3.5 Annoys Me Anew

[dbb]

Right, so here's what I want to do:

- Kick ass with a sword. Doesn't especially matter what kind of sword, although of course as per usual longswords and greatswords are the best, if only for reasons of availability.

- Turn into things. It can be monsters, it can be animals, whatever. It's best if it's useful in combat, for a welcome respite when the swording gets to be kind of dull, but that's not absolutely required. But shapeshifting is a must.

- Have some useful out-of-combat abilities. Naturally, spells are ideal, for the same reason spells are ideal for everything in D&D -- they're just better for no damned reason. Spells that are useful in combat as well are just kind of gravy. As long as I can do something cool other than kick ass, though, that's just fabulous.

Everyone, absolutely every last person reading this, is now thinking the same two words: "Elven druid". Nor do I blame you. But:

- The ass-kicking part needs to have minimal pre-ass-kicking preparations; if I have to throw down a whole bunch of spells, even if I can do it three or four hours in advance, we have a problem. Two non-swift-action spells are about all I can reasonably stomach.

- Core and Complete Whatever only.

- Moderate level (5-9th).

- What Lago would call a Medesha-number attribute scheme: 89 points in stats on a one-for-one basis (so a 10 costs 10 points and an 18 costs 89 points).

- Other players who seriously think getting Weapon Specialization is the cat's pajamas (so the ass-kicking doesn't have to be that impressive to keep up).

...

So, what's the optimal character design strategy here? It pains me more than I can say to put stats in either Strength or Dex with a character who does form-changing, but without one of the two the "ass-kicking with a sword and minimal prep" part isn't going to work. Wisdom and Constitution are going to be must-haves for the "elven druid" strategy. Is it rational to just dump Int and Cha in this situation, even though for the most optimal general druid builds you'd pump them up at the expense of your physical stats? If so, why I am having such a hard time talking myself into it? And what blindingly obvious strategy to do the abovementioned better am I completely overlooking?

--d.

[User3]

DBB, one thing you forgot to tell us is ... what are your requirements for skills? You seem like the cerebreal kind of player who would value a certain quantity and set-availability of skills.

The reason I ask is because you tentatively talk of dumping INT.

Book

[dbb]

My requirements for skills are actually just ... that I have something useful to do outside of combat.

If that involves having skills, then okay. If not, I'm not going to cry big rivers, especially since most things that can be done by skills can be done better and easier by magic.

Bear in mind that this crazy attribute scheme essentially allows me to get Str Con and Wis all at 18 and one other stat at 14 and have the other two at just 10 and still have a point in my pocket to save for Christmas, so when I talk about "dumping" stats, at no time must this equate to actually taking a penalty. So that's still 4 skill points a level on a druid, worst case, which is enough for Concentration, Spot, and Listen -- and that's about all that's really required.

--d.

[Essence]

What level range are you playing in?

[Neeek]

You could try playing a Ranger 1/Ardent4/Slayer X. You'd get some random abilities, full weapon/armor use, nearly full BAB, plus Metamorphosis at 7th. I'd stat it something like Str 18, Con 18, Dex 16, Wis 18, Int 10, Cha 9.

[Username17]

I see that your available level includes 7th, so you can pull all this off as an Elven Wizard. I'm assuming, for example, that you don't want to fght with a wooden sword, despite the tremendous amount of awesome that can generate as a druid.

Why not just be an Elven Wizard with either the feat or the background where you happen to be an outsider? Then you can use Alter Self and Polymorph to break the game or just support your fellow characters as needed (since with the new Polymorph rules you can take the powers of creatures with a higher CR than your own).

Have Extend Spell and prepare a lot of Extended Wraithstrikes and similar non-sense. Just fold your wizarding directly into stabbing people. It'll work fine.

-Username17

[dbb]

What level range are you playing in?

Starting around 5th-6th, going up to "whenever we get bored", i.e. probably around 11th-12th.

You could try playing a Ranger 1/Ardent4/Slayer X.

I would give it very serious thought, except no psionics. My error for not making that explicit.

