A Bard with no Bard levels

[fbmf]

In keeping with the theme of the last few threads, I'd like to put in a request.

A player of mine really likes the bard flavor, but the bard class, of course, makes me cry. I suggested Sorceror/Harper Mage/Lore Master (Spontaneous Casting & Bardic Knowledge) but she really wants some music-themed abilities.

Suggestions?

Game on,
fbmf

[Username17]

I think we're going to need more information. What does the player think that Bards do such that she thinks it is good? If she wants...

To be gay, and have a harp: I'm not kidding, some people just want to wear shiny pants and have a musical instrument. May I suggest being a Rogue, jacking your charisma up fairly high and burning one of your many class skills on Perform. You can be "tricky" and a passable Diplomancer while still retaining utility at levels 1 to 20. It's also really simply to play.

Cast Spells and stab people: Some people really like the idea of having spellcasting and fighting - as if Bards actually did that except at levels 2-6. In this case, you'll want to steer her to Cleric. With a charisma build, you'll be in deep with your diplomacy and you can select two domains that belong to a church comfortable with your sexuality (The Mind Domain, for instance, provides unnamed bonuses to your social checks). You'll also be good at turning, and you can take a divine feat that trades that out for being sexier in shiny pants if you want.

Be the Party Diplomancer: Some people really like the idea of having a silver tongue and magic that makes them even sexier. Some people are even under the impression that being a character who can sell salt to the Sahuagin is somehow better for "roleplaying" than being a character who actually has to find a deal that the Sahuagin would accept on its own merits. Regardless, if she wants to be the all around talky-guy, she wants to be a Wizard who specializes in Enchantment.

Humerous tricks:

If you take the Able Learner feat along with the Apprentice Feat, you lose nothing when you trade your apprentice feat out for Mentorship, and you basically just get to pocket some extra class skills and some bonuses to skills and/or saves. It's awesome.

A Cleric who takes 1 extra level of any good Will save class (even Incarnate) can get into Master of Shrouds at level 4. This allows you to use your Charisma to directly sing Shadows out of the walls to kill all your enemies, which is awesome. You aren't as good as a Cleric, but you get to fight with your Charisma and shadow puppets, which allows for a flavorful and powerful fighting style.

A Wizard who sets one feat on fire to get Aberration Banemagic can get into Keeper of the Cerulean Sign. It hands out dumbtastic class features, but it gives full spellcasting and 6 skill points per level. That's not trivial.

Anyone who has charm person, which is just about any spellcaster going the route of the shiny pants, wants a level of mindbender. It gives Telepathy out ot 100 feet, allowing your diplomancy to affect anything that can talk (without you needing to speak, for example, "Roper").

-Username17

[Daiba]

1144985840[/unixtime]]A Cleric who takes 1 extra level of any good Will save class (even Incarnate) can get into Master of Shrouds at level 4.

Doesn't Master of Shrouds require 10 ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft, as well as Will +5? Or am I missing something here?

[fbmf]

Thanks, Frank.

Game On,
fbmf

[SirWayne]

Daiba-- At least, as of Libris Mortis the skill requirements are just 5 ranks each (of those two and K: Religion).

Depending on how "Bard-like" she wants to be, a level of Marshal can be good [with the right group]. I suggest "Art of War" for a 60' aura that adds Cha to trips, disarms, and sunders, which can be nice for making the local spiked chain-wielder's success a foregone conclusion instead of just very likely. They also grant all proficiencies, so you can get into EK and Spellsword without having to take Fighter or something.

CW's War Chanter 3 gets the good ol' "Inspire Recklessness," which from 9th level on lets you cash in AC for attack rolls, meaning you pretty much instantly win on disarms or with Leaping/Spirited Charge Power Attack. This is assuming you've banned/nerfed enough spells that you're still playing a game at that point. *chuckles*

Marshal 2/Bard 2/Rogue 3/Warchanter X misses out on 3 (!) BAB but gets you Bardic Music and Inspire Courage, and like every Bard with both you'll take Snowflake Wardance for Cha to attacks and make Warchanter even bigger. (That's 2d6 SA, +Cha to damage while flanking via Master of Tactics (that applies to all allies)... not bad good for closet-ninja Ginsu (heh, I feel for Frank and the guys, my friends would never make it through Red Hand of Doom >_>) while still having a lot of Performing flavor.)

