Thoughts on d20 Modern

[Lago_AM3P]

- Spellcasting in this game is something else. As in, it's wild and weird but for the most part really not all that good. Black sheep spells like fireball suddenly have a new life to them, as dropping a 10d6 fireball is actually something that should frighten a lot of enemies.

Buffs in this game for the most part stink; someone with levels in Soldier or Field Officer (d20 future) can give bonuses to your party probably way better than you can. However, there are some MAJOR exceptions. Stoneskin, for example, is such a good spell that pretty much any divine caster will want to be a shaman (druid). If your DM lets you abuse the online casting and a cell phone trick, then you want at least one mage and shaman/acolyte in ever party.

Psionic characters are disgustingly pitiful in this game. After 10 levels in battlemind, for example, you get a grand total of one 4th level psionic power and 2 3rd level powers and a whopping 33 power points to use them on. And their main class features (manifesting a psychic blade and shield) last really short amounts of time and take move equivalent actions to use. Telepaths are like mages except that they have less class features and they suck. The exception to this is the psionic agent, who compared to the gunslinger trades a little of the gunslinger's raw power for some wild and weird mobility powers.

Incantations are included, they're a part of core rules, for some stupid reason you're expected to use them. They're like regular spells except that they emulate 'epic' spells, operate off of skill checks and have no limit. Their 'balancing' factor is that they take a long time to cast but it's really no big deal.

- Cybernetics and mutations OTOH are really good. You should do your best to grab as many as you can. They're cheap and don't come with any real drawbacks.

- The wealth system is something else. It eventually reaches the point in D&D where people are gold-farming the elemental planes of earth, except that d20 modern cuts out the middle man and the silliness and just states you can get unlimited goods once you have a high enough number. This creates lots of problems in Urban Arcana (where there are magic items for sell and creation) and d20 future.

- Characters are very generic in this game for the most part, especially if you want to participate in combat. This game has totally bought into this idea that 3/4ths BAB classes should be the norm for fighting classes. Advanced classes like 'soldier' and 'gunslinger' and 'bodyguard' and 'weaponmaster' get 3/4ths BAB. What the hell? Seriously, no fighting character wants this crap. Sooner or later, Holy Knight will appear on every primary fighter's class; the Holy Knight's distinction being that they will dish out more raw damage without caring than anyone who is in a melee class, gets huge bonuses to saves and defense, and even gets (for this game) a pretty good spell list. Holy Knight is better than the first five levels of any primary fighting class in core D&D (including the sourcebooks), I shit you not.

Same goes for Shadow Slayer. They get an auto-stun power against any monster that doesn't have class levels, significant damage reduction, and even fast healing.

Martial Artists have no purpose in the standard campaign setting. Seriously, they'll just get their asses handed to them. However, things change dramatically in Urban Arcana. They'll get magic items and eventually have their damage skyrocket like whoa for important battles, ESPECIALLY if they have Holy Knight levels or use incantations. They will probably want to take levels in shapeshifter (see the d20 modern web enhancement), which for the most part is a raw deal for characters but for the martial artist completely ports over all of their abilities.

- If a DM introduces a vampire into this game, you are completely fscked unless he force feeds you deus ex machinas or you have a character tooled up to the maximum.


More later. All of my other d20 modern threads seem to be flopping.

[PhoneLobster]

I used d20 modern fairly extensively for low level (about 1-6) non prestige class characters to add some options and a teeny power up to a bunch of d20 cthulhu games I was running for a while there.

Here are a few observations I remember.

I ultimately decided it sucked worse than just using the d20 cthulhu book alone. It offered little in the way of meaningful additional choices or function and lots in the way of problematic crap.

The base classes are supposedly based on certain attributes. But there is no requirement that you invest heavily in the attribute matching your class/classes and often its wise not to.

The three base classes based on the mental stats suck big time. They punish your combaty goodness and give you nothing remotely good for anything at all in return. They are the to d20 modern what the tech specialist is to d20 star wars, and thats saying a lot.

Everyone usually wants at least one level of Fast just for the defense bonus if not for evasion (because explosives are the bees knees for low level characters). I'm not saying its the WISEST choice in the world, just that everyone seems to want it, player after player after player, the only way I stopped every last player for d20 modern I ever had from playing Fast characters was pointing out they could multiclass Fast and something else.

They were probably right though. Across the board Fast was good. Best defence, nice saves, second best BAB (only strong had the good stuff), second best hit points, damn good skill points, nice universally useful class abilities, nice bonus feats. You could build most characters off of fast. Want to be charismatic social skill guy? Be Fast and take the right proffession, all that you get from being an actual Charismatic character over that is punishment. Go ahead be tough (for about 2 extra hit points or something per level and inferior EVERYTHING else), or strong (best BAB and inferior everything), or any of the other mental stat classes (for inferior everything with no exceptions).

Without prestige classes a gunslinger who wants to be the dead eye accurate hit all the time guy wants a high dex score and as many levels of Strong hero as possible for the BAB. Then they feel bad about getting melee smash as a class ability and a bunch of off target bonus feats but what choice do they really have? Well they can suck the BAB hit and be Fast like everyone else I suppose...

Odds are almost every build aiming to get you into ANY prestige class runs off of being either a Strong hero (if BAB is a requirement) or a Fast hero (has all the other resources to get you there and otherwise brings more to the character along the way). With the publishing of a feat that gives you class abilities of the other core classes, or more from your own, (forget which book but its there) there is no obvious good reason to ever be a Smart hero.

