The Gaming Den

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1076518328[/unixtime]]Exactly. Once you are casting spells on a specific character you are having an encounter - regardless of the fact that you may be too far away for them to fight back effectively. If you fly in to an area guarded by Ankhegs and mow them down with archery - that's still an encounter despite the fact that the manner you entered it precluded them from fighting back.

If you use divination magics to find out when the Minotaur will sleep, then sneak in and cut his throat - that's also an encounter.

Casting Demand on someone who is standing at the brink of a volcanic caldera to jump in is an encounter and you do get experience for it. Casting Gate to force someone to hand roll taquitos is also an encounter, or rather, it's the beginning of one.

If the manner of you entering combat makes your opponent worthless that does not make people get zero xp for it. You don't even get less, it's just good tactics.

-Username17

I'll concede that point for situations where the creature you gate in is a creature that you must face in order to complete some task necessary to the adventure. But this whole conversation is based on TKD's idea that you could pull this trick with a really high-HD creature that has nothing to do with the adventure just to get cheap XP. He didn't explicitly state it here but that's what he's been saying in other places. I'm arguing that this use of the spell in those circumstances wouldn't earn XP. AFAICT, based on my reading of the (admittedly 3.0) DMG, it's only an encounter if the DM has decided that it's part of the adventure.

I agree that Gate is well and truly broken, since it allows any party with a 17th-level wizard or 18th-level sorcerer to defeat almost any non-divine being in the universe, making any BBEG short of the god of ultimate evil no challenge whatsoever. But it doesn't allow you to get free XP just for the heck of it.

I'm arguing that this use of the spell in those circumstances wouldn't earn XP. AFAICT, based on my reading of the (admittedly 3.0) DMG, it's only an encounter if the DM has decided that it's part of the adventure.

I see your point, but the DM could just rule against any of the things on this thread working, and in fact will probably have to in order for his game not to implode.

-Jack

Jack, I hate to single you out, but I think I won the over\under on you for saying by the 26th post somebody would invoke the Oberoni Fallacy on this thread.

3.0 Mind Flayers or anything else that could use both Astral Projectonion and Planeshift (either 3.0 or 3.5) are probably broken. Depending on interpretation, those spells used in conjuction probably duplicate all of your equipment permanently although the duplicate equipment is subject to dispelling.

All of the following from the 3.0 PsiHB is also broken:

Mindfeeder Weapons (infinite power points)

Fission (infinite cohorts, among other things)

Metaconcert (still an infinite loop even after the errata made it so much harder)

Psychic Chirurgery + Master Dorje - only broken in Epic games where the cash available exceeds that recommended for 32nd level characters. But in such games, all psychics or all spellcasters or just everybody (depending on interpretation of psi/magic transparency) gets to know all Psionic powers and have every Incarnate-able effect operating on the whole party for free.

Hey, new to this part of the BBRing, though I've been lurking a while now. I was just wondering, why are vampires broken? Because of domination at will?

Hello, Mr. Waesel. You may want to check in at the Welcome thread in MPSIMS. Thanks for posting.

Game On,
fbmf

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1077634713[/unixtime]]Hey, new to this part of the BBRing, though I've been lurking a while now. I was just wondering, why are vampires broken? Because of domination at will?

Warning: This is a 3.0 answer. I don't know a lot about 3.5!

The Monster Manual specifically says killing a vampire requires stabbing it in the heart with a pointy wooden stick, but you can't call a shot in D&D, and even if you could, said vampire can just go gaseous on you and not have a heart right when you've got the stake and mallet ready. Ain't that a bitch.

But we will ignore those two for the moment. I hope you brought your checkbook, cause you are going to have to hire a giant or a dragon to send the stake in due to the vampires DR. To be fair, I guess you could get a masterwork ( ) stake and have it enchanted.

-Jack

In 3.5 it's even worse. I mean, in 3rd edition you could cast Greater Magic Weapon on a Stake and be good to go.

The 3.5 Vampire has the following abilities:

1> Immune to Critical Hits. Thus, it can't be coup de graced, even if helpless.

2> DR 10/Magic and Silver. So unless your wooden weapon does 11 points without recourse to criticals, sneak attacks, poison, etc., it can't even enter the vampire.

3> Never Sleeps. It's undead, it does not need to sleep.

4> Ability to assume Gasseous Form at will. Has no organs when gasseous.

5> Upon being reduced to zero hit points, it becomes immune to damage, and then goes and tags its coffin. Once it succeeds u doing so it becomes helpless, but still gasseous and immune to damage, for one hour.

6> Alternate form at will.

In order to kill it, you need to:

1> Stake it in the heart. This is not possible, because there are no called shots, the closest thing to called shots is useless because the vampire is immune to criticals, and even if it wasn't, literally the only time in their entire life when they are helpless, they are also gasseous and don't have a heart to stake. That, and since stakes are not silver they generally can't hurt a vampire anyway.

2> Expose it to Sunlight - since vampires can simply turn into a wolf or bat and cash in their undead type - this doesn't even work. They just take an action to become a wolf and it's no longer a problem

3> Immerse it in water for three rounds. They can turn into gas at will, which floats to the surface of water. Losing a third of their hit points is meaningless, so dropping them in the lake simply causes them to burst out as a bubble the next round.

