Playing the Same Game

[Nidhogg]

I always assumed that the low CR shared by all the Dragons was because they gave you so much damn treasure.

[Username17]

1152600526[/unixtime]]I always assumed that the low CR shared by all the Dragons was because they gave you so much damn treasure.

They don't though. Dragons are one of the worst paid monsters in the game. If you can possibly fight anything else, you should do it.

A "CR 6" Dragon is the rough tactical equivalent of a CR 10 Giant. Heck, it has a better base attack bonus. Well as it happens, the average result of a CR 10 treasure is 5,800 gp. The average result of a CR 6 encounter is 2,000. For a Dragon, you roll three times - which means that your average is 200 gp more for the Dragon than it is for the Giant.

But... the Giant also comes with Giant Chainmail, a Giant Greatsword, and a Bag. And you know what? That averages more than 200 gp! So the Fire Giant actually pays better than the Dragon in terms of monetary output (and perhaps most importantly is three times more likely to give you a medium magic item and infinitely more likely to get you a major magic item).

And worse yet, defeating a Dragon is worth only 750 XP, while defeating the Giant is worth a cool 3 grand.

---

No, as written, the reason Dragons grow to adulthood is that they simply aren't worth anything to kill. They have uninspiring treasure for their level and aren't worth any XP. Smart adventurers give them a wide berth even if they are tough enough to take them. A dragon that's easy prey isn't worth any XP at all!

-Username17

[Nidhogg]

Unless you give the Cleric and the Rogue wands of Harm, and poke it to death in its lair where it has trouble flying around.

*glee* Free money.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1152607251[/unixtime]]Unless you give the Cleric and the Rogue wands of Harm, and poke it to death in its lair where it has trouble flying around.

*glee* Free money.

Alright, let's see here:

1. Harm is a 6th level spell. Wands only come in varieties of 4th level or best. So, we got illegal magic items thus far.

2. Assuming you COULD make wands of 6th level spells, they'd be fairly pricey. (A can't seem to find the pricing for creating magic items in my SRD this morning, but I can tell that 3rd level spell wands are over 11,000 gold each.) That tells me two things:

-You already blew a lot of money in non-existant magic items to get "free money"
-The group is most likely high level.

Something tells me you don't actually know much about what the rules actually say. In my opinion, that's a requirement for identifying which rules are bullshit.

[Nidhogg]

I guess I failed my Wit check. I was attempting smartassery, not suggesting that low level characters should arm themselves with Epic magic items.

[erik]

Well, to misguidedly try and get this show back on track I'll offer the following interpretation of the example of the friend-buffed, super statted, ultra-rich 7F/3Kensai fighter.

For the fighter to begin to be competent against some of those CR 10 challenges they need better weapons for free, they need better stats, and possibly neat abilities like growing up a size permanently. Basically a few buff tricks, magicky combat manuevers (whirling blade, jump, fly, rip portal, shatter, hail of arrows, etc.), and discounts/freebies on the ridiculously expensive itemry that they are required to have by some cruel punishment system.

Having the Fighter class add bonuses to physical stats, giving magical enhancements to weapons, along with magical combat tricks and perma-buffs, is not terribly out of line I think. Doing stuff like that would go a long way towards making a fighter at least equivalent to the Fire Giant. In fact, what I expect of a 10F is that he functions almost exactly as a Fire Giant would for the party. A big strong menace who isn't easy to ignore as a threat.

So my expectations for the 10F:

A hallway filled with magical runes.
-FireGiant Fighter gets out his admantine pick and makes a new hallway in no time.

A Fire Giant
-Even fight decided by tactics and terrain.

A Young Blue Dragon
-In melee grapple-pin it. Avoid ranged combat.

A Bebilith
-beat poison DC, rip through webbing, and lose a suit of armor in exchange for a very fine Bebilith hat.

A Vrock
-Get very irritated and ask the wizard for some help.

A tag team of Mind Flayers
-Hey, I'm glad we had a fighter, his mushy brain gave that Mind Flayer bad enough indigestion for us to take them out.

