Question for Frank

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Psifon
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Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Where does it say that a Druid can use it's wildshape ability to turn into a templated creature?
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

It has to do with the fact that the inability to become a templated creature is a restriction of the basic Polymorph spell, and Druidic Elemental Wildshape grants additional forms in spite of the Polymorph restrictions.

So, for example: you can't use polymorph to turn into a Fire Elemental Tiger because it is a templated form and it is an elemental. Elemental Wildshape doesn't specify which restrictions it breaks - just that you can turn into a Large Elemental despite the normal rules. A Fire Elemental Tiger is a Large Elemental, so you are free to turn into one.

This is an example of why you shouldn't ever write rules with a complex inheritance structure unless you know what you are doing. As is, I can't tell whether this facet of the rules is intentional or not. And I don't think you'd get a consistent answer out of WotC either - we still don't even have an answer on whether you can wildshape into a poisonous snake and poison people or not.

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Psifon
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Thanks, thats what I thought.

I am engaged in an arguement with a poster who is saying that being able to turn into an elemental only means the MM elemental creature, not the elemental type. My arguement is that since elemental wildshape specifies that you can gain the spell-like abilities of the new form, and since no elementals HAVE spell like abilities, the passage in question MUST be referring to the elemental TYPE and not the elemental CREATURE. I feel sure that this holds water, but I wonder if you have any stronger arguements on this topic?

As for the poisoning. There is nothing in wildshape that specifically states that parts of you retain their form after they leave your body, so why is this an issue?
Tae_Kwon_Dan
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Here is what Elemental Wildshape says:

Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water)


It is kind of confusing, but I do believe it means that you can turn into any creature of the Elemental type as long as it has an (air, earth, fire, or water) subtype. So while that includes the ones listed in the original MM, you also get some of the wackier Elements from the other books.
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

It specifies that you transform into a "large elemental (air)".

The name of the specific creature is "air elemental, large". However, the type line is "large elemental (air)" - an exact match. The wildshape line is written with the exact word order of the type line, not the name line. Therefore it is presumably refering to the type line.

Not that it really matters, because if you slap the Half Water Elemental Template on creatures they actually end up being named "Water Elemental" just like the Water Elemental is. So regardless of whether you claim it's the name or the type line being referenced (and I find it more plauisble that it is referencing the type line) - you can still become more than just those dinky elementals you get when you cast Summon Elemental Swarm.

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Ok, now what about the arguement that Polymorph uses the inheritance clause from Alter Self, and alter self specifies that you can't use a template?
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Thoth_Amon »

I think the argument is that the elemental wildshape ability is the exception to the regular polymorph rules and as such is not governed by the Alter Self inheritance clause.

TA
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Thats too vague. It specifically says that you can't use templates, where is this dropped in the logic of the inheritance clause structure?

Just for the record I WANT to be able to use templates, so work with me here.
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Thoth_Amon »

And it specifically says you can't be an elemental either, but Druids can. The nature of exception logic is vague. Unless you are going to draw out a Venn Diagram and make your statements more explicit.

The argumant you become a large elemental (air) is the implicit exception that allows for the templates as it can be construed as a template.

I'm trying to work with you, but I can understand a DM nerfing this or saying it was not design intent. Fire elemental Genies granting party members wishes! Absurd.

TA
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

Yes, the "no templates" restriction is given equal weight with the "no elementals" restriction.

So the last given statement is "You can transform into a large elemental." This must have greater weigth than the statements which came before - as they included "you can't transform into an elemental."

If the statement "you can transform into a large elemental" has lesser weight than "you can't transform into an elemental", then you simply can't transform into an elemental at all. If it has greater weight - then you can transform into a large elemental which has a template as those two restrictions have equal weight and the premise is that the statement that allows this form is more powerful.

So either Elemental Wildshape doesn't work at all and won't actually allow you to transform into anything - or it overrides the previous restrictions and can allow you to become templatted forms. As written, either one is a perfectly valid interpretation.

The real fun one is Polymorph Any Object - which has no restrictions on creature forms at all (only restrictions on object forms, and a variable duration based on the creature chosen). That one is really crazy. For some reason you can't turn a block of soap into a block of adamantine, but you can transform the block of soap into a Chronotyrin which has the ability to spray blasts of admantine several times per day. Use a large enough block of chicken-fat soap and it's permanent.

