Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

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Lago_AM3P
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Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

In regards to the arcane strike feat in Complete Warrior, one of my DMs has had the bright idea to institute the DIVINE STRIKE feat, which works the exact same way except that it cannot be used for multi-limb or multi-weapon fighting (after someone pointed out that an octopus druid would own EVERYTHING).

How much do you think this feat would imbalance clerics and druids if she instituted it in the game? I mean, moreso than they already are. I'm realizing that arcane strike isn't all that hot (as even in the weird situations when you'd want it, it doesn't stack with tenser's transformation), but what about divine strike or whatever?
Username17
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Re: Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by Username17 »

The fact that it stacks with Divine Power is pretty sexy, but remember that it's still melee only - which is pretty limited (most Cleric Archers are, well, archers).

All in all, if you are using printed PrCs it's of most obvious use to Paladins, who, thanks to massive multiclassing, get a crap load of 1st level spell slots (and get their Wisdom Bonus slots like 4 or five times - often by level ten or eleven. Since their caster level has a tendency to be two or even one - and they have like 6 of these bad boys and none of them do anything, they may as well burn them off.

At which point you are looking at +1 to-hit and 3.5 points of what is essentially sneak attack for maybe 6 or seven rounds a day. That doesn't stack up well to weapon specialization - or even to weapon focus unless you normally only have one fight per day.

The people who really mow in on divine spell slots and melee combat are Druids, as you surmised. Unfortunately, the "does not work with multilimbed fighting" is a completely nonsensical statement. Is it all of your normal attacks? What about cleaves? Huh? So I'm having a little bit of difficulty understanding this.

To the limit that I understand the concept, the Druid transforms into a Dire Wolf at 8th level, and then proceeds to chuck 2nd level slots after casting GMF on his own mouth. So he gets 2 attacks at +16/+11 for a d8+2d6+12 points of damage with free trips at +11 with no possibility of back tripping that give extra attacks (if they succeed in tripping and/or killing their opponent) at the same bonus and damage as before that can be used against a different enemy if needed.

Any time people rule against the Octopus Druid, it tends to help the Wolf Druid, and vice versa. If you limit Octopus Fu the Dire Wolf Fu gets better.

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Lago_AM3P
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Re: Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Yeah, you got it right, Frank.

I was more wondering about its interaction with other mechanics, like a cleric with the destruction domain and extra smiting who channels that extra mojo into power attack (like a 9th level cleric with boots of haste blowing all three smites on a divine strike + power attack scheme) or a druid who was shapechanged into something excessively retarded like a DEMILICH.

BTW, I've gathered that your (and the majority of people's) games pretty much have several encounters per replenishment period. As you may have guessed, we pretty much have one per day. I know that non-casters are already screwed on a scheme where the real spellcasters can blow their entire wad of spell slots into one protracted encounter, but how much more does it sway that?
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

The whole multi-limbed fighting just meant attacks with anything that counted as an offhand; this was just to prevent, in her words, stupidness (???) that arose from people picking up two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Two weapon fighting with unarmed attacks is stupid?

Well, it is, but not overpowered stupid. Image
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User3
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Re: Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by User3 »

I never noticed that Arcane Strike works on all of your natural weapons. How retarded. You imply that Arcane Strike still works as written in this game (even though Divine Strike wouldn't). So, what about an Eldritch Knight polymorphed into a Rukanyr or something else with tons of natural attacks, would this be able to keep up now? (I ask this question not just in reference to this campaign, but in general.)

Lago wrote:stupidness (???) that arose from people picking up two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes


There's some stupidness to that, actually. For one spell slot you can empower either one melee weapon or all of your unarmed strikes. So, if you're using twf you get double the value from each spell slot by dual punching. (and as an added bonus, your power attack is now equal to THF, yeehaw)
Username17
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Re: Arcane Strike feat and the Divine Strike feat.

Post by Username17 »

So, what about an Eldritch Knight polymorphed into a Rukanyr or something else with tons of natural attacks, would this be able to keep up now?


An excellent question, and one which I have no intention of answering. Currently there is sharp division among the WotC staff as to how many attacks you actually get when you Polymorph into a monster.

Generally, if you ask them about it in a manner which implies that using one natural attack as if it were a weapon (ie.: with iterative attacks and such) is potentially abusive - they will respond by attempting to allay your fears by announcing that actually you are supposed to just use the creature's normal attack routine (as is explicitly stated by the fact that you gain the creature's natural weapons). However, if you bring up the question in terms which apply that gaining the regular monster attacks is potentially abusive - they will respond that you use just one natural attack as if it were a normal weapon (as is explictly stated where it cryptically announces that multiple limbs don't give you more attacks).

So if you ask a WotC Staffer "I polymorph into a Hydra, see, and then I layer some bonuses, blah blah blah..." they will announce that Dire Wolf Kung Fu works and Octopus Kung Fu does not. OTOH, if you ask the very same WotC Staffer "I polymorph into a Dire Wolf, see, and then I jack out my BAB and get all kinds of mad attacks with that ginourmous bite attack...." they will announce that Octopus Fu works and Dire Wolf Fu does not.

As far as I can tell, it is strategy for reducing the number of games which Polymorph breaks by making the spell so confusing that only people who can follow the conclusions of both potential outcomes to the point of breaking it either way will be able to break the game - simply by having two equally valid and wholly unrelated interpretations for people to escape to should one of them malfunction (which they inevitably will as soon as anyone actually understands how the system you are utilizing works).

But, provided that Octopus Fu works, then yes. Arcane Strike + Octopus Form = crazy massive quantities of damage. A full attack from a giant octopus is 9 attacks, an 8th level character can get an Arcane Strike off for an additional 36 dice of damage - which is fairly impressive. That is, assuming that the DM doesn't pull a switcheroo and change to Dire Wolf Kung Fu rules interpretation after you've invested in Arcane Strike and Multiattack instead of Combat Expertise and Improved Trip.

-Username17
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