An Evil Necromancer
-Roll initiative for the win.

6 Trolls
-Hit hard enough to cleave trolls quickly.

A horde of Shadows.
-Take a beating, give a beating, and provide a big fleshy distraction for several rounds.

[Josh_Kablack]

Simple design/mechanics question:

How come Clerics get Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon but Fighters do not...? Roughly half of all the fighters in the source material wield a magic sword (or something similar), so why isn't that one of their class features?

[squirrelloid]

Ok, here's an overhaul of the fighter class through level 10.

Skills: 4+int per level chosen from: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (History), Knowledge(Geography), Listen, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble

Bonus Feats: The fighter gets a bonus feat at every level. These must be chosen from the fighter bonus feat list and he must meet the pre-requisites for each feat he chooses. His normal feats are not restricted to this list.

A Fighter's Weapon (sp): Starting at 3rd level the fighter may use Greater Magic Weapon once per day per class level. His caster level is equivalent to his character level +2 minus the sum of all his spellcaster levels from classes. Doing so requires a standard action that does not provoke AoO.

A Fighter's Shield: Starting at 4th level the fighter may use Magic Vestment once per 2 class levels per day targetting his shield only. His Caster Level is equal to his character level +1 minus the sum of all his spellcaster levels from classes. Doing so requires a standard action that does not provoke AoO.

A Fighter's Armor: Starting at 5th level, the fighter may use Magic Vestment once per 2 class levels per day targetting his armor only. His Caster Level is equal to his character level +1 minus the sum of all his spellcaster levels from classes. Doing so requires a standard action that does not provoke AoO.

Tactical Mobility: At 6th level the fighter may choose one of the following two options (A) Armor Mastery: When wearing medium or heavy armor the fighter always moves at his full base speed. If wearing light or no armor his speed instead increases by 10 feet (competence). This is an extraordinary ability. (B) Sweeping Sword Leap: When wearing light or no armor the fighter may make a limited fly movement. He starts this movement by making a vertical jump check that is not limited by height with a +30 bonus as if effected by the Jump spell. From the height of this jump he may then move half his movement speed upward. While airborn he may expend a move action to move upward or downward at half his normal movement speed, and may move laterally half his vertical movement when doing so (round down). He must be free to sweep his weapon from side to side (requiring at least a 10'x10' shaft of space) to use this ability. This is a supernatural ability.

Exotic Weapon Training: At 6th level you choose a weapon type (as per UA weapon category rules) - you are proficient with all exotic weapons related to that weapon type. You may choose an additional group at 12th and 18th levels.

Extraordinary Maneuver: At 7th level the fighter may choose on of the following abilities (A) Taunt - Target opponent makes a Will save at DC 10+1/2 character level+cha mod or must attempt to attack you using any non-magical (no spells or spell-likes) means at his disposal. Inability to attack you means he expends his actions moving towards you and/or standing there in frustration - he cannot attack others, use spells or SLAs, or take any actions that do not involve moving towards you or attacking you. Using Taunt is a standard action and a mind-affecting extraordinary ability (B) Impossible Shot (ex) - As a full-round action you make a single ranged attack against a target you can see with a +10 competence bonus on the roll and you ignore range modifiers and partial concealment. Your critical threat range is doubled (stacks with all other threat range increases) on this attack roll. If used with multishot or improved multishot the bonuses only apply to one arrow. (C) Dazzling Display - As a full-round action you twirl your weapons about you with alacrity. All opponents within 30' make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 class level + dex mod) or are Dazed for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting extraordinary ability.

Weapon Specialization: At 8th level the fighter gets +2 damage with every weapon he has WF for. If he gains WF with any weapons afterwards, he also gains the benefits of specialization with them.

Extraordinary Attribute: At 9th level the fighter may select one Attribute. Once per day per four class levels the fighter can add his class level to that attribute as a morale bonus for 1 round. This is an extraordinary ability and is activated as a free action. This is called Extraordinary Strength if strength is chosen, etc....

