't playing with that piece of weird ass penny nerfage - overrun can be decent.

Bull Rush is a very misunderstood technique - especially by the game designers. In 3rd edition it was at no time ever stated what happened to a victim of a bull rush who got shoved into a wall - but the smart money was on "they go prone" - in which case Bull Rush is completely your friend against all enemies who are small and kind of weak. In case you were wondering - 3.5 hasn't cleared that up at all.

However, the thing where you get to move into their square provoking an attack of opportunity for movement (Tumble!) which doesn't stop the attack, and then you don't make a touch attack, and then you make an opposed strength check where you get a plus two bonus, which sends them into a wall and presumably knocking them prone if you win, and then if you fail you move back into your original space which is empty so you have no chance of falling down yourself is in all ways superior to a Trip attempt, provided that you don't have any feats to back it up.

More elaborate uses of Bull Rush, such as flinging people off of buildings, dumping people into pits, knocking people into gelatinous cubes, and the like, is pretty much at the disposal of the DM - and thus hard to plan for ahead of time.

However, I see little reason for low level characters, who don't have Improved Anything, to not be Bullrushing enemies all the time. Especially characters with Tumble, who have a notable chance of negating the attack of opportunity in the first place, which is hillarious.

Note that both techniques can feed off of feats such as Elusive Target, Defensive Throw, and Karmic Strike, where opponents taking attacks of opportunity against you while you are moving is to your advantage.

In conclusion: you don't see these techniques used often because Andy Collins hates them and publishes rules for them which are contradictory and impossible to understand. What we can understand of how they are supposed to work is actually quite effective - but since it is essentially subject to argument even so you won't see it used much.

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Re: Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

Post by Username17 »

I just want to point out that the censor targets "N E R F A G E" but not "Ass Penny".

That''s wonderful. I mean that.

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Essence
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Re: Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

Post by Essence »

Actually, the filter doesn't care about the n, the r, or either e. It just doesn't like that one three-letter term for a homosexual dude.

Really, though, there ought to be some way to keep it from editing out something that's right in the middle of a superfuckingshort word. :tongue:


Essence
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fbmf
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Re: Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

Post by fbmf »

You guys are such comedians. For the record, Ess, I have no idea how to keep it from editing out buzz words that happen to be in the middle of other words. If your lovely wife knows, and would care to share, I would be much obliged.

Of course if you or anybody else knows, that would be fine, too. :wink:

Game On,
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Overrun & Bull Rush ... good tactics?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Other than spelling it Nerf [/i ]ge, except removing the spaces, I have no idea.

As part of Andy Collins' unfathomable hatred for the Charge tactic, Overrun has been squarely nerfed in the PHB Erata - namely that you can't overrun as part of a charge.


THANK YOU! I thought I was insane for thinking that the charge nerfs resulted in just that.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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