Third-Party D&D Books

[Imban]

So, ever since 2000, people and startup companies have been taking advantage of the OGL to put out their own Dungeons and Dragons material and variants.

A viewpoint I've seen a lot is that, well, they're not "official" and therefore they suck and shouldn't be used, but I'm pretty sure everyone here can understand why I don't think the Wizards of the Coast corporate logo denotes the book is a paragon of quality, with the rules inside having been handed down by the Gods of Game Design.

I've noticed that in some ways, third-party publishers find themselves both more and less tied to the established D&D rules. Some of them will go to ridiculous ends to not change things "established" by the core of D&D - i.e. "Wizards can jump through fvcking burning hoops and cry tears of blood if they want to learn healing and restoration spells, but even then the spells are gimped so that they're actually so bad no one ever wants to cast them." - while others will play with things established as holy in the rules that I could never imagine WotC messing with in one of their books. (Forgotten Lore, my favorite 3rd-party feat to joke about making characters with, which removes the limit on skill points invested in a single skill by level, for one skill.)

I've also noticed that Mongoose Publishing fvcking sucks and even after promising to do better (in other words, to stop doing find-and-replace to change "feet" to "ft." and mangling their entire fvcking book in the process), still wouldn't know what editing and quality control were if they bit them on the fvcking ass.

Anyone else have any observations here?

[Maj]

I'm not really a fan of Mongoose. I was a fan of Fantasy Flight - up until they went out of business. The ideas often weren't any more balanced than WotC stuff, but their ideas were a lot fresher, I thought.

And really, when it comes to buying books, that's what I'm after - good ideas.

[Imban]

Fantasy Flight isn't out of business by any means, but they've apparently decided to axe their RPG division except for the people working on Midnight and only publish RPGs other people make.

(They still publish Midnight stuff, but a great deal of that won't carry over to more normal D&D nicely.)

[User3]

From a sheer numbers perspective, I don't think any company could surpass Mongoose in its number of D20 publications. Their "splatbook" series of race, magic school, and classes was staggering in quantity.

I wonder how many people actually used any of their crap?

Finally, it looks like they've exhausted all their ideas for 3.5. Midnight looks like it has a lot of auxiliary sourcebooks, I but I wouldn't say it has much traction in the FRP community.

[Maj]

Fantasy Flight isn't out of business by any means, but they've apparently decided to axe their RPG division except for the people working on Midnight and only publish RPGs other people make.

I meant Legends and Lairs which was their RPG division. Fantasy Flight is the overarching company. Oops.

[NineInchNall]

I was sad to see Dawnforge disappear off their radar. It's one of the few published settings that has ever actually captured my imagination.

[PhoneLobster]

Fantasy Flight isn't out of business by any means, but they've apparently decided to axe their RPG division except for the people working on Midnight and only publish RPGs other people make.

Phew, Maj nearly had me in a real panic there. I'm a mad fan of their Cthulhu card game and Twilight Imperium board game.

Meanwhile.

Mongoose totally utterly rocks.

Sure their splat books for d20 basically suck, but thats what d20 splatbooks DO so thats pretty much top industry practice right there.

And at least they chose fun and interesting subjects and got them out fast. I mean wizards is off doing crack like the Complete Ass version 9 or 3 forms of dumb magic for no one to ever use episode 3, at a similar time in their much earlier splat book cycle mongoose was rolling out stuff like Elementalist or Summoner specific splat books. Much much cooler subjects at the very least.

But mongoose rules for two reasons.

1) Paranoia.
A game which is excellent, a modern reprinting/rewriting that was needed, and some excellent new material that works great. And even better its NOT D20!

Its one of the most fun most excitingly DIFFERENT rpgs ever and Mongoose had the sense to resurrect it and did it well.

2) Macho Women With Guns
Its presented as a d20 modern campaign setting basically, but with a great deal of fairly significant changes.

Despite that obviously crippling disadvantage (and some pretty bad editting here and there) somehow, damned if I know how, it works.

Perhaps because one of the primary things it does is that it makes the d20 modern core make sense. You see I know realise the correct context for understanding the d20 modern core.

Its all an exceptionally elaborate, pointless, and admittedly not altogether too funny, JOKE, and now I get it because the Macho Women book is the much needed punch line.


So I'm a fan of "third party" publishers or more specifically Mongoose.