Edit: you may need to resort to more powerful argument techniques:
http://www.victoly.com/~infernarl/tehwi ... [br]-Username17
Psifon
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Ok, I'm following you. Though I'm not sure I agree. "This argument is more powerfull" doesn't hold water when you consider that what wildshape is doing is allowing you access to a type.

Alter self lets you alter your form, but not your type and specifically says you can not adopt a template regaurdless.

Polymorph states you can alter your type, but does not specifically override the template restriction, so you can't do it.

Wildshape allows you to do the same thing as polymorph, but it only applies to the elemental type. Again it doesn't specifically override the template restriction, so you can't do it.

Shapechange allows you to assume the form of any type, but STILL doesn't specifically override the template restriction, so you can't do it.

Polymorph any object changes one object or creature into another, like polymorph and still doesn't explicitly allow templated creatures, although since it allows object to creature transformations, I suppose this is covered there.


Also, I don't see how wildshaping can stack with shapechange. Shapechange specifically states that you lose all your supernatural abilities when you change forms. Wildshape is a supernatural ability, so wouldn't you lose it? In effect your shapechanged abilities would "overwrite" your wildshape abilities, causing you to lose even the feats and extrordinary abilities of your wildshape form.

OK, now i am going to read the thread that you gave a link to...
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

"This argument is more powerfull" doesn't hold water when you consider that what wildshape is doing is allowing you access to a type.


That is, in fact, not what it is doing.

It is allowing you to transform into a creature which has that type.

That's not the same thing.

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

As for Shapechange/Wildshape - it doesn't matter if you lose your wildshape ability or not when you shapechange - the duration on the power has already been started and now it is an ongoing effect.

Similarly, when you use Tenser's Transformation you lose Spellcasting Ability, but the spells you have already cast (such as Tenser's Transformation) don't vanish when that happens. Otherwise, TT would shut itself off and have a duration of zero.

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

what's the difference?
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1072129388[/unixtime]]As for Shapechange/Wildshape - it doesn't matter if you lose your wildshape ability or not when you shapechange - the duration on the power has already been started and now it is an ongoing effect.

Similarly, when you use Tenser's Transformation you lose Spellcasting Ability, but the spells you have already cast (such as Tenser's Transformation) don't vanish when that happens. Otherwise, TT would shut itself off and have a duration of zero.

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I could just as easily posit that:

Spells are effects that have durations for as long as the magic lasts. Supernatural abilities are NOT spells, and they don't operate on the same principle. It is more like having the supernatural ability to hold a box over your head. The sronger you are (supernaturally) the longer you can hold the box over your head. Once you lose the supernatural ability, the box comes down. But Wildshape is not a spell, it is a supernatural ability. Once you stop having it, you lose it. Period. Nothing that you have associated with it continues.

Now the statement above is NOT supported by anything specific in the rules, but neither is your statement that the duration continues, like in a spell. In fact the rules are silent on this issue, which means it is a DM's call. So the stacking or not stacking of wildshape and shapechange is NOT RAW, it is a house rule, no matter HOW you play with it.
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

Psifon at [unixtime wrote:1072129531[/unixtime]]what's the difference?


The difference is that if I say "but allows access to the elemental type" then I am only overriding the type restriction.

However, if I say "but allows you to become a creature which has the elemental type" then I am overriding any and all restrictions that would keep you from becoming any particular creature which has the elemental type.

That's the difference, and it's all the difference.

So if it said "but allows access to the elemental type" I couldn't become a Fire Elemental Tiger, because the question would be "is there any other reason I can't become a Fire Elemental Tiger". However, with the actual wording the question becomes "Is a Fire Elemental Tiger an Elemental - Yes or No?" Since the answer is yes, then you can turn into one.

Note that similar wording is in place on Polymorph Any Object. It actually doesn't have any restrictions on creatures (look at how the examples gleefully ignore the hit die restrictions and size restrictions, and type restrictions, for example).

