WELCOME TO THE STEALTH NERF THREAD!!!!!eleven

[Lago_AM3P]

THIS IS THE GODDAMN STEALTH NERF THREAD.

Please post all of the goddamn stealth nerfs they've implemented, so we'll have a written record of the tragic tale of how WotC completely roundhouse non-magical characters in the face.

Stealth Nerf A- In 3.5E, rogues and rangers no longer get bonus damage when striking invisible opponents. In 3.0E, they did.

Stealth Nerf B- In 3.5E, characters that take the total defense action cannot take attacks of opportunity. In 3.0E, there was no provision that disallowed this course of activity.

These are but a sampling of the goddamn stealth nerfs in this edition.

THANKS FOR POSTING IN THE GODDAMN STEALTH NERF THREAD. YOUR HELP IS APPRECIATED FOR HIGHLIGHTING THE GODDAMN LEGACY OF SHAME THIRD AND A GODDAMN HALF EDITION PROMOTES.

[Username17]

Rogue Stealth Nerfs:

1a: Rogues have never been able to sneak attack a creature with concealment. Invisible creatures usually have concealment.

1: In 3rd edition a Rogue was not allowed to gain sneak attack on a creature by readying an attack action and striking when the monster reached into the Rogue's square. In 3.5 you can't attack the limbs of such a creature at all, and Halflings are banned from sneak attacking Minotaurs in melee at all.

2: Hide no longer allows a character to avoid being seen without the "Hide in Plain Sight" magical power - and Rogues don't get that power.

3: The printing of the Appraise Magic Value feat fvcked the Appraise skill.

4: Balance got reworked so that the "off balance" condition was replaced by the "Flat Footed" condition. That means that characters with Uncanny Dodge are immune to Sneak Attack while standing on grease.

5: Expert Tactician no longer adds extra Sneak Attack, now sucks donkey balls instead.

6: Hear the Unseen feat prevents normal characters from using Listen to fight invisible opponents.

7: Feinting reworked so that charcaters oppose it with Sense Motive plus Base attack Bonus, so Feinting no longer functions at all. Considering how marginal it was to begin with, this is a major nut kick to combat feinters.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

8) From Rules of the Game: magically flying creatures are immune to tripping.

9) Ride by attack doens't even work.

10) Charging and trampling totally sucks. you trample one guy then your charge ends.

[Username17]

Oh, we're doing Fighter nerfs now? That's painful:

11) Characters cannot charge through allied squares.

12) Characters may only charge the single closest square that they would be able to reach their opponent from if it wasn't occupied rather than simply a square that they can reach their opponent from.

13) Overrun is a standard action that may not be combined with a charge.

14) You cannot charge through difficult terrain or any other impediment no matter how ludicrous.

[*] Note: The preceding nerfs, when taken in aggragate, prevent Ride-by-Attack and Trample from doing anything, as well creating the dreaded "Wall of Chihuahuas" that lancers cannot pass.

15) Whirlwind Attack, as part of an ill-conceived nerf of the Bag-of-Rats, no longer alllows a character to benefit from multiple weapons or any other source of bonus attacks.

16) Power attack no longer adds damage to Two Weapon Fighting.

17) Characters have to take more than one level in Ranger to get TWF in the first place.

18) Weapon handedness rulings have become so extremely convoluted that noone even knows how TWF works as soon as a character gets armor spikes.

[*] Note: The preceding Nerfs kill Two Weapon Fighting in every case where it was even vaguely OK for any character except Rogues. As of now, only Rogues are able to benefit from fighting with two short swords, it might as well not even be a Fighter bonus feat.

19) Weapon Sizes have been "simplified" so that they are now so complex that noone can actually explain them and the new formatting is actually an information lossy conversion such that some key weapon information is no longer in weapon stats.

20) Halflings now take penalties when using any martial weapon you are ever likely to find.

21) The item resizing rules have been rewritten subtly such that there is now a lot less equipment that small characters can wear.

22) The rules for being in squares have become much more draconic such that small characters often simply cannot escape from larger foes.

[*] Note: the preceding nerfs have taken the Gnome Knight out behind the shack and ass mangled it. Small Samurai just aren't playable anymore.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Stealth Nerf A- In 3.5E, rogues and rangers no longer get bonus damage when striking invisible opponents. In 3.0E, they did.

1a: Rogues have never been able to sneak attack a creature with concealment. Invisible creatures usually have concealment.

The reason why I pointed out this nerf was because simply being able to see a creature now (like with true seeing) doesn't allow a rogue or a ranger to gain bonus damage now. They are still under the invisible status effect, no matter how good you can see them, and you can never sneak attack them.


You forgot two for TWFing, too, Frank:

Two-Weapon Fighting has a much higher dexterity prequisite than before, to the point where there's a good chance that a single-classed fighter on a 25 point scheme will probably not be able to get it until like level 4-6. Right in time for him to not be able to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Improved Shield Bash no longer knocks a foe 5 feet backwards (like it originally appeared in Defenders of the Faith) which made it an excellent tool for defensive two-weapon fighting. Now it's no good.

And here's two miscellaneous nerfs.

Skill bonus items have drastically increased in price.

That stupid nerf in the Dungeon Master's Guide where foes aren't allowed to have Goggles of Ogre Strength (the blurb says to actively disallow it) and charges a price premium for 'mismatched' items. Also the nerf prevents you from using your Craft Wondrous Item feat to duplicate the effect of rings; seriously, there is no body spot affinity chart for rings which means that you can't have cloaks of invisibility. What the hell...?

