Help with concepts for new campaign

[mean_liar]

I'm fishing for ideas for a character in a campaign a friend is starting soon. He's a control freak DM, will basically disallow Craft feats, and only hands out items that he thinkgs we should have - ie, no magic item economy exists. He likes minmaxed characters, but hates twinky shit... any PrCs available therefore come with mondo RP restrictions, and dipping in and out of PrCs basically makes him cripple your character with obligations to supremely powerful factions you'll never be able to satisfy. The only real way around this is to have your PrCs thematically similar, so that you can minimize the number of people who own your ass.

Finally, there's only going to be 2 of us in the party. So being multifaceted is key, as well as being able to be somewhat durable in combat. I had considered a straight arcane caster, but the DMs unhidden hatred of wizards, expected paucity of available spells for copying, gleeful disregard for most divination spells and any other spell he doesn't like, plentiful low- and no-magic areas, and love of well-designed ambushes made me leery of being a low-HP character.

So, these are the ideas I've been playing with so far:

Cloistered Cleric 1 / Fighter (UA variant w/ Sneak Attack) 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Shadowbane Stalker 8 / Church Inquisitor 7
Skills and dvine casting.

Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 / Runesmith 1 / Havoc Mage 5 / Eldritch Knight 8
Fighting wizard. The recent Gish thread has me expecting a good load of poo-pooing this idea. That's good.

Some form of cleric. I always play clerics, because they're so god damn badass. His campaign setting and house rules makes them even more comparitively badass, since the wizards are always scrambling for spells. Presumably my amazing and beautiful spellcasting will cover for my lack of skills.

Some form of druid. For some reason I dislike playing druids. I'd only play one if I decided that I just couldn't stand playing yet another cleric.

Any ideas you've got would be appreciated.

[RandomCasualty]

Well, it really sounds like this is more of a DM issue than a character optimization issue. depends on what kinds of stuff your DM will let you get away with.

It's all about finding his min/max versus twink threshold.

If you give us an idea of the stuff that he disallows, we may have a better idea as to what characters he'd let you play.

[Book]

A lot depends too, on your:

1. Starting level of play
2. Your partner's conjectural build (or build concept)
3. Campaign parameters (dungeon crawl, urban intrigue, Underdark, etc.)

Ideally, you want to condense your archetypical Iconic-4 into a 2-man synergy unit.

I have ideas - but more information is needed.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'm fishing for ideas for a character in a campaign a friend is starting soon. He's a control freak DM, will basically disallow Craft feats, and only hands out items that he thinkgs we should have - ie, no magic item economy exists. He likes minmaxed characters, but hates twinky shit... any PrCs available therefore come with mondo RP restrictions, and dipping in and out of PrCs basically makes him cripple your character with obligations to supremely powerful factions you'll never be able to satisfy. The only real way around this is to have your PrCs thematically similar, so that you can minimize the number of people who own your ass.

First off, the amount of organizational PrCs in this game are low and continue to get lower over time. While PrCs are just basically taking levels in a made-up class, if your DM house rules them by declaring that you have to be in a cabal of sacred fists or loremasters or archmages or whatever, that's fine.

However if he's doing this then he'd better also be open to the idea of custom-tailoring PrCs to fit the player. I understand some DMs only allow published PrCs--despite Frank's complaints about this this is sometimes a necessary evil as it saves time (you and the DM don't have to spend time working things out and you effectively take off his worlkload), encourages long-term planning and minimizes confusion on the other players' parts.

And of course there are people who custom make all of their PrCs. That's fine, too. However, if you're willing to take from column A and column B that makes you a complete tool if you ignore the player input part and just implement rules that stifle character development because it makes you feel better.

That said if your DM insists on doing this and you just have to play with him, do this instead.

Be a druid.

I know you don't like druids and all. But I notice that you like monks. When I think of players who love fist-fighters I think of you.

This will hurt your character a lot in the beginning if you go monk 1 / druid X whatever. And unless you're willing to use the FAQ cheese of stacking unarmed strikes and natural weapons on him (in which case this becomes a very viable build indeed) won't result in a payoff in the end.

However, your character becomes a ninja--which is what I think you wanted all along. Druids have a nice bevy of skill points. This also benefits you by letting you drop some of your physical stats and investing in skill points.

Here are two suggested builds on the levels you gave us, depending on where your DM's threshhold for teh cheese is.

Monk 1 / Druid 9 / Contemplative 1 / Whatever Else.

Basic bullshit RP explanation: Your monk seeks enlightmentment from the nature spirits by emulating animal forms in his unarmed attacks. Eventually he gets so skilled that Yggdrasill himself comes and bestows upon you the awesomeness that is the War / Hero / Competition domain. You want to be either an illuminan or a human. You're picking up dragon wildshape, too, because that is the shiz and you will rip enemies apart.