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1072129984[/unixtime]]


However, if I say "but allows you to become a creature which has the elemental type" then I am overriding any and all restrictions that would keep you from becoming any particular creature which has the elemental type.

That's the difference, and it's all the difference.



Ok, that's clear.

However, the PHB doesn't say EITHER of these things. It says that you can turn into an elemental, and it implies that it is referring to a type rather than explicitly stating anythign. So it is HUGELY open to DM interpretation as well.
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

I wonder why they didn't simply specify the word "type" in their descrition of elemental wildshape. It would have cleared things up enormously (using reasonable college level writing skills that is).
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

Supernatural Abilities are a magical power that "produce an effect" they are not subject to dispelling, disruption, or spell resistance.

Wildshape, for example, is an ability generates an "effect" which "lasts 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back."

It's not a continuous effect, it is a duration effect, and "until she loses the ability" isn't even on that check list.

Similarly, when a Druid uses Exalted Wildshape to turn into a Celestial Tiger and uses her Smite Evil ability - the unhappy villain is not healed of the damage when the Druid reverts back to human form.

Attempting to apply different duration rules to Supernatural Abilities than are held by absolutely all other effects in the entire game causes the entire game to come crashing down. It's like arguing that your longsword can call Red Dragons with every swing because the rules are silent on the issue of whether or not they do that.

There are no addiitonal duration rules for Supernatural Abilities to have that are distinct from the duration rules for the rest of the game - so you cannot argue that Supernatural Abilities are possessed of these alternate duration rules. They don't exist for the Supernatural Abilties to have.

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

understood.
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

However, the PHB doesn't say EITHER of these things.


Yes. It says you can turn into a "large elemental" - which is far more generous.

A Half-Water Elemental Pit Fiend is large sized, and named "Elemental", and has the subtype "(water)" - so the answer to whether it is a "large elemental (water)" is, perhaps unfortunately, yes. So you can transform into it.

Now, if they'd said "size and type" in there with some good syntax and appropriate context - it would prevent that. But you could still turn into a Fire Elemental Basilisk (which, BTW, looks wicked cool). If they had said "name" then you couldn't transform into a Fire Elemental Basilisk, or much of anything since almost nothing is actually named "small", "medium", or "large". If they had simply stated "allows access to the elemental type, provided that the creature is small, medium, or large" then it would disallow all templates still but allow the character to become an Invisible Stalker.

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Josh_Kablack »

At least in the 3.0/MotW rules there was an argument based on capitalization of keywords that Frank's interpretation of Elelmental Wildshape was incorrect. (See Harzatkeraze(sp?)'s Shifter FAQ on the WotC Boards for details)

Unfortunately, this particular argument fails miserably because at the time the capitalization of keywords in Elemental Wildshape matched neither the capitalization used for creature types and subtypes nor the capitalization used for specific creatures in 3.0. (I'm too tired and lazy to tjeck if they changed the capitalization in the 3.5 Druid or MM right now)

"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Psifon
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Well that pretty much wraps it up then, Thanks Frank!
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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Username17 »

Heh. In 3.5, the words "Small", "Medium", and "Large" are all capitalized - the words "elemental", "air", "earth", "fire", and "water" are not.

The "ELEMENTAL" heading is all caps. The name "Air Elemental, Small" has each word capitalized, as does the type line "Small Elemental (Air, Extraplanar)."

Very hard, neigh, actually impossible to make a capitalization argument. Unless you wanted to say that the word "Small" being capitalized indicated that it was referencing the specific game term "Small" - which refers to size category.

The Size Category is listed in the same line as the Type. You can make of that what you will.

Oh, and by the way - all of the Elementals have the "Extraplanar" subtype - which isn't listed in the Wildshape description. So you can't make a valid argument that creatures with addiitonal words in there that aren't on the list are out - because that would again eliminate your ability to turn into anything.

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Re: Question for Frank

Post by Psifon »

Ok, I have a new question.

I am designing an encounter (well 5 actually, but this is the big one) where the party will be fighting a single Monk/kensai who is Polymorphed into another creature (by means of a ring of spell storing provided by the monistary).

He doesn't need to be a kensai, but he does need to be a monk. I figure the VOP part works well with Polymorph, since he has no equipement to lose. What would you suggest?
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