But really the main thing of their's that I'm REALLY impressed with is paranoia which doesn't really count because they are actually the primary publisher for that game ...

[Draco_Argentum]

WotC has the Ravenloft liscence back. I expect the rules to somehow get worse (S&S dosen't do the best here, but better than Heros of Horror) while simultaneously making the setting crap.

FFG's Dragonstar is a cool setting (cue Lago ranting), ruleswise it didn't seem that bad. Guns with 4d10 damage.

My other favourite is Mongoose's Armageddon 2089. Durning D&D into a big stompy robot game set in the near future is just too cool. Rotten editing though.

[Imban]

I actually haven't seen Armageddon 2089 at all. Maybe I should. This goes double for Macho Women with Guns.

Meanwhile, WotC doesn't seem to want to use the Ravenloft license at all. Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is actually not set in Ravenloft.

Dragonstar is an alright setting, but there are a bunch of points in it where I'd rather just be playing Spelljammer. Dawnforge was neat, but while some things were cool (dark elves and normal elves not being sworn enemies, even if relations were tense, and no Great Heroes having done Great Things yet), it didn't seem like you were actually any more capable of doing Great Things in it. So it was basically the same, only then the bards would sing songs of you because there weren't any actually cool people to sing about.

[Josh_Kablack]

I have a great fondness for smalltime online publisher The Le Games and their "Unorthodox" series. Their stuff runs more towards the PHB idea of balance than the Gaming Den's idea of balance, but that complaint it hardly unique to them.

[User3]

Green Ronin used to be fairly well regarded even by the D20 skeptics. Pramas used to hire or subcontract a lot of WotC game designers which had a built-in level of cred right off the bat. Although I never read much of their stuff nor found anything to be that memorable.

Anybody know more about Green Ronin stuff?

**

In retrospect, all of Monte's (Malhavoc) and SKR's D20 material is now pretty much crap. They both liked high ECL races and spellcaster progression on PrCs that were like every other level. That obviously, never gained popularity amongst spellcasters anywhere.

[Imban]

I have or have access to a lot of Green Ronin stuff but I've never really vetted it for balance or anything. Their race design system is hilariously broken, but really, you knew that from the words "race design system".

[Modesitt]

WotC has the Ravenloft liscence back. I expect the rules to somehow get worse (S&S dosen't do the best here, but better than Heros of Horror) while simultaneously making the setting crap.

BULLSHIT.

Here's an overview of Heroes of Light that I wrote for my group when we were playing Ravenloft. Anything in brackets was added for the purposes of clarifying this for people without the book handy, i.e. you guys.

---

This book has a bizzare obssession with Wisdom checks to know things. Hint: Asking for a Wisdom Check is a round about way of saying "HAHA FUCK YOU" to your players. Overall, this book is very poorly written with mechanics that honestly don't work at all frequently cropping up. For example, why the hell is the Evil Dead ability necessary? That's the DEFUALT dipshits! Unless a PrC SAYS it increases turning...it doesn't! Why do you waste my time with this shit? These people have no idea how PrCs actually work, at all. Seriously, does Page 43 make sense to ANYONE?[From the White Arcanist, "Beginning with 2nd level, any further spells the white arcanist learns must either come from the school he chose at first level or from the school of Necromancy. This means that the 0 level and 1st level spells he knows are not restricted".]. For this book to be used, you have to re-write half the abilities in the PrCs and their prereqs.

Anchorite Inquisitor: BAB 3+, Knowledge(arcana)(8), sense motive(8), Trustworthy, Lawful Good, Evil Dead, Heavy Metal. Must always wear heavy armor or no armor. Must give up domain for Mists domain. Cleric BAB, two good saves, d8 hitdice, full spellcasting. Gains the ability to cast a few useful spells 3 times/day, immunity to charm, compulsions, possession, cast a spell without a Powers Check[In Ravenloft, casting evil spells has a chance to attract the attention of Evil Entities that give you free power and curse you and eventually take away your character], Light at will, odd mist-walking trick, a better version of True Seeing. A good clerical PrC, but it interacts very weirdly with Mithral and Celestial armor. This is also where Evil Dead comes from, where the book lovingly informs us that this PrC doesn't increase your turning.