[Edit] EVEN MORE STEALTH NERFS.

Sorcerers not being able to apply metamagic without the increased casting time (a houserule from Tome and Blood) is now core. They didn't even give sorcerers the decency this time around of having Arcane Preparation in the same book.

Monks can no longer use animated shields. So much for even trying to be the 'AC kings' in 3.X edition. Now it's actually impossible for a monk to lay claim to this title. Stupidly enough, they have monks belts out there for druids in the same book which allows them to contemptuously claim the monk's title of 'AC king' if their DM doesn't let them have wild armor.

This isn't really a core rules stealth nerf, but notice that monks in this edition Monks have exactly one prestige class in 3.5E that advances their weird flurry of blows scheme. That prestige class is in Tome and Blood. There weren't a lot of UBAB-advancing prestige classes in 3.0E but they were in relatively easy to access books. So it's very likely that mid/high level monks will attack even worse in 3.5E than their 3.0E counterpart. Combined with the AC nerf above, you should beg your DM to let you play a 3rd edition monk, complete with shitty Ki Strike abilities.

The ioun stone of spell-storing has a higher price/spell ratio and has a spell cap now. So much for rogues being able to compete by having anti-magic field or divine power or persistent divine favor in one of those things. Rings of spell-storing are just too goddamned expensive.

Archery now sucks a lot more if you're not a dedicated archer, increased strength bows or no. Bracers of archery are more expensive and arrow enhancement bonuses no longer stack (unless you above the arrows of defending trick). If you can't con your DM into letting you have spell-storing arrows, you shouldn't even bother using archery unless you're a spellcaster archer or a rogue.

Goddamn, this list is getting huge. I'm feeling depressed now.

[Lago_AM3P]

Also, freedom of movement allows spellcasters to completely and contemptuously ignore anything that wants to grapple them. It's explicit in this edition.

Admittedly, it's not a big deal, since very few monsters can cast this spell. But it's just another way for 3.5E to rub in your face that spellcasters are better than you.

[RandomCasualty]

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22) The rules for being in squares have become much more draconic such that small characters often simply cannot escape from larger foes.

What do you mean by this?

[Username17]

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22) The rules for being in squares have become much more draconic such that small characters often simply cannot escape from larger foes.

What do you mean by this?

In third edition, moving into an occupied square provoked an attack of opportunity. In 3.5, moving into an occupied square is impossible, a subtle difference to be sure, but one which makes a minotaur in a hallway an impassable barrier rather than a dangerous foe.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

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In third edition, moving into an occupied square provoked an attack of opportunity. In 3.5, moving into an occupied square is impossible, a subtle difference to be sure, but one which makes a minotaur in a hallway an impassable barrier rather than a dangerous foe.

But don't you have to move inot their square to provoke a grapple? Or is that a special exception mechanic?

[Fwib]

You can tumble through occupied squares too, and bull-rush the enemy out of the way, or that manoeuvre that lets you push him down and rush through, or make him prone by tripping or something and then move through.

OK, some of those are quite hard on a minotaur, but its hardly impassable, just hard-to-pass, as you'd expect.

[Username17]

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1147734315[/unixtime]]
In third edition, moving into an occupied square provoked an attack of opportunity. In 3.5, moving into an occupied square is impossible, a subtle difference to be sure, but one which makes a minotaur in a hallway an impassable barrier rather than a dangerous foe.

But don't you have to move inot their square to provoke a grapple? Or is that a special exception mechanic?

That's a special exception mechanic. also you perform the grapple and then move into their square. You don't get to go into an occupied square unless you win the grapple.

Similarly, tumbling through occupied squares now requires that you succeed at the tumble check before it allows you into the square (no more ttempting the move and then ailing the roll and getting an AoO on you).

You can tumble through occupied squares too

Not against a Minotaur you can't. The tumble through occupied square option in 3.5 requires that you:

1. Move no more than 1/4 of your speed.
2. Do not end your move in an occupied square.

So if you have a Move of, say, 40 feet (because you're a human Barbarian Rogue,for example), you can move 2 squares and can't end in an occupied square. Since the Minotaur is now two squares across, you can't perform the action.

Just moving from one side of a Minotaur to the other requires a base speed of 60 feet. Relatively few characters have that.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

Wow Frank, I never actually realized that, but it looks like you're right. That is quite the stealth nerf. Though I'm actually not sure if that's necessarily bad for fightes or not. I think that's more a stealth nerf to rogues more than anything. For fighters (enlarged fighters anyway) it may actually make them better at their job as the blocking meat shield.

[Fwib]

Tumbling through an occupied square is 1/2 speed, according to the SRD, and you can take a DC penalty to accelerated tumble at full speed.

Admittedly, tumble isnt the easiest of skills to get a high check in.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

• 5 ranks in the Profession (herbalist) skill no longer grants a +2 synergy bonus to Heal skill checks.
• In 3.0, a shield was always considered a light weapon. In 3.5 a small shield is considered a light weapon while a heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon.

They were stealthy to me, anyway.

[User3]

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• ... while a heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon.

Which means that you can power attack with it...

[Lago_AM3P]

I'm going to say that overall, it's a stealth nerf.

While this does help out Captain America types who fight solely with a shield, this screws sword and board users; presumably there's a lot more sword and board users than Captain America/Goofy types.

Also, the only reason why this change is beneficial at all is due to the damn power attack change, which shouldn't have happened in the first place.

So, stealth nerf.