Alternately, if you're starting at a higher level and your DM has quite a bit of tolerance for level shaving madness:

Ex-Monk 1 / Sorceror 1 / Druid 3 / Arcane Hierophant Whatever

Relevant feats: Arcane Disciple: War / Hero / Orc / Competition / whatever hands out divine power.

The above build works pretty much the same, though you're going to have to throw in some bullshit explanation about how you've abandoned your faith in order and civilization and inner discipline and all that crap.

The arcane hierophant description in Races of the Wild also pretty much explicitly states that they're all brooding loners, so POINTS FOR YOU.

You need the precocious apprentice feat. If your DM has caught wind of the stupid stealth nerf then you'll need that feat in Races of the Dragon that lets you set fire to two lower level spells to case a higher level one. If your DM isn't aware of the stupid stealth nerf, then substitute that dumb sorceror level for a sweet wizard level. And while you're at it, you might want to check out the specialist wizard variants in Player Handbook II. Abrupt Jaunt and Sudden Shift are good ones.

[Book]

The one issue to note with the new-Wildshape-rules 3.5 druid is ... the rules can be confusing and unfun for many players (vets & newbies). Popular consensus seems to be that PHB-2 era Wildshape is maddeningly frustrating from an "at table" perspective. Causing lots of play slowdowns with constant referencing of the new rules and nixing of old play mechanics and combos.

Otherwise, I'll hold off on further suggestions until I hear more about the questions I posted above.

[mean_liar]

Lago, thanks for the rundown. The first is probably better/best, and I'll be spending some time with it.

RC, you've hit the real issue on the head. It really is a DM vs. PCs sort of problem rather than any objective goal to be achieved. I'm usually the one running games, so I lack a lot of perspective on what exactly this particular DM is going to be tossing at us.

Book, the game is going to be based on intrigue mostly, with lots of wilderness stuff thrown in. Dungeoncrawling is a non-issue. Game should start at level 1. And I have no idea what my partner is making - I assume a cleric of some sort.

More later, thanks for the help.

[Lago_AM3P]

If you're starting at level 1, take druid levels until level 5 and pray to god that you can get a raptor form.

That way, when you take your monk level at 6 (getting screwed the pooch on BAB and the spellcasting level and wildshape advance and...) you'll at least be on a decent platform to launch your attacks. The right Illuminan sigils will really help out, too.

I mean, if you're only two people to a party there's no way you're going to get off the ground starting as a monk. That's just the way it is.

[Crissa]

Yeah, I've played Monk as lvl 1 so many times that I want to put a fist into the face of the next person who keeps rating monks on how wonderful lvl 20 is. All those wonderful abilties mean nothing when they arrive five to ten levels to late to care.

I'd say go with the cleric. At least with a crazed DM you get away with being badass, and you end up being the tank anyhow as your lack of 1:1 BAB seems to throw the DM off the scent.

-Crissa

[mean_liar]

What's with the Monk level in the Druid build? Wouldn't it just be better to advance spellcasting and forego the saves? Is it for Improved Grapple?

Personally, if I did it I would use the FAQ cheese. I'll be a raptor, then leap on em, claw, claw, bite, rake, etc, then HEADBUTT x3 with my BAB.

[Book]

Starting at level 1 means paying more attention to buildcraft concepts from levels 1-6, than that of 1-20. Just getting to 5th/6th level will probably take you a long time and in that time, other interesting game mechanics will no doubt surface from WotC. Levels 3-6 will be crucial in prepping your character for PrC entries.

I'll also assume that PHB-2 Retraining is a no go (if I am reading your DM right).

So here are the quasi-definites:

1. Campaign Direction = Intrigue & Woodlands adventuring.
2. Partner Build = Cleric.
3. Trapfinding Needs = Not stated, but looks unneccessary.
4. DM Hate = Wizards, Crafting, Multiple PrC'ing.

***

That said, a Druid and a Cleric should be able to sufficienty enjoy and "win" this game. By default, you are the Druid. And unless Lion of Talisid (BoED) or that awesome Eberron Druid PrC captures your fancy, straight Druid should be your ticket to success.

I'd avoid the Monk dip for WIS-to-AC and go full throttle with SC levels, Wildshape, & BAB. Druid feats are few-&-far-between. Ergo, human or feat halfling seems your best bet. The extra skills for human will be more crucial in a 2-man party than in a trad 4-man party. Especially since your Cleric friend will be sporting 2 skills/level and might be dumping INT.

[Lago_AM3P]

What's with the Monk level in the Druid build? Wouldn't it just be better to advance spellcasting and forego the saves? Is it for Improved Grapple?

I only suggested the monk level because I thought you were the monk-man and that you despised playing druids.

There is actually no need to take a monk level. In fact, you can get by (do better) just by being a druid with a monk's belt and improved unarmed strike.

[Neeek]

Is your DM equally anti-psionic? If not, you could make an Ardent or Psychic Warrior. They both are pretty good at not dying. A Warlock also might be a good fit for this sort of campaign, unless you expect you DM to make your abilities pointless most of the time.