Anchorite Wanderer: BAB 3+, Knowledge(geography)(5), knowledge(religion)(5), Run, True Neutral, cast 3rd level divine, Evil Dead and Heavy Metal. Must be Virtuous. It's like the Anchorite Inquisitor, except it's an abortion rendered in text. All it's good for is the Mistwalking abilities and those aren't too hot[They let you leave Ravenloft realms at will without going through any GM plots that are normally required]. They're just a way to bypass your GMs attempts at plots.

Black Powder Avenger: BAB 5+, Alchemy(5), Exotic Weapon Prof(Firearms), must be from Renaissance level, must be virtuous. He gets a number of abilities that center around making bombs and powder, in addition to some bonus feats. The sad thing is that you can replicate 90% of the class features with Fabricate and Greater Magic Weapon. It doesn't even DO what it wants to do very well; By level 10, your entire combat style is STILL awful. I'm not sure what class would be better for a firearms-centric char, but I'm sure there is one.

Blessed Paladin: BAB +4, knowledge(Religion)(5), must pass a test of virtue, can't gain a new mount, must remain Blessed. May always know when about to provoke a powers check. Virtue's Challenge is a non-ability that doesn't actually do anything[It lets the Paladins cry on Dark Lords, lets Dark Lord's scry on him, and lets people see he's Lawful Good, and now Protection from Evil works even if you don't know they're Evil]. Holy Ground is a fancy way of saying "I demand you give me an adventure NOW!"[If you cast this on a Sinkhole of...EEEEVIL!, you reduce it by one level and the Dark Lord immediately sends minions to attack you]. Sacred Alliance is odd and confusing[This ability has no listed duration]. Improved Aura of Courage. .. Doesn't actually do anything for a paladin. At all. . Last Stand is a funny way of forcing your GM to give you a high-level combat[You stand on Holy Ground and force a Dark Lord to come and fight you]. This class blows my ass.

Blessed Defender: BAB +4, Knowledge(Religion)(5), Blessed Feat, must pass test of virtue, must remain Blessed. d10 hitdice, 4 skills. Moral Compass ability. I'm not sure what Defender's Edge is actually supposed to do at the higher levels["...At 3rd level, the defender may use his Expertise to act in defense of a chosen ally within 2 meters of his own location by intercepting attacks meant for that individual. The adjustments to attack and AC increase by -1/+1 every three levels thereafter"]. Expertise Feat at level 2, Leadership at 3, better written version of Sacred Alliance that actually works[this version has a duration and more specific mechanics on who it affects]. Their Inspire Courage actually works[It gives a totally different set of benefits and specifies their type]. Get Uncanny Dodge at level 6, gets a better Aura of Courage at level 7. Gets a way to use Healing Circle that is useful. Once again, they get the ability to scry a darklord, but it doesn't actually DO anything. He gets DR at level 10...but it actually gets WORSE when he needs it most![Here's the deal: At level 10, he gets 5/-. When he's fighting a chosen dark lord, it 'increases' to 10/+3.] This class is takable, but it's still a poorly written POS. Check out its Spells heading on the ability chart[Every level except for 6 and 10 specify "+1 per level of existing class". 6 and 10 say "+1 as paladin"].

Detective: BAB 3+, Sense Motive(5), Track, Lawful. Medium BAB, rogue skill list, 8 skills, d6 hitdice, prof in all simple, one martial, and medium armor and shields. Cleric BAB? Check. No sneak attack? Check. No spellcasting? Check. NEXT!

Dilettante: 1/2 BARD SPELLCASTING?

Knight Errant: BAB 3+, Ride(5), Mounted Combat, Lawful, must be Virtuous. Mounted combat feats. Class ability on chart but not on explanatory text. Does Ride +2 mean he gains two ranks in ride? A +2 bonus on ride checks? What? He gets to call a warhorse, but it's not as good as a paladins horse, getting only evasion and the ability to share saves and Beastial Conscience. Note - Doesn't define how many skill points he gets per level. Yet another class with elementary errors that I would be ashamed to let slip past me if I was doing PRO BONO work.

