Duskblade vs traditional Gish discussion

[User3]

By the way, you're the same K on the wotc board who posted the huge Necromancer thread? If so, I must say that you did a splendid job blending the fluff with playable classes.

I also loved how people broke down the stuff as busted, the bonedancer (reaper? I forget the name) and you just dismantled level by level what monsters would be beating them and how they wouldn't be outperforming other classes.

I'm probably going to convince my GM to let me play the class in our next campaign.

Actually, half the material attibuted to me is actually Frank Trollman (also on this board). He and I share an identity on the WotC boards because thats the easiest way to answer questions about the stuff we wrote (Revised Necromancer Handbook and Tome of Necromancy). The Boneblade Reaper was a piece I wrote, and I'm glad it's gotten such a good response.

Frank was actually the guy defending the BBR because he's a champ at breaking down the numbers and rules, so props go to him on his posts defending our stuff.

[Username17]

Shhhh... I tink it's a violation of the WotC Code of Conduct to address which parts of those works were written by you and which were written by me.

Anyway, the word "Gish" indeed comes from a tirade in Dungeon Magazine about Githyanki. The idea is that they have three castes: Warriors (who have some dumb name noone cares about), Wizards (who have some dumb name noone cares about), and Warrior/Wizards (who have a dumb name - "Gish").

Now, the name of the warrior/wizards is no more or less retarded than the other two names, and noone tries to memorize the Githyanki language. The point here is that Fighter/Wizard is an archetype that people like. Nevermind the fact that Arcane Magic is defined in D&D as being "Magic that it's hard to cast while wearing armor" rather than "magic that characters gain through personal skill and an understanding of metaphysics". Nevermind the fact that there are enough spells lying around that if it was really important to you to cleave someone's head off with a crowbar as a Wizard - you could do that.

No. People want to be a swordsman and a wizard. They really want this, and D&D is specifically and carefully constructed to make that nearly impossible (not carefully enough to keep you from being able to do it, but pretty carefully as far as things Hasbro does go). So when D&D came out with a fvcking word that actually meant this character archetype, people started using it to describe this character goal.

And the rest is history. People have been trying to keep swords out of the hands of wizards since the seventies (I don't know why, Gandalf has a fvcking sword). That people would take the admission in a public arena that the archetype existed as a rallying point is understandable.

-Username17

[Save_versus_Stupid]

So frank, is there some history between you and wizards I don't know about?

I don't really understand how taking credit for something is a violation of their board rules.

[Crissa]

Well, Frank, in this case, you can be frank and say 'No, this ID isn't me' just like they wanted, right?

-Crissa

Mages in World of Warcraft use swords.

[Lago_AM3P]

The concept of a fighter/mage is fairly new, but it's also getting really common.

As far as I can see, though, D&D implemented all of the mage-screwing rules and legacy a bit before the concept really took off. I mean, jedis had pretty weaksauce powers in the movies at the time but got cooler ones in the books as the series took off, Final Fantasy became popular, we accepted Batman as an iconic fighting character (important, because he pretty much defines the fighter/mage archetype in American works)...

Heck, the fighter/mage archetype is so common that it's hard to find characters in action anime that are only one or the other. And fighter/mages are becoming more popular in American works, it's only a matter of time.

[User3]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the elf race/class the original D&D fighter/mage? Or at least the Bard (which required Fighter/Mage/Thief multiclassing).

[dbb]

In White Box, elves could choose whether they wanted to count as a fighter or a wizard for any particular adventure; in BECMI, "elf" was the fighter/mage class.

I'm not sure whether the idea is really new at all. Elric of Melnibone, Harold Shea, and Gandalf are all "classic fantasy" characters who capture the "wizard with a sword" concept. I think the D&D idea of wizards was just more heavily influenced by Jack Vance, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, etc. Unlike Lord of the Rings, their stories tend to be more episodic in the fashion of a series of D&D adventures, and I'd imagine that, since that was the style of story they wanted to play, that was where they took inspiration for the wizard archetype. We've been patching the system ever since to compensate for the fact that the basic character classes just don't capture enough of the archetypes of heroic fantasy adventure to satisfy people.

--d.

[Lago_AM3P]

Here are a few 'improvements' to K's gish build, especially for 3.5.