Why not just be an Elven Wizard with either the feat or the background where you happen to be an outsider?

Why not indeed. Good arguments, wizards do get most of the swift spells, and the hit point difference is make-uppable with nonsense like False Life. It's a little more prep than I was hoping for, but it's got its points.

--d.

[Book]

A lot too depends on your party composite and your specific role-&-schtick. Since you seem to like the Wiz Sword concept, 1+ Rounds of self-buffing (at your current level) will be viable in some party composites, but not others. That's assuming, you are fighting the good fight 3-5 times per day.

[Essence]

I don't know if you're allowed to play a monster character, but it seems that the solution would look something like:

Aranea + Sorcerer 1: You start with a BAB of +4, 2nd level Sorcerer spells (take Alter Self and go to town with the shapechanging because you're a Magical Beast, and that's lots of kewl options from a 2nd level spell). Take your 1st level spells as stuff like Critical Strike. Take a 2nd level of Sorcerer to pick up Wraithstrike, and immediately either:

1) go into Dragon Disciple, using every one of your bonus spells as more Wraithstrike, and rely on your continuous touch attack swording combined with your high Strength to provide the asskicking (because your BAB won't really keep up), or

2) Take a level of Fighter, then a level of Spellsword, then go into Eldritch Knight. The level of Fighter will get you into the Spellsword, which will give you the 3rd level Arcane spells you need to get into Eldritch Knight without losing another point of BAB (and let you wear leather armor without ASF). At this point, the BAB will be 2 lower than a Fighter of your level, and your caster level will be 3 behind a Sorcerer of your level.


There are a couple of other monsters that may allow you to perform similarly interesting tricks. A Doppelganger with the feat that makes you an Outsider can eventually get Alter Self and turn into any Small or Medium Humanoid OR outside of 5 HD or less. A Janni can't change shape, but they can change size and they have a bunch of other useful toolboxy tricks besides. A Pixie (without Irresistable Dance) can Polymorph once per day and would make an OK Finesse fighter if you could compensate for the low damage and the short reach (rogue would help).

[dbb]

Can't do monsters as characters -- Core + Complete only.

Hm, so let's see about this elven wizard thing.

Elven Wizard 6/PrC1, Str 18 Int 18 Wis 10 Dex 15 (17) Con 18 (16) Cha 10.

Long-Term Spells: Mage Armor, False Life (or just False Life and a mithril twilight chain shirt or whatever).

Feats: Extend Spell and some other nonsense.

Equipment: mithril twilight chain shirt if necessary, mithril buckler, +1 spell storing longsword (Vampiric Touch), rod of spell extending, various stat buffing items.

Attack Bonus: +8 (+4 Str, +1 sword enhancement, +3 BAB)

Before combat: Cast Bristle (if more than 1 round of prep), cast extended Fist of Stone (if just one round). Attack bonus goes to +11.

Round 1: cast extended Wraithstrike, move into melee range if necessary, smack opponent with longsword and stored spell.

Round 2: cast extended Blades of Fire, full attack with sword & stone fist.

Repeat ad nauseam, alternating Blades of Fire with Bladeweave or whatever for variety. Interesting. Quite spell-intensive, but virtually guarantees hits.

An "Improved False Life" would be a help, but opening almost every fight with a Vampiric Touch will make that very nearly a moot point -- that'll get hit points up to match a fighter of the same level.

--d.

[Username17]

Technically an Aranea is playable in Core - it has a level adjustment in the monster manual. Of course, that level adjustment is +4, so an Aranea is supposedly a 7th level character, so seriously I don't even know what Essence is talking about. That's some serious house-rule shiznit he's spouting.

The Core Rules have Araneas as being essentially unplayable. A 7th level character with a BAB of +3 and no meaningful abilities? WTF is that?

If you are willing to be an archer, there's all kinds of crap you can pull. As a 7th level character you could take the feat where you ignore material components, and then you could begin every day by minor creating about 50 billion darkwood arrows soaked in Black Lotus Extract. Also you could have some back-up arrows of spell storing.