Anyway, those are just some ideas for getting a Perform-based schtick in there that's not a primary caster, because not everybody wants to play those. (Really, early-game you're better off with a caster, and late game... well, that's still true, but Sublime Chord is the best "singing class" published that I'm aware of, so that's what you'd do, hands down, and we all know that.)

Edit: That does bring up a question, though... while Bards as a standalone class are little more than a punchline, are Bard builds necessarily that bad? I mean, most of them (Dirgesinger, Seeker of the Song) are pretty terrible, but there's also classes that are actually good (like Sublime Chord) and some that have neat tricks, like Stormsinger's Thunderstrike (damage equal to a[n arbitrarily high] skill check that deafens the target for rounds equal to the damage dealt). And while I haven't been paying much attention, hasn't the Bard spell list gotten a few "consolation prize" decent boosts in some books?

[Username17]

First off, let me say that the only reason to take Marshal is to get Perfect Multiweapon Fighting or Constant Emmanation: Antimagic Field as a 2nd level character. The thing where if you already have Skill Focus: Diplomacy when you take level one of Marshall you get to select another bonus feat with no provided list or restrictions is hilarious. For what it's actually supposed to be for, the class stinks. The entire class is providing some other character Improved Trip - provided that you have an 18 in Charisma.

And while I haven't been paying much attention, hasn't the Bard spell list gotten a few "consolation prize" decent boosts in some books?

There's some impressive ones. For example: Love's Lament is a Will Save that causes victims to be nauseated for a d4 rounds in a 60 foot cone. It also causes a d6 of Wisdom damage, which is admittedly small, but unusual enough that it can be tweaked into dropping enemies. The thing is that people can't fight or escape from Webs while nauseated, and Undead aren't even immune to that condition. As a 3rd level spell, that's awesomely powerful as a battlefield control spell.

But it's 3rd level for Bards. You get to use it once per day at 7th level. That means that if you only have one encounter per day, you'll be throwing level appropriate effects with only slightly sub-par save DCs. If you have several encounters per day, you're just teh suxxor.

The concept behind the Bard is that they have a decent weapon list and a chain shirt, and when they run out of spells they can sit around and sing or run around and stab people. The problem is that after a few levels, that's really not enough to make it in close combat.

And your singing bullshit doesn't keep up either. And in 3.5 it's all based on your class level instead of your skill ranks. If you multiclass out, your Bard stuff stops scaling and you can't do anything level appropriate at all. 3.5 really nerfed the Bard hard. It used to be good for a dip or as a way to qualify for a PrC - now it's just 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. It requires concentration to maintain songs, so you can no longer sing and fight at the same time (and the bonuses you provide are rather quickly significantly smaller than the bonuses characters expect and need for losing an entire character from the combat). It requires a separate skill for every type of performance, so its no longer practical to sing and dance and play tbe lute at a level appropriate ability.

Sure, you can take Sublime Chord. You have to take Sublime Chord. But you get about half as many spell slots of the upper levels as a Sorcerer, and your lower level spell slots don't advance at all. You'll always be running out of spells before the Wizard does, so you'll only ever be decent if you are able to rest constantly.

---

The long and the short of it is that being a Bard is like taking Heroin. You're not as useful as the people around you. But pretty soon, you need to take more Heroin just to keep from being completely useless. And you gradually become less useful relatively speaking, and the penalties for cutting yourself off from the Horse become worse and worse. Eventually you'll be essentially useless anyway, but if you stop the flow of opiates, you might just die.

-Username17

[fbmf]

What the hell is Marshall?

Game On,
fbmf

[Fwib]

Marshall is a base class from MiniHB

Its gets a bunch of buffing auras like a Diablo 2 Paladin.

[Josh_Kablack]

The marshal is an alterante base class from the Minis HB. It's not actually good, but there are a couple passable low-level tricks with it if your party members co-operate.

[erik]

1145039369[/unixtime]]
It requires concentration to maintain songs, so you can no longer sing and fight at the same time (and the bonuses you provide are rather quickly significantly smaller than the bonuses characters expect and need for losing an entire character from the combat).