Metaphysician: BAB 3+, Sense Motive(5), Trustworhy, 0th level arcane spells, must be Virtuous. Gets a tiny skill list[Alchemy, concentration, craft, knowledge(arcana), profession, scry, spellcraft), but 4 skill points. Prof with all simple weapons. He casts spells as a sorc, but can only cast mind-affecting spells plus spells from one school. This isn't actually a bad PrC if you've already accepted you're going to be a Sorceror. You get spell-like abilities(Bardic perform tricks, Ethereal jaunt 3/day, shitty SR(5+char level), and astral projection 1/week with some side effects, and spell focus for all mind-affecting spells. You give up your familiar

Scholar: "An insidious DM may grant a party of adventurers the patronage of a wealthy individual or esteemed unviersity in the Renaissance realms, but only on one condition. The heroes must take a scholar with them to observe what they see and experience." Yes, this is a PrC that's actually DESIGNED to hinder your party if you are so unfortunate as to have someone take it.

True Innocent: BAB +1. I think you're not supposed to have any skills or feats. No PC class levels to take this. d6 hitdice, 4 skills, small skill list, bad BAB, all bad saves, prof with one simple weapon. This class is completely useless as anything but a total NPC class.

White Arcanist: 1/2 Sorceror spellcasting.


Feats
Beastial Conscience: You make a sense motive check and can tell if your mount is engaging in Badthink[Under Ravenloft rules, all animal companions are evil]. Then you roll an opposed Will check to make it STFU and stop thinking that. You get +5 on the Will check if you take the Blessed feat.

Blessed: +2 fear and horror checks. You have to take Test of Virtue first.

Conscience: Useless to us. [My group found this really funny, but it was mechanically true. We weren't playing with Powers checks because they required an unacceptable amount of paperwork and bullshit].

Dabbler: Take one non-exclusive skill as a class skill.

Detect Virtue: More wisdom checks.

Eidetic Memory: +10 comp bonus on Int check to remember details of specific memories, +5 comp to Will vs memory-altering spells.

Heroism: Blessed, current level must be NPC class, must do somethign Heroic when you take the feat, then you gain a level of a PC class.

Hope: Blessed. Once per day, someone else gets a +4 sacred bonus to one skill. Downside is that an evil-doer might detect this and find you. It's a wash.

Kiss of Dawn: If you're a Good-aligned arcane caster, you can have all of your arcane spells auto-reappear at dawn. Useful under some circumstances.

Knowledgable: Four ranks in two skills and it doesn't even make sense.

Library: +2 on two knowledge skills.

Literacy: +4 on search checks involving books.

Resolute, Sanctity, and Sanity: +2 Sacred bonus vs Fear, Horror, and Madness, respectively.

Secret Society: +2 on Inneundo when secretly conversing. Once per week may take 20 on a kowledge check if you talk to members of your society.

Test of Virtue: You take this feat, you wait a level, THEN you get the Blessed feat.

Unicorn's Fellowship: Blessed. Your animals no longer hate you if you're a druid

University Education: All knowledge skills are class skills for you.

Wealth: Once per month, roll d20 vs char level. If successful, roll starting wealth again for a char class. Can only use in one domain.

This book sucks.

---

Here's what WotC would have to do to make a book worse than this:
Short answer: Re-create the environments in which Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand and Masters of the Art were written.

Long answer:
1. Fire their editors. All of them.
2. Hire via the time-honored tradition of picking names of WotC posters out of a hat.
3. Require all writers drink a bottle of tequilla before writing anything.
4. Hire large black men to randomly kick their writers in the balls throughout the day and night.
5. Spike all of the food in the cafeteria with arsenic.
6. Require all of the books be written in the dark.
7. Kill off any writers that bore Management and replace them with new ones, ordering them to simply take the old writers material and continue from that.
8. Require the entire book be ready to send to the printers from two weeks of the start date.

Edit: Correct 5/-1 to 5/-, as was intended.

[Imban]

Heheheh. Yeah, Ravenloft had some glaringly bad mechanics. The idea seems to be that the PCs suck and this makes it more horrifying, but if you just avoid the Ravenloft stuff and build with normal core rules, you really don't.

Anchorite Wanderer and Blessed Paladin are awesome classes, though. You seem to discount the sheer awesomeness of being able to ignore the GM's plot, leave town, and go kill some domain's Darklord just because you feel like it.

[Draco_Argentum]

Yeah, I never read that one or the evil characters version. Book with lots of PrCs = automatically crap.

[Crissa]

I hate to ruin Modisett's fun, but...

...That is how they've been running things lately.

-Crissa