---

Honestly, I'm not impressed with spell-storing swords for the price. I think you're better off just having a sword that you cast GMW on and an available off-hand attack with your spells. That saves you 8 grand, which you can turn around towards a luck stone or get some gloves of ogre power and have some bling left over.

-Username17

[Essence]

Sorry, momentarily confused the LA for the ECL. My bad.

- - -

The spell minor creation doesn't have a material component. OTOH, you do need to make a Craft check DC 35 IIRC to create Black Lotus Extract, so that 7th level character had better be able to acquire a hell of a skill bonus item from somewhere.

[Username17]

Actually, it totally does. Minor Creation requires a "tiny piece" of whatever kind of material you intend to create. However, since it is a piece not large enough to have monetary value, you can use Eschew Material Components on it - which is awesome.

As to skill bonuses, yeah you'll want some. Personally, I can't find the DC for Black Lotus Extract in Core, so expect an argument over it. But you'll be able to make Sasson Juice by taking ten on ranks alone, so I doubt you'll need much of a skill bonus.

10 ranks + 6 Intelligence +4 alchemist's room + 10 "taking ten" = 30. You'll be able to take 10 and get a 30 alchemy check with your minor creation. If you have one of those +5 bonus items that litters the countryside, you'll have a 35. Problem solved.

-Username17

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

dbb, I know the game context you're talking about and I have a character with pretty much the same requirements. Only I want to have a monk level so I know ahead of time that they're going to be shitty.

I was thinking about writing a spell called 'Path of Man' or something that allowed druids to selectively take on the qualities of animals they wildshape into. You know, split the good stuff like extraordinary abilities, size, physical stats, senses, natural armor, etc. and have your character level determine the amount of goodies you can pick from the menu.

Or something.

[dbb]

Right then, finally getting back to this.

I'm leaning very strongly toward starting human, rather than elf, mainly because I want those extra points of constitution, and the extra feat more or less evens it out anyhow in terms of getting a weapon proficiency. Also, I loathe elves.

Which leaves me with one remaining question to ponder: what schools of magic to exclude in order to specialize in Transmutation. The wizard I've played most recently has been focused primarily on Enchantment and Illusion, with the not unexpected result that I'm sort of sick of those. Excluding *both* might be a little too far, though.

I am unwilling to exclude Necromancy, for False Life, Vampiric Touch, and so forth; I am reluctant to exclude Evocation, even though it's the logical thing to do (especially since this character will already have plenty of ability to deal out physical damage) because of Prestige Class-related reasons. Suggestions?

--d.

[Username17]

In Limbo, the answer ot all questions is "Giant Frog".

Your answer may also be "Giant Frog". Or at least, "Neraph" from the Planar Handbook. You get the Outsider type so you can turn into shit and have it matter, the free Martial Weapon Proficiency unless you're using the Tome of Fiends, and some natural armor. Also, you aren't an Elf.

-Username17

[dbb]

I may be crazy, but I am coming to the conclusion that my excluded schools will be Enchantment and ... Abjuration. Yes, Abjuration.

It's true, I'm missing out on Dispel Magic, Shield, Energy Immunity, and so on. But look at it this way:

* Nearly all of the good Abjuration spells are also cleric spells. So the cleric can damned well prepare them if they're that important.

* Nearly all of the good Abjuration spells can be cast on someone else. So there's no reason it couldn't be a perfectly good strategy to just take Leadership, get a cohort who doesn't exclude Abjuration, and have him hang around and cast them on me when I need them.

* Nearly all the other schools cost something worse, except Evocation, and I'm stuck with that one already.

--d.

[fbmf]

Nearly all of the good Abjuration spells can be cast on someone else. So there's no reason it couldn't be a perfectly good strategy to just take Leadership, get a cohort who doesn't exclude Abjuration, and have him hang around and cast them on me when I need them.

Longtime Nifty regulars may remember the "your DM may not allow the Leadership Feat" fiasco. Keep this in mind.

Game on,
fbmf

[Username17]

Doesn't sound crazy to me. Abjuration effects are totally ass except for the outright immunity spells - and those don't become available until very late in your life.