That's a pretty harsh stealth nerf.

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word.

So, only some bardic abilties require constant concentration, though all interfere with spells and at least a standard action to kick it off.

Fascinate and Inspire Competence require concentration.
Song of Freedom requires 1 minute of concentration to do its mojo.

Those are the only musics that say you need concentration (suggestion doesn't break fascinate's concentration), so you can totally inspire courage for +X morale to attack and damage and fight fight fight after your first standard action to kick it off.

If you aren't letting Bards fight while inspiring courage, that's just over-harsh.

I find Marshall an okay dip for some characters who just want to pimp out one thing, or planned on having a positive Cha mod anyway. A social rogue taking 1 Marshal for "Motivate Dex" to give the whole party a boost to initiative and other dex skills or a spirited charge type taking "Over the top." While legal, most folks won't tolerate crazy bonus feat-fu I think, so that aspect of the Marshal mostly just turns out meh.

(link to the Marshal class for fbmf)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

[Username17]

Or you could look at it the other way... where it says that some of the uses require concentration, Inspire Courage says that it lasts "as long as you keep singing", and unlike suggestion itdoesn't say that it doesn't require concentration. Furthermore, the explicit wording where the 3rd edition ability specifies that you can take other actions while singing has been removed.

I agree that it's bullshit. The whole class is bullshit, and the 3.5 wording was written by someone who doesn't even know how actions work (in that it doesn't much matter if using a suggestion breaks your concentration - it's a standard action that by definition isn't "maintain concentration on fascinate). But I am saying that the argument "It does not explicitly say the word "Concentration" in the description of the Inspire Courage ability" is not an argument I have ever won.

The implication is that it requires concentration, and any DM tempted to use the RAW for Bards is probably going to swing that way.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

If you're willing to take the ECL, hit, then Gloura from the Underdark book is almost worth playing. You walk in at 9th level casting as a 7th level bard, plus you get Unearthly Grace and DR 10/Cold Iron and notable bonuses to Dex and Cha. Aside from having crap BAB and only 7d6 HD, that's not bad. Unfortunately, you don't get Bardic music, so you end up having to take wizard PrCs to advance your bardic spellcasting. Unless you're willing to take Bard 1 to make it into Sublime Chord.

[erik]

1145051951[/unixtime]]But I am saying that the argument "It does not explicitly say the word "Concentration" in the description of the Inspire Courage ability" is not an argument I have ever won.

The implication is that it requires concentration, and any DM tempted to use the RAW for Bards is probably going to swing that way.

-Username17

So far I haven't had anyone try to pull that nonsense on me. I've been able to get by the fact that 3.5 changed so many minor things that many people miss them and still abide by 3.0, and then I can throw a little credibility on it by noting which music abilities explicitly note that they require concentration, and that inspire courage is not among them.

I've gotten my LG Bard to level 4 so far without any hitches- played with maybe a dozen DMs who let me use inspire courage and not have to waste my time concentrating. If I find DMs who wanna be pricks to bards, I'll just note them with a mental black flag and let that be the last time I play under them.

Heh, I know that those pricks are out there however. I did see on the giantitp.com boards where some people complained about the bard being able to fight while inspiring courage as being broken. I just wished there was a way for me to projectile vomit on people over the internet *sigh*. That has to be the worst DnD forum I've found, in that there are maybe one or two regular posters there with a clue, and thousands who are forever lost to reason (example: one person asks why monks are thought to suck, then follows 5+ pages of people saying how awesome monks are and that they may be broken even).

[User3]

just wished there was a way for me to projectile vomit on people over the internet *sigh*.

I think that there's a feat for that, but it has prereqs like "must have a breath weapon".

You're going to need to take enough Rogue levels to get that bonus feat.

[dbb]

There's a monster in Creature Collection that has a projectile vomit breath weapon.

--d.

[erik]

A Digester is close enough, I think.

[edit: I just noticed I was being quoted as Crissa, and felt that I should add that that's downright odd.]