I'm not entirely sure but I vaguely recall figuring a pretty simple urban arcana build using a certain urban arcana starting proffession that could set you up to enter a spellcasting prestige class insanely early (which is when it needs to happen).

[User3]

The Heir [Future] background is mad, giving a wealth bonus that can't drop below 10.

Combine this with the fact that you can make feat webs with Cybertaker to wear as many cybernetic components as you could ever desire, and you're set for life.

Also, you can upgrade your Bioroid friend for 'free,' giving him physical ability scores of 37+13 (DC 30) and mental of 27+8 (DC 30). Integrated crystal carbon armor is only DC 27.
He'll also have a fsckload of skill nets, meaning that together you have every feat and every skill in the game.

You want to be a Smart 2/Strong 1/Technosavant 10, and the robot will want to be something that gets full BAB (he doesn't care about base HP or skills).

[Lago_AM3P]

If you want to be a rogue in this game, be a gangster.

They're not that much worse off than D&D rogues. They get a die less of sneak attack in exchange for getting crippling strike and skill mastery a bit earlier.

Of course, gangster gets a lot of complaints in this game about being overpowered. It might be. But then, it's probably about equal to the primary spellcasters, the shadow slayer, soldier, field officer, etc.

Combine this with the fact that you can make feat webs with Cybertaker to wear as many cybernetic components as you could ever desire, and you're set for life.

Unfortunately, biodroids cannot have cybernetic attachments (WTF?). Alas.

[User3]

1144729937[/unixtime]]

Combine this with the fact that you can make feat webs with Cybertaker to wear as many cybernetic components as you could ever desire, and you're set for life.

Unfortunately, biodroids cannot have cybernetic attachments (WTF?). Alas.

That is too bad (or not, if one wants to cling to the tattered vestiges of broken game balance...), but that's not what I was meaning. I just meant that the combo of a (human) heir (robots don't get backgrounds either ) and his robot friend could include almost every relevant ability in the game.

[User3]

Sorry for the double post.

I was just examining the Past, and gangsters are pretty badass.

The real gem, however, is the Shaman. Wow. No only do you get to be Voodoo-cool, but you have a decent spell list, an animal companion...oh, and a "wild shape" variant where you 'meld' with said companion, making you voodoo Dr. Croc. And (for the most part) adding together all abilities you and your companion have. In D20M, this is at least as powerful as the druid in D&D, if not moreso.

[Lago_AM3P]

I give up.

This game sucks.

The hp system is out of control, melee vs. ranged is completely unbalanced for most of this game, and monsters buttsex PCs without respite.

[Username17]

Pretty much, yeah. There's some cool ideas in d20 Modern. The thing where everyone has to take starter classes and work into PrCs because the starter classes aren't even intended to go 20 levels is the direction that d20 should go.

But the execution is off. The D&D spell system such as it works at all is grounded in starting from level 1. A first level spell just doesn't matter at level 5, which is why catch-up spellcasting classes are always ass (even when they are overpowered, Ur Priest is world conquering at character level 14, but it's 1001 uses for a prolapsed sphincter at character level 7).

Added to the basic problems of taking D&D and making it "low magic", and you've got something that doesn't work at all. A Shadow is immune to damage except from magic sources. Other than that, it's not all that impressive. But that means that to have any chance against it at all, a D&D party needs to be guaranteed of having magical weaponry - by 2nd level. If you reduce the magic level so that players can no longer take that as given, the first incorporeal foe will kill the entire party without rolling dice.

So yeah:

• 
  
• Spellcasting isn't integrated into the prestige class concept.
  
• Challenge Ratings are not re-tooled to the players' reduced capabilities.
  
• They still haven't found a solution for Fighters sucking.
  

And you know what? That means that it's a bad game. There are elements that should be folded into D&D, but a table needs at least 3 legs for proper stability.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Pretty much, yeah. There's some cool ideas in d20 Modern. The thing where everyone has to take starter classes and work into PrCs because the starter classes aren't even intended to go 20 levels is the direction that d20 should go.

Actually, I hate this 'feature' so hard. It's probably because classes are for the most part astonishingly shitty (with a few OMG levels thrown here and there).

They still haven't found a solution for Fighters sucking.

This is a HUGE deal because it's almost impossible to make a 'non-fighter'. Actually, wait, it's not. It's entirely possible to fritter your levels away on retarded classes like the field medic, infiltrator, or tough hero.

If you want to be a fighter, like, at all, you either want to be a gunslinger, a gangster, a shaman, a psychic agent, a shadow slayer, or a holy knight. Those are seriously your only option and in the case of the shaman and psychic agent they don't even get most of their mojo from hitting folks. Well, field officer has a lot of uses.

Also, the hp system is completely stupid. You still get a pile of hps like in D&D. However, there's a good chance you'll never get to use them; see, this game has massive damage saves like whoa. At low amounts of damage, too.

However, they can still be easy to make if you're the right kind of character. There are some primary fighting characters who will be like level 6-8 before they can start making these saves with any sort of reliability. Which sucks a ton, because practically any enemy in this game can force those saves on you.

But wait! You get a thing called action points. I don't think I need to talk about the stupidity of a system that lets powergamers excel even MORE. Instead of doing something same like giving you a flat amount every adventure, it lets you save up every action point since the history of ever. What the hell?

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I love d20 Modern and have run some successful campaigns using it.

That said, the system is pretty buggy in places and I do use some fairly extensive houserules.

Thank you, WotC Department of Extereme Nonexistance (AKA, the Playtesting department)

-Desdan