Extraordinary Resistance: At 10th level the fighter adds 2 to each of his saving throws (competence). This improves by an additional 2 at 15th and 20th levels.

Improved Tactical Mobility: If you chose Armor Mastery it becomes Improved Armor Mastery: the max dexterity bonus you can get to AC with any type or armor improves by 2 and you treat all armors as if they were 1 category lighter (minimum light).

If you chose Sweeping Sword Leap It becomes Improved Sweeping Sword Leap: you may instead use your full base movement speed. It otherwise functions exactly as described above.

Alternately, you may choose to gain the option you did not select previously, but they both function as described in Tactical Mobility.

Feat Changes:
WF takes a weapon group (as defined in UA) and applies to all weapons in that group with which the fighter is proficient.

Some Thoughts for 11th-20th:

14th - Greater Tactical Mobility:
One of your tactical mobility abilities increases one step. Improved Armor Mastery can be improved to Greater Armor Mastery: You treat all armor as light and you add an additional 10' to your base movement speed (total 20').

Improved Sweeping Sword Leap can be improved to Sweeping Sword Flight: Instead of vertical movement you gain a fly speed equal to your movement speed with good maneuverability. You still require space to swing your weapon, and you still begin the flight with a jump action as described in Sweeping Sword Leap, except it no longer need be vertical.

If you do not yet have both Tactical Mobility abilities, you may choose the one you do not have at its basic level.

18th - Supreme Tactical Mobility:
One of your Tactical Mobility abilities improves one step. You may not improve any single ability beyond the greater level (Greater Armor Mastery or Sweeping Sword Flight), but may still acquire one of them at the basic level if applicable.

This should be competitive through 10th level. It should also make playing a fighter through 10th level plausible, since it has plenty of good abilities to keep people from PrCing. Additionally, some abilities were intentionally written to allow ease of PrCing (GMW and MVestment abilities are meant to allow easy multi-classing with non-caster classes, though i'm not convinced i need to penalize spellcasting that much. But it does make it more of a meleer's schtick).

Obviously, i've included no flavor text, but the flavor text virtually writes itself.

[Nidhogg]

1152621589[/unixtime]]Well, to misguidedly try and get this show back on track I'll offer the following interpretation of the example of the friend-buffed, super statted, ultra-rich 7F/3Kensai fighter.

For the record, I simply assumed that the party has enough Item Creation feats to get the cheap on items. Mages and Clerics simply make an item to the best of thier ability, and then get it upgraded by an NPC spellcaster. It can save you a bundle on magic stuff. The super-stat thing something my group adopted because Monks just aren't viable characters without four realy high stats (and an amulet of natural attacks).

[squirrelloid]

1152651812[/unixtime]]

1152621589[/unixtime]]Well, to misguidedly try and get this show back on track I'll offer the following interpretation of the example of the friend-buffed, super statted, ultra-rich 7F/3Kensai fighter.

For the record, I simply assumed that the party has enough Item Creation feats to get the cheap on items. Mages and Clerics simply make an item to the best of thier ability, and then get it upgraded by an NPC spellcaster. It can save you a bundle on magic stuff. The super-stat thing something my group adopted because Monks just aren't viable characters without four realy high stats (and an amulet of natural attacks).

In a discussion about the RAW classes supposedly being CR = their level monsters, these assumptions are frankly against the rules. (1) We know monks suck, Frank and K already rewrote them for precisely that reason. (2) Assuming other characters in the party is against the spirit of this exercise, as its no longer the fighter being a CR10 monster at level 10. Further, you're expecting the party spellcasters to expend their xp on your stuff - you better expect you're paying full market value for those items and the spellcasters are pocketing the change. Resources of a 10th level character are exactly that, their resources, not their resources + their buddies being nice. You seem to think that fighters need cash (and/or xp) donations from their party members in order to hope to compete - doesn't this seem unreasonable to you? And there is no way to get around level appropriate treasure guidelines without pulling out some really abusive stuff (eg, Planar Binding), and that requires a spellcaster anyway.