[Lago_AM3P]

Heh, I know that those pricks are out there however. I did see on the giantitp.com boards where some people complained about the bard being able to fight while inspiring courage as being broken. I just wished there was a way for me to projectile vomit on people over the internet *sigh*. That has to be the worst DnD forum I've found, in that there are maybe one or two regular posters there with a clue, and thousands who are forever lost to reason (example: one person asks why monks are thought to suck, then follows 5+ pages of people saying how awesome monks are and that they may be broken even).

GURVE

Urge to kill rising.

[User3]

I just noticed I was being quoted as Crissa, and felt that I should add that that's downright odd.]

Apologies to all. I'm a bit sleepy and bleary-eyed.

I've been writing Necromancy material for about 8 hours, proving that I'm either very creative or a sick fvck.

Possibly both.

[Oberoni]

Egads, I'm checking out a Monks: How are they sucky? thread on Mr. Playground's boards right now.

I still get annoyed when one of the main arguments is "monks don't belong in the setting!"

It's...can you as a player not either wrap your head around their inclusion, OR just...you know...not have them in your campaign if it's such a problem?

Oy vey. It's an argument I've seen for years on various boards, but it still annoys me to no end.

[MrWaeseL]

About awesome bard spells: back in Lute & Loot there was a spell called Fanfare which stuns even on a failed save.

[fbmf]

[edit: I just noticed I was being quoted as Crissa, and felt that I should add that that's downright odd.]

[TGFBS]
Waved the mod wand for you.
[/TGFBS]

Also, thanks for the link to Marshall.

Game On,
fbmf

[Book]

The Spellsinger PrC in Races of Faerun is perfect to tack on to a Wizard baseline. It's a 5/5 spellcaster progression, 4 skills/level, and gives you full bard music uses using 3.0 rules. That latter benefit is awesome, because 3.5 bard PrCs that are useable by Wiz/Sorc's only give you a watered-down or special-use bard music allotments.

Not to mention, Spellsinger also has Bard BAB and a host of good-to-excellent class benefits. The best of which is the ability to spontaneously cast any Enchantment spell on your spell list - albeit, at a significantly reduced DC. The trick here is to use it to spontaneously cast non-attack Enchantment spells. Like Heroism for example. There aren't many, but there are a few. I'll have to look at Spell Compendium to see if new ones have come about.

The bad news? Besides your 2 craptastic feat prerequisites, you need to take a 3rd crappy one to avoid having to dip into Sorc or Bard. It's that feat in PGtF that lets you spontaneously cast 3 cantrips a day. This fulfills the 'spontaneous casting' pre-req.

Some may argue that the PrC is better suited to Sorc than Wiz. But Sorc's suck, and finagling the PrC on to Wiz is a bit challenging, but worth it with a little minmaxing.

[power_word_wedgie]

1144985840[/unixtime]]To be gay, and have a harp: I'm not kidding, some people just want to wear shiny pants and have a musical instrument. May I suggest being a Rogue, jacking your charisma up fairly high and burning one of your many class skills on Perform. You can be "tricky" and a passable Diplomancer while still retaining utility at levels 1 to 20. It's also really simply to play.

This would be the choice that I would take for my character. Usually you have enough skill points to take Perform: Tuba and still do your other roguish abilities. Besides, the high(er) charisma will help with the UMD skill. The only thing is the abilities in order: would you do Cha/Dex/Int, Int/Cha/Dex, or Int/Dex/Cha? I'm thinking I'd take the last selection and go that route myself.

[Username17]

I would personally go with Int/Cha/Dex. Dexterity is the single most overrated attribute for a Rogue, when it comes down to it - it doesn't make much of a difference. Charisma, otoh, is one of the few things that influences Leadership and UMD - which are two things that completely break the game in subtle ways.

But the real deal is that fundamentally DMs are simply more likely to be kind to Charisma skills if they know you invested into the attribute. On some level, they know it's a dump stat when it isn't raising Save DCs. The fact that you put your second highest stat in Charisma is probably only worth about +1 to your skil checks over putting your third best is (and coincidently is costing you only about a point of AC) - but psychologically it looms much larger and is going to end up getting you a more favorable place on that chart rather often. That increase in Charisma often comes with a hidden -5 to the DC (or more) - and is quite worthwhile for a diplomatically inclined rogue.

Whether you decide to blow ranks on Perform (Skin Flute) or not.

-Username17