How huge should the modifiers to a grappling specialist be?

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Lago_AM3P
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How huge should the modifiers to a grappling specialist be?

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Right now, hardcore grapplers can take a chain of feats that give them a minor benefit to grappling. Which kind of blows, as grappling as a primary combat mode is of almost absolutely no benefit to:

Horde Monsters
Creatures that fly or use meaningful ranged attacks
Creatures that regenerate
Incorporeal Creatures
Monsters of huge size or larger

Which is actually a huge chunk of the opposition. However, to my surprise, there are actually people (usually monks) who want to destroy things in grapples.

So, when designing feats and magic items and whatever, what can I offer to people so that they won't get pwned when pursuing this dicey fighting style?
Username17
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Re: How huge should the modifiers to a grappling specialist

Post by Username17 »

Monks are no damn good at grappling and never ever will be. Period.

Actually, you can be a fairly effective grappler of regenerating creatures. All you have to do is hold them down long enough for your allies to bludgeon them so that you can put them in a tub of water.

A Troll's grapple bonus is +14 right out of the box. In order to consistently beat them - you need to have about a +18, and to be really confident, you'd like to see a +22.

A 6th level Warrior with a level or two of Barbarian can have a base strength of 18 or so, with additional +2 or +4 from enhancement. They have a BAB of +6. Improved Grapple gives a +4 - so you are looking at a +14, which is wholly insufficient. If, however, you allow effects like Prayer and bless and weapon focus: unarmed to add in, the character can be looking at a +17 at 6th level, and if they Rage, they can be looking at a +19 - enough to be marginally confident of their abilities to tackle a Troll to the ground and hold him in a head lock while the rest of the party subdues it.

That's all you really need, right? A Monk can't ever match that or come particularly close, so there's no point in even trying.

-Username17
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Essence
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Re: How huge should the modifiers to a grappling specialist

Post by Essence »

In order to actually answer your question, Lago::

A 6th level monk has a BAB of +4, and (presumably) a Strength of +2 or so. With the +4 from Improved Grapple, he has a +10 grapple check.

In order to be as good as Frank's Troll, he has to have an additional +4 bonus.
In order to be able to step up to the troll with hope in his heart, he has to have an additional +8 or so.
In order to dominate the troll, he needs an extra +12 to his grapple check.

As long as these bonuses are available to Monks but not Barbarians (i.e. feats that have Monk Level 6th+ or whatever as prereqs), this should be fine. Making these bonuses available to the full-BAB-types just makes the Monk grappler feel emasculated all over again.


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Lago_AM3P
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Re: How huge should the modifiers to a grappling specialist

Post by Lago_AM3P »

I'm not even close to interested to making monks good grapplers.

They gain grapple modifiers SLOWER than everyone else, due to the lack of monk-favorable PrC and multiclass options, murdered BAB, and the fact that their magical equipment costs more and they are the most stat-demanding class in the game.
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