4> Beat them up (they have DR/Silver, so good luck with that), then tracking them down to their coffin, then destoying their coffin, then waiting an hour for them to reform, then killing them again. Since the coffin only needs to be accessible by gasseous individuals - there's no reason to believe you can do this.

5> Kill them with Undeath to Death or a massive Turning Ckeck. This would actually work. Hope you have the sun domain.

---

Vampires are broken because unless you have some very specific stuff, you can't win. And most of that specific stuff is chosen on character creation.

-Username17

Disintegrate maybe?

I did not think they remained gaseous after returning to their coffin when dropped below 0 HP.

TA

I guess you could send them on an all-expenses paid trip to the elemental plane of water or the positive energy plane with plane shift (mind you, this is way out of your means).

That's a pretty horrible fate.

Disintegrate maybe?

Not in 3.5 you don't. In 3.5, a failed save vs. Disintegrate is still a hit point effect so it can't kill a Vampire.

In 3rd edition, that works fine.

Note that Vampires have craptacular Fort Saves because they are undead, so Disntegrate is very likely to cause a failed save. In the 3.5 rules, however, that just forces them back to their lair.

I did not think they remained gaseous after returning to their coffin when dropped below 0 HP.

They assume gasseous form, then arrive, and become helpless. Then they reform 1 hour later. They are actually incapable of not being gasseous while resting in their coffin - which as written is something they only have to do for 1 round.

-Username17

I only thought it was broken because of their dominate person at will, and failing a save on 1, no matter what. That's much worse.

I think I better fix that then, because there's a Vampire in the current adventure, and I'd like it to, you know, be possible to win. I don't have qualms about making it hard, but not impossible.

(Hammering out some house rules)

Thanks for the advice, Frank.

I know I am asking for trouble, but when they fail their save and drop to 0 HP or less, doesn't

SRD wrote:Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Take effect prior to turning into gaseous form and returning to the coffin?

Bzammo!

TA

Take effect prior to turning into gaseous form and returning to the coffin?

Yes it does - which is why it is totally useless in this instance. The vampire is reduced to dust, and then a second effect triggers that turns it into a mobile cloud of gas.

In 3rd edition, it turns into a pile of dust and doesn't trigger the escape hatch - so it just stays that way.

-Username17

Thoth_Amon at [unixtime wrote:1077670936[/unixtime]]I know I am asking for trouble, but when they fail their save and drop to 0 HP or less, doesn't

SRD wrote:Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust.

Take effect prior to turning into gaseous form and returning to the coffin?

Bzammo!

TA

That runs into both the undead type and vampire specific 0 hit point exception routines.

Since the vampire specific 0 hit point exception routine overrides the more general undead type routine, I must assume that it also overrides other more general exception routines.

On the bright side, 3.5 vampires will never have more than 6,000 temporary hit points stacked, which is a major nerf from the 144,000 they could have in 3.0.

So trace dust doesn't beget trace gaseous form?

I still sit in the "Bzammo" camp, even if I am houseruling it.



TA

Yeah, I see no reason why they won't both happen. It's nonsensical to think the undead type 0 --> destroy happens, but that's not the case with any other kind of effect (turn, disintegrate, etc.).

I don't see why vampires lose vulnerabilities with alternate form. They're special qualities (certainly not attacks of any kind) so Alternate Form (3.5 MM) preserves them. Indeed, a vampire in wolf form is still Undead type.

Why you can't stake or submerge a helpless vampire? Why does the incapacitated vampire regain 1 hit point if you destroy the coffin before 1 hour is up?

"Coffin needs only be accessible by gaseous individuals." That's true. But how can you get a coffin where only gas can go? [Note: Yes, magic does solve both these problems.]

Indeed, a vampire in wolf form is still Undead type.

:shudder: they get a Con Score and keep their intelligence. Technically they are Magical Beasts with the augmented Undead subtype and Augmented Animal subtype. I frickin hate 3.5 polymorph.

Why you can't stake or submerge a helpless vampire?

You theoretically could submerge them - except that they are almost universally gasseous while helpless and float. A trip to the elemental plane of water would do it - there's no surface for them to get to.

Since vampires are immune to critical hits, you can't ever stake them, regardless of whether they are helpless or not. The fact that they are also usually gasseous at that point - and don't have any heart to stake - is beside the point.

Why does the incapacitated vampire regain 1 hit point if you destroy the coffin before 1 hour is up?

They reform 1 hour after reaching the coffin if they reach the coffin within 2 hours of hitting zero hit points. They don't have to be in the coffin at all during that period.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1077875369[/unixtime]]

Why does the incapacitated vampire regain 1 hit point if you destroy the coffin before 1 hour is up?

They reform 1 hour after reaching the coffin if they reach the coffin within 2 hours of hitting zero hit points. They don't have to be in the coffin at all during that period.

It doesn't say they do, and it doesn't say they don't. There is not sufficient evidence to say one way or the other, and I find the language ambiguous enough to allow the interpretation that they must be at rest within the coffin to gain that hit point.

Can you sit on the coffin and repeatedly cast wind wall to keep them out for 2 hours?



TA