Please try to keep the discussion about what it claims to be about: A F10 by himself with level appropriate cash and gear.

[Nidhogg]

Well then there aren't very many viable Fighter builds that don't invlove Prestige Classing. You can do wonders with throwing weapons, but you need far to much cash to make it a viable build before epic levels (and by then Rogues have enough feats to do it better anyways).

My suggestion would be to make feats that normaly give static bonuses a clause that turns them in to dynamic bonuses when taken by a Fighter. Stunt thier feat progression, and make Weapon Specialisation a class ability that adds half of the Fighter's level on damage rolls with the selected weapon (with 'improved' versions being unlocked every five or six levels). I've been toying with this idea for a while, but I don't know how to implement it without giving even more reason to two-weapon fight (which I like to discourage people in full-plate from doing in my games) plus, houserules are a pain to implement, so I rarely get past the 'hey, this is a neat idea' phase anyways.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1152636954[/unixtime]]Simple design/mechanics question:

How come Clerics get Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon but Fighters do not...? Roughly half of all the fighters in the source material wield a magic sword (or something similar), so why isn't that one of their class features?

Cuz it is very rare for fighters in the source material to make their own weapons and armor. Usually, they have wizards and/or legendary blacksmiths make it for them, or they find them in ancient tombs and caches.

You could make a class ability that says "Holds a magical sword and wears magic armor", but you'd have to rework equipent to be abstract enough for that to not suck.

-Des

[DP]

My fighter is designed to
Fighters get a dodge bonus to saves and ac equal to (1/3 BAB rounded down)+1
At 3rd level Fighters deal extra subdual damage equal to 1d6 per four levels this bonus applies to every attack.
1st fighters get a taunt ability like the knight at 6th level it can make a flying creature engage in melee.
3rd level fighters get mageslayer as a bonus feat.
5th level fighters get pierce magical protection as a bonus feat.
7th level fighters get pierce magical concealment as a bonus feat.
9th level fighters get force true form which works like pierce magical protection but against any sort of shape shifting.
None of these impact the fighters caster level.

Fighters are full casters, they cast using mechanics identical to the favored soul their spell list is every spell with a casting time of 1 swift action and every spell with the quicken spell aplied to it. They also get some spells like magic weapon, enlarge, magic vestment, some psionic warior powers too. The fighter can spontaneously cast 1.least dispel magic (no bonus to level check), 2.impede magic (fort save or can't cast defnsively for 1 round per BAB), 3.greater dispel magic, 4.minor globe of inulnerability, 5.antimagic field, 6.globe of invulnerability, 7.spell turning, 8.greater spell immunity, and 9.disjunction(effects only last one round per level)

At 10th level I give fighters quickened 1st level spells, and at 12th level they get quickened second level spells, and at 14th level they get quickend 3rd level spells etc. Casting is like the favored soul just everything has to be quickend. The fighter is effectively a full caster who can only cast quickened spells of up to 5th level. The fighter's caster level is its BAB.

[DP]

The description of the spellcasting was a little confusing but I was working from memory. I liked it quite a bit, it could usually beat a mage but wasn't as good against the big brutes like a hill giant. I think it also got true seeing at will as a capstone ability. It also got a fighter's noraml bonus feats. I wish I remembered it better.

[User3]

1152651812[/unixtime]]

1152621589[/unixtime]]Well, to misguidedly try and get this show back on track I'll offer the following interpretation of the example of the friend-buffed, super statted, ultra-rich 7F/3Kensai fighter.

For the record...

Actually, I wasn't trying to tear down your fighter but rather get back on the track.

This track:

what should they be doing? In which of those encounters should people be saying "Boy, I'm glad we had a Bard." In which of those encounters should people say "Good thing you're a Samurai, eh?"

So I tried to go with your notion of what an ideal fighter was pimping these days, and say that those are things that a fighter ought bring to the table on his own merits in order to be anything more than a glorified animal companion.