K is not kidding about becoming a tank at third level. But the spell you really want is alter self--you can use it to turn into a Lizardfolk and pocket a +5 natural armor bonus. If you're an elf and use the default stat array, your armor class is probably 22 (10 + 3 Dex + 5 Natural Armor + 4 armor) before anything funky like rings of protection or any of that.

Also if for some reason you don't have magic weaponry at this point (which is understandable since you have a cleric, fighter, and rogue in your party) you can always use your natural weaponry. The extra bite attack really helps you close the BAB arms race against the fighter.

---

Also, at 5th level, I don't care who you are. You picked up craft wondrous item (unless you're trying to get into a PrC that requires a metamagic feat--then it's extend spell).

You are effectively doubling your party's money when you do this, for one thing. Furthermore if your DM lets you sell items it lets you recycle items that you aren't excited about (such as a +1 ki strike dagger) into something that you are (2 +2 cloaks of resistance).


Also, if you have that +1 spellstoring weapon, you really want to put vampiric touch in there. It does less damage than other spells but helps with your tanking in case you run out of mirror images (likely if you run into an opponent with great cleave) or your false life spell runs out of mojo.

[erik]

1148664310[/unixtime]]But the spell you really want is alter self--you can use it to turn into a Lizardfolk and pocket a +5 natural armor bonus.

Troglodyte for the Monster Manual win. +6 natural armor, along with multiattack as a bonus feat which you also gain, so you can claw-claw-bite pretty darn well.

[Book]

In my game experience, Gishes biggest obstacles (and highest cause of deaths/dilemmas) are:

1. Inability to effectively recover from a multi-removal Dispel Magic (say, losing 4-6 buffs). Unlike backrow squishy mages, your Gish ass is plugging away under the immediate threat of tooth, claw, and sword on the frontline. Dispel Magics can absolutely be a true death sentence to Gishes who are either not prepared for this contingency and/or are poorly esconced up on a vicious frontline. Yes, certain magic item combos can help deal with Dispel Magic contingencies - but many play situations won't allow the Gish to be in possession of them.

2. Inability to effectively respond to surprise/ambushes when unbuffed. And a lot of this has to do with tactical placement within the party. Most Gishes I see go down - go down in the surprise round or the round after.

[Crissa]

Why is that a problem, Book?

It seems like a feature, rather than a problem. If that 'problem' didn't exist, there'd be no difference between unarmed strike vs anything else...

-Crissa

[Book]

I didn't say it was a problem. I provided for you my observations within my local metagame environments.

Gishes *were* extremely popular in my area for many years. But due to their higher than normal attrition rate, they are not as popular as they used to be. Which is ashame - because as I earlier stated, they are much more viable to play now that there is a bevy of Gish-friendly swift-action spells available in their potential arsenal.

[dbb]

Book, could you talk in a little more detail about the type of builds you're accustomed to seeing? I'm curious as to what it was about them that tended to make them less survivable -- lack of hit points, lack of AC, et cet. The buffhappy nature of a lot of fighter/mage (and, for that matter, cleric) builds is of particular annoyance to me, so more data on what kills them faster is very useful.

I am inclined to think that taking advantage of tricks like gyth-crafted mithril shirts with thistledown padding can mitigate some of the problems, but I would expect that the hit point disparity is hard to rectify without resorting to magic (and not easy even then).

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

The hardest thing with Gishs in my experience is actually getting them off the ground. Sure, they're awesome at 20th level, but try playing one from 1st to 7th or so, and it's brutal. Since back then you really don't have the resources to be churning out wraithstrikes left and right and your buffs don't even last all that long. Not to mention you really can't afford any great magic items.

[erik]

1149034047[/unixtime]]The hardest thing with Gishs in my experience is actually getting them off the ground. Sure, they're awesome at 20th level, but try playing one from 1st to 7th or so, and it's brutal.

I haven't gotten to play a decent gish in 3.5 yet, but my 1 fighter/5 wizard in 3.0 rocked the cazbah from level 1 on, I actually planned on taking Acolyte of the Skin just to tone him down some if we kept at that campaign. His schtick was mainly being an archer who the enemy could not hit due to his huge AC and avoidance capabilities (be it by running faster, alter selfed wings, or fly spell).