I wouldn't even play at 17th level if I didn't have access to mindblank. But if you're playing to 12th level you'll never see it. You may as well not have Abjuration.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1151083826[/unixtime]]Doesn't sound crazy to me. Abjuration effects are totally ass except for the outright immunity spells - and those don't become available until very late in your life.

Wel I dunno about that. Protection from arrows, Dispel magic, Protection from evil and stoneskin are real useful.

There isn't much for abjuration at 5th or 6th level though, but the early levels have some powerful must take spells.

[Username17]

stoneskin? The one where you set gp on fire to get DR that you may or may not care about? Who cares?

Protection From Arrows is OK for a short period of time, but dispel magic is pretty much a waste of time in almost all circumstances. There's gold in this school, but the "classic" effects like shield, stoneskin, and dispel magic are all crap.

If they gave out greater dispelling as a 1st level spell, I wouldn't even care.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1151138950[/unixtime]]stoneskin? The one where you set gp on fire to get DR that you may or may not care about? Who cares?

May or may not care about? DR 10/adamantine is huge, given that pretty much no monsters can beat it. Throwing it up on the fighter is the equivalent of giving him double his normal hp. That's pretty good. Fights against melee toughs can be pretty much won or lost based on stoneskin alone. And lets face it, the MM has a lot of melee toughs. And you may not be able to fly over all of them.

Sure you drop 250 gp per casting, but that's no big deal if the entire group chips in.

And I mean protection from evil and magic circle against evil are unbelievably awesome. It's basically mind blank lite.

Dispel magic is kinda nice in rare occasions. YOu're right that most of the time it's garbage, but there are certain times you need it (like when someone baleful polymorphs your ass). You certainly don't want to be walking all the way back to town and paying some huge sum of money to cure someone everyitme they get hit with some status effect like baleful poly. I mean abjuration is pretty much the only way to remove some of that crap.

[dbb]

Protection from Evil is a great spell when you're fighting Vampires or Enchanters or whatever. But it's a first level spell, even for Paladins; so it's not that much of a trial to get the Cleric to memorize it instead, and it's even less of a trial to just get a non-spell completion item of it made. I mean, an item of continuous protection from evil costs 2,000 GP.

The whole point of Magic Circle against Evil is that you don't have to cast it yourself to benefit from it, so the Cleric being able to cast it is fine.

Resist Energy is definitely not trivial, although for a minor investment of about 1,000gp you can have potions of resist whatever energy type available for an emergency, even if there is no other spellcaster around. Generally that's what you would do anyway, unless you know in advance that you're going to be fighting a Red Dragon -- I hardly ever see people rack Resist Energy in other situations. So while I don't discount it, the prospect of being personally unable to cast it doesn't worry me too much.

I wouldn't turn down DR 10/Adamantine if you offered it to me, but 250 gold pieces a pop and a fourth level spell slot is kind of high. (Money is at a relative premium.) You could prep Greater Mirror Image in the same slot and pay nothing.

It's not that I think Abjuration spells all suck. It's just that, especially at the levels I'm likely to be playing at, they suck more than the other options I have.

--d.

[Username17]

DR doesn't work on Energy damage, so a little more than 50% of the monsters in the Monster Mnual at CR 7 can penetrate your DR. The Flesh Golem does it honestly, all the others do it by using magical or energy attacks that simply are not reduced.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1151170493[/unixtime]] I mean, an item of continuous protection from evil costs 2,000 GP.

Well, that's entirely a house rule, and ranks right up there with the sword of continuous true strike. Crafting a continuous item in general is trying to abuse the game, considering the pricing guidelines totally suck.

As far as the rest of the stuff, I guess you're right about the cleric being able to cast most of it and therefore making the school somewhat useless, so long as you've got a cleric willing to pick up the slack. Since the majority of abjurations do appear on the cleric list, it is probably easier to let the cleric handle that sort of thing. Its been a while since I've had a decent PC playing a cleric though, so I'm used to picking up that slack as a wizard.