I definitely think a fighter should be packing the ability to have a monstrous strength, use weapons to greater magical effect than other characters, and have a variety of spell-like weapon manuevers disguised as [tactical] feats and maybe some buffs up their sleeves (i.e. the ability to go Hyde from their Jeckyl, or get angry green, or go He-Man, etc.). That would enable an F10 to be a CR10 for once in this universe, and also be able to deal with at least some of those challenges (I don't expect every class to be able to shine against every challenge).

Swashies should get a touch AC that is in the neighborhood of a heavily armored fighter's total AC. Maybe a slightly better neighborhood even. They shoud have their own suite of spell-like tricks and buffs mostly dealing with evasion and dazzling and such and such.

I pass on Samurai since I view them fitting under the fighter label. Heck the swashbuckler could too if you made a chain of low-no armor fighter feats which covered all the stuff I'd like a swashbuckler to have.

Bards have been covered by others sufficiently I think.
More significant magic dealing with enchantments, illusions, and sound-themed evocations. Weapon-fighting seems antithetical to the bard flavor, so I'd not try to beef them up in that arena at all really.

[Nidhogg]

What if Fighters got an array of special abilities giving dynamic bonuses based on the Fighter's level? He could pick one every other level, or trade one in for a Fighter bonus feat, like the Lore Master prestige class, but more ass-kickage. That way the Fighter is still the same class mechinically, but he gets cool abilities and manuvers, rather than a fuckton of suck.

[Username17]

Yes, the official Fighter has no magical abilities of his own, 49,000 gp worth of total gadgets (for comparison, a suit of +2 Mithril Fullplate that provides 20 points of Fire Resistance costs 56,650 gold - well outside your total), and has a total of 10 feats - of which 6 must be non-tactical fet bullshit like Improved Sunder and Dodge.

So really, you have a BAB of +10, and you can just barely afford to have a simply +2 to all your crap by filling up every slot with a separate +2 item. You can also have 2-4 nifty tricks up your sleave depending on how you spend those feats.

That's... not good. A Fire Giant has 15 hit dice. They are shitty giant hit dice, but it still means that he has a BAB of 11, a Strength of 31, and 142 hit points, and well, you don't. Numerically you are severely outclassed and the vast majority of your feats and equipment are sunk into minor numeric bonuses that don't even half make up the difference so there isn't much room for a character to have tactical powers that are helpful.

That being said, you can beat the Giant. You can have a Griffon mount and Elusive Target, and you can hold the Giant to a single attack each round that can't benefit from power attck that you can outdamage since you get lance bonuses and power attack.

But... that's a very specific build that can't even fit inside most buildings and cave environs. It doesn't win against most of the other enemies on the list..

And that's the problem I'm looking at. A Fighter has to spend all his resources right all the way back to first level just to win a single encounter he knows is coming at 10th level.and when he meets the next encounter, he won't win. And even then it requires massive (if common) house rules because in 3.5 ride-by attack doesn't even work as written.

People on both boards keep assuming that:

• A Fighter can keep up numerically with a Fire Giant.
  
• A Fighter has a pile of reasonably level appropriate items.
  
• A Fighter has a lot of combat options that are going to work.

And as written, none of those are true. You an just have "Improved whatever", the Fire Giant has more strength, more reach, and more BAB. Your maneuver doesn't work. No matter what it is.

But perhaps they should be true. Lots of people seem to think that a Fight ought to be a mirror-match against a Fire Giant. And since a Fire Giant doesn't do anything interesting but fight, that's a reasonable assumption. A Fighter's tactical control abilities would have to be better and his numbers would have to be higher.

But even so, that doesn't get you half-way through an EL 10 hallway full of traps - that could just be a couple of fire traps followed up with a symbol of death (DC 24+). A Fighter's only hope really is to have a Fort Save high enough to not die. But at +7, you really aren't especially close.

-Username17

[squirrelloid]

Speaking of maneuvers and numbers - does anyone else find it incredibly stupid that you get harder to trip as you get larger?