A Gish early on isn't that far off from a fighter in attack bonus or iterative attacks, so while they may feel slightly inferior to a normal caster, they shouldn't feel weak at all. If a gish is brutal to get off the ground, then so is a fighter.

In response to Book's observations.
1) if you are losing 4-6 buffs to a dispel then you are facing a caster with a much higher level than you. And he's using a 5th level slot too (i.e. if you have 4-6+ buffs running, then your caster level is high enough that dispel magic's +10 isn't gonna cut it). Be extremely happy that this caster who could easily TPK your group is instead wasting his time debuffing one character.

Go buy the DM a coke for being such a nice guy, after your party mops the floor with that EL +5 encounter.

I am basing my conclusions based on the assumption that the gish does not have 10+ buffs running and is only losing half of them, and that he is not a moron and actually took the practiced spellcaster feat (practically a pre-req for crafting your own items, which most gishes should want to do). If he is losing all his buffs to a targeted dispel, then he should do a little jig of joy that that is all he lost.

2) This is why it is important to build gishes that are not dependent upon Divine Power or Tenser's Transformation. Your walkabout stats should have decent HP still, along with a reasonable attack bonus and AC that is not ooze-like. This notion is the only reason to bother taking levels in crap like Eldritch Knight, which happens to be a staple of gish builds. If the gish is getting dropped in the surprise round (to a single standard action?!), then the wizard is dead, and the cleric is waning right there beside him.

[RandomCasualty]

1149079369[/unixtime]]
I haven't gotten to play a decent gish in 3.5 yet, but my 1 fighter/5 wizard in 3.0 rocked the cazbah from level 1 on, I actually planned on taking Acolyte of the Skin just to tone him down some if we kept at that campaign. His schtick was mainly being an archer who the enemy could not hit due to his huge AC and avoidance capabilities (be it by running faster, alter selfed wings, or fly spell).

Well honestly, I'm surprised that you did very well with that.

I mean, basically if the wizard just plays the avoidance game, you can just clean up his party members, since all your high level spell slots are invested in spells to run away instead of fighting. Minimum that's at least protection from arrows and some kind of flight spell. Unless your stats are super high, it's going to be tough to have the high strength, high dex and high int that it takes to be a good wizard archer. Did you have crappy int or what?

[erik]

1149107077[/unixtime]]Did you have crappy int or what?

Heh, me or my character?

Nevermind. I did have decent stats on that character but they were superfluous. As an archer all I needed was a decent Dex and Str which I had. Int 14 gets me where I need to go for spellcasting.

To recount, at 6th level the character has 3 less attack bonus than a straight fighting type. This is ablated by having GMW on bow and arrows. I missed more frequently than a straight fighting type, but archers weren't hurting for attack and damage in 3.0.

My theory behind the build was that archers never want to be in melee, and wizards have all the tools for staying out of melee. Putting them together could work as a "good thing".

For attack avoidance all I needed usually was Alter Self for wings. It's crappy flight, but it's still farther away than reach weapons can hit. As for the rest of the party soaking hits. Whether I wore a wizard or archer hat, taking hits wasn't really my party role anyway. Any wizard that isn't playing the avoidance game needs his head examined, and even if I used alllll my spells to defend (which was rarely the case), I still contributed as a decent archer. Not a great archer since I had less iterative attacks, but great archers were crazy-go-nuts in 3.0 anyway.

[Save_versus_Stupid]

Book - "Yes, certain magic item combos can help deal with Dispel Magic contingencies - but many play situations won't allow the Gish to be in possession of them."

Is a ring of counterspell : dispel magic that hard to come by, even earlier in your career? 4000 gp plus the scroll, if you don't know the spell.

[RandomCasualty]

1149112232[/unixtime]]
For attack avoidance all I needed usually was Alter Self for wings. It's crappy flight, but it's still farther away than reach weapons can hit. As for the rest of the party soaking hits. Whether I wore a wizard or archer hat, taking hits wasn't really my party role anyway. Any wizard that isn't playing the avoidance game needs his head examined, and even if I used alllll my spells to defend (which was rarely the case), I still contributed as a decent archer. Not a great archer since I had less iterative attacks, but great archers were crazy-go-nuts in 3.0 anyway.

Ah okay, yeah, it's been awhile since I played 3.0.