FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1073631898[/unixtime]]Only this can be concluded: At least one of the premises is not true.
Which is important - P => R and ~Q => ~R are not premises. They are operators, yes, but not premises. Their Truth values are determined by the premises. Premises are restricted to things which can be assumed to be true - like P xor ~P.
That's funny. Frank, you don't even understand what you're talking about here. I've only had one class in the philosophy of logic, and I know this is complete crap.
Here's a simple logical syllogism:
1. All humans are mortal.
2. I am human.
Conc: I am mortal.
When you convert premise 1 into logical language, it becomes:
Human => mortal (read "human implies mortal")
Going into full logical symbolism:
1. H => M
2. H
Conc: M
If I remember right, that's the argument they taught us on the first day.
A premise is any statement that is assumed to be true that is used to make a deductive argument. If your only premises are "P" and "~Q", then you have no argument at all because there is no defined relationship (that is, premise) between P and Q.
And the silly part is that this logic doesn't prove that much. All it proves is that if you believe the premises are true, then the conclusion must also be true. If, for example, you knew that not all humans were mortal, then the above argument is is false even though it remains deductively valid. Logic is a method to preserve truth. It doesn't create it.
Frank seems to think that templates are special and you can use an OR for them, but you still must use an AND for hit dice limits, etc. I still don't see why templates are more special than hit dice limits.
No, that was you - not me. Like the whole "what if laws were written this badly!" rant of Oberoni's. It's just a pinata you keep bringing out - and I'm frankly sick of it. Note that Wildshape, for instance, actually does obviate the hit die limits of Polymorph. It also reinstates new ones of its own (which are similar to, but different from, those of Polymorph).
So yeah, Wildshape uses its own Hit Die limits and does not use Polymorph's Hit Die limits - it uses its own. Why is that surprising?
-Username17
Fair enough. That's what I get for not reading the whole ability.
Here's an amusing argument:
1. Elemental Wild Shape says: "At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) [...]."
2. There exist creatures in the set {Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water)} with templates, therefore I can ignore the "no template" restriction inherited from alter self for Elemental Wild Shape..
3. Plant Wild Shape says: "At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms."
4. There exist creatures in the set {Small, Medium, or Large plant creature} with templates, therefore I can ignore the "no template" restriction inherited from alter self for Plant Wild Shape.
5. Wild Shape says: "At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type."
6. There exist creatures in the set {Small or Medium creatures with the animal type} with templates, therefore I can ignore the "no template" restriction inherited from alter self for Wild Shape. [I don't where any templates that don't change type away from animal type are, but I know they exist. The Dire Template, for example, wherever that got published.]
7. Polymorph says: The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.
8. There exist creatures in the set {aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin size Fine or larger} with templates, therefore I can ignore the "no template" restriction inherited from alter self for polymorph.
If 1 & 2 are your logic, then the rest must also be true.
I don't see why Elemental Wild Shape isn't the intersection (logical AND) of the two sets
{Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water)}
and
{creatures without templates}
since the intersection set is non-trivial (not the empty set). Especially when this is how every other child ability of alter self works.