I mean, 4 legs? sure, harder to trip. But larger = easier to trip. Giants should be really unsteady with their human proportions. The fighter should trip the giant and shove his sword through its fucking face. Thats what he should be doing. Instead he's incapable of doing anything, though he's only behind by 4-5 on the trip check (2-3 if he takes EWM and chooses wisely for abilities) with a spiked chain, he probably still wants to try to trip the giant. Its less stupid than anything else he could be doing.

[erik]

In the real world the Fighter is nothing more than an animal companion with shiny equipment. I was trying to look to the next step where a fighter is re-written to break that expectation. I was proposing what a fighter *ought* to be capable of, and was trying to outline what abilities were necessary and reasonable to the end that he become the equivalent of a Fire Giant.

[RandomCasualty]

1152720993[/unixtime]] Lots of people seem to think that a Fight ought to be a mirror-match against a Fire Giant. And since a Fire Giant doesn't do anything interesting but fight, that's a reasonable assumption. A Fighter's tactical control abilities would have to be better and his numbers would have to be higher.

The problem is that the fighter is more versatile than the giant, due to his magic items (whcih are a factor of his CR). So the fighter can probably fly, turn invisible, see invisible and all sorts of other crap the giant can't do. And now you need something that the giant can beat. Since he lacks the ability to fly or see invisible, he certanly won't be beating casters. He's not all that observant so he probably won't be beating rogues. So really all that leaves is warriors.

If there's anyone a fighter is going to beat it has to be casters. Ideally, the fighter is set up wtih magical gear to counteract most of a caster's defenses and then take him down. That set up we could conceivably get with a few rules modifications. While a fighter may seem conceptually similar to a fire giant, he's really not when you factor in equipment. Equipment is not enough to beat out the fire giant's pile of bonuses (and it shouldn't be), but it is enough to possibly give him the tactical edge so an invisible attacker doesn't totally ruin his day. The giant on the other hand has virtually no good way to deal with invisibility, or many other similar tactics. Even just keeping him at range makes him suxx0rz.

I don't see the fighter beating a giant though, thematically it leaves the giant as everyone's whipping boy, and in the end just results in us reducing the CR of the giant until it can beat a fighter again.

The real problem in D&D is this idea that magic counters some stuff, but nothing counters magic.

[Username17]

The problem is that the fighter is more versatile than the giant, due to his magic items (whcih are a factor of his CR). So the fighter can probably fly, turn invisible, see invisible and all sorts of other crap the giant can't do.

This gets brought up over and over again. But you know what? As written, the Fighter can't do any of that crap. e has 49,000 gp. Wings of Flying are 54 grand, a Gem of Seeing is 75 grand, and while he could technically afford a Ring of Invisibility at 20 grand - let's face facts: that's nearly half his cash and the Fighter needs bonuses to his weapon, his armor, his shield, his forcefield, and his strength or he can't even get up in the morning. He doesn't have the luxury to spend half his income on the ability to do good sneak attacks because he doesn't even have sneak attack capability.

As we went over in the Overpriced Magic Crap setup, magic items are really expensive and you actually don't have many of them, and the ones you do have are not good. A Fighter's magical equipment is probably entirely taken up by "not quite as numerically inferior to the Fire Giant as you'd think". A no-frills level appropriate (+3) magic sword, magic shield, magic armor and magic bow cost over 55 grand - you can't even have pants that are as good as what the Wizard could make himself last level on the budget you supposedly have.

And numerically, you're deep in the toilet. If you don't have them you just can't do your job at all. The idea that you somehow have equipment left over to pull weird shenanigans with charged items (the best of which, I will remind you can't even be used by Fighters) is preposterous.

But it keeps being brought up. Do people want there to be enough magic crap lying around that Fighters can have Immovable Rods and Dust of Illusion in their pockets? Because right now they aren't even close to that.

-Username17

[squirrelloid]

1152738245[/unixtime]]

1152720993[/unixtime]] Lots of people seem to think that a Fight ought to be a mirror-match against a Fire Giant. And since a Fire Giant doesn't do anything interesting but fight, that's a reasonable assumption. A Fighter's tactical control abilities would have to be better and his numbers would have to be higher.

The problem is that the fighter is more versatile than the giant, due to his magic items (whcih are a factor of his CR). So the fighter can probably fly, turn invisible, see invisible and all sorts of other crap the giant can't do. And now you need something that the giant can beat. Since he lacks the ability to fly or see invisible, he certanly won't be beating casters. He's not all that observant so he probably won't be beating rogues. So really all that leaves is warriors.

This just isn't that true at all.

Invisibility: Fire Giant has +14 spot. That means he notices invisible creatures with less than +0 in Hide most of the time (eg, the Fighter). Sure, there's a miss chance, but he knows exactly where the fighter is. And the fighter better hope he shelled out for Improved Invisibility. +14 spot is more than the rogue can have ranks in hide at level 10, which means its +1 for the giant vs dex mod for the rogue, which at level 10 favors the rogue but not ridiculously so. Eg, the Fire Giant notices him about 30-35% of the time instead of 50%.

Flight: Well, the giant's rock throwing isn't that bad, especially if the Fighter is burning cash on flight instead of improving his AC. But the giant can always head for his cave if need be.

See Invisible: The fighter? level 10? um.... are we playing the same game?

[Draco_Argentum]

RC raises one good point. The giant has to beat someone or his CR is wrong. Also like I said earlier Casters can beat melee bruisersso if the fighter's claim to fame is beating them too hes still worse than having a caster around.

[dbb]

It seems to me like the Fire Giant should certainly beat the Cleric, and probably either the Fighter or the Rogue.

The Cleric is (conceptually, here, not under actual current rules) not as good a fighter as the Fighter, and has all the healing and restoration and warding spells. Well, the Fire Giant doesn't do anything but damage. He doesn't have poison, inflict level drain, paralysis, doesn't stun you, doesn't Charm you or scare you or turn you into a toad. All the giant does is hit things. So he has to beat the Cleric, because the Cleric is less combat-focused than he is and the Cleric's array of countergimmicks is useless against him (unless, of course, healing is so buff that it can exceed a Fire Giant's damage output -- which is unlikely and unwise).

There are good arguments for the giant being able to beat both the Fighter and the Rogue, and vice versa.

The Fighter is the guy in the party who hits things. If he can't beat in melee combat the enemy who is also focused on melee combat, then nobody in the party can. That's a defensible design choice, but it's a little wacky in its implications, as it leads to Fighters spending their career looking for little guys in robes to beat down on, while the Wizards and Rogues face enemy knights and giants. I'm not sure that's right. On the other hand, I'm also not sure if it's right that there aren't any enemies who are bad ass enough for the fighter not to want to jump into a fight with them. It may come down to whether you prefer that combat be more like a chess match (where you look for the other side's weaknesses, and match your strengths against them) or just a contest of strength vs. strength. My inclination is toward the chess match.

The Rogue's argument is basically built on Jack the Giant-Killer. The Rogue is the sneaky, tricky guy who brings down the bigger guys with stealth and craftiness and a stab in the back. If he can't bring down the Giant, who, remember, doesn't do anything but fight and wouldn't know a cunning plan if it jumped up in front of him and sang "Cunning plans are here again", he's going to feel mighty short in the pants. On the other hand, the Giant's really big, and he might feel that a cunning plan and a little knife are great and all, but the Rogue is going to have to stab him a whole bunch of times with said knife before he even feels it.

I tend to think the Rogue and the Wizard should be the giant-beaters, but I could really go either way between the Rogue and the Fighter. Note well, however: if the Fire Giant is going to beat the Fighter, then the era of fighters who are just big stacks of bonuses is O-V-E-R over, because otherwise he has nothing to do at all. Embracing the "Fire Giant over Fighter" model means the fighter needs to get a whole bunch of nifty tricks and things.

--d.

[Crissa]

I thought the point of the CR wasn't that it beat someone at that level, but that it consumed resources of a certain amount at that level?

-Crissa