Eldritch Knight: Counterpart to the Arcane Trickster and Mys

[Lago_AM3P]

Unlike the other two mixed PrCs, I think that the Eldritch Knight PrC (especially when combined with something silly like the Sacred Exorcist or a single level of Spellsword and whatnot) has some real potential.

I'm basing this off of the fact that there are some really, really potent spells in a wizard libram that are unfortunately personal range. Further, they're also balanced on the fact that a wizard will never ever want to engage in melee combat by the time they reach these spells due to the deterioration of BAB, saves, hp, and AC.

For example. The shapechange + persistant alter self combo. That's some real cheese potential there. Shapechange (with a rod of extension) into an iron golem then alter self back to your original form while pocketing the stats and superior type (and totally sweet magic immunity) while being able to maintain a human guise.

Or magic jar. Keep your gem in a bag of holding and you can fill up the extra life bin.

Then there's all the fun of hide life, which is a stupid pet trick when used for primary spellcasters in a team-based game but rockin' socks awesome when used for a guy swinging a sword.

Then you can chain contingency yourself a greater heroism, a starmantle, and that damn electrical shield spell from Book of Exalted Deeds. Combined with an appropriate shapechange (and persistent fire shield) and a statue spell, you could be walking into combat often ignoring the first 23 points of damage and dealing 2d6+30 damage to creatures that strike you.

Girallion's blessing combined with arm fuse, a cheesy spell that can be made PERMANENT on you, can provide like a phat +16 to strength even when shapechanged.

I don't know. There seems to be some real untapped potential here that has only previously been limited by, as mentioned, arcane spellcaster's lack of attack, damage, hp, saves, and AC. Through various means, most of them due to 3.5E (providing us with stupid things like SS, which was supposed to be the first sourcebook with 3.5E in mind, +1 BAB arcane spellcaster PrCs, arcane strike feat, etc.), these concerns have been bypassed and I feel just by virtue of the broken system of stacking the wizard can beat the complete utter spoon off of the ballyhooed divine favor + divine power + righteous might cleric.

What do you think?

[User3]

Big whoop.

The EK and the AT (Rogue1/wiz5/GT1) both are 2 levels (or more) behind the straight wizard/sorceror. The Theurge is 3 levels behind unless you fiddle around with Nar Demonbinder hijinx.

Saying the EK is far away from the AT is ignoring the facts. Also, the EK has no class abilities and zippo in skills. An early level organically grown EK suffers mightily in those early, awkward hybrid levels.

The EK, like the AT, roxxors at high levels. Everything below that blows chunks. Your combos are indeed cool and effective, but I'd rather get them 2 levels earlier and use them in more creative ways, even without the higher BAB.

[Lago_AM3P]

Except that the EK, unlike the Arcane Trickster, benefits from several things:

One is having a damage scheme completely independent of two different classes. Like... arcane strike. Which is really good if you're going the unarmed strike + polymorph scheme, but blows for two-weapon fighting (which favors the rogue).

If you were a wizard, you didn't care about skills in the first place because you have a high intelligence and the wizard skill list wasn't all THAT great to begin with. It's not like a rogue who has access to probably the best aggregate skill list EVER published by WotC (only the Spymaster has even attempted to try to match the rogue, and the PrC otherwise sucks completely).

The other is having a way better BAB. Like a Wizard/Fighter/Eldritch Knight/Spellsword/Sacred Exorcist walking away with a BAB of +16 and having 9th level spells, compared to an arcane trickster having one of +11 or LESS.


Further, the biggest problem with just going wizard is while you have the combos, you're lacking in almost every department vital for a character to actually make enough of a difference in melee combat. Most visibly is the issue of attack and saves. Well, the introduction of the arcane strike feat and full BAB feats and just taking levels in 5 classes with stacking abilities takes care of that.

I dissed on the AT because almost all of the cool combos were transferred by the party spellcaster at no cost while being behind in other areas. The EK has only two tasks: To survive and crush foes. And I think that there's some potential there.

[User3]

I can't see how one of these things makes a strong fighter.

Arcane Strike is cool, but you've got to keep your spellcasting stat way up in order to use this, which kicks you in balls as a fighter. This is irrelevant if you're polymorphing, but when you're polymorphing into something with 9 natural attacks, who the hell needs high BAB?

You have no will save, and no wisdom. You're just asking for it.

Your hps suck a little less than a wizards, but this is like turning your vacuum from high to medium: it still sucks.

You have the problem of needing time to get all your spells on you in the first place. This is helped by retardedly cheap stuff like persistent spell, but only when you're very high level. Quicken rods help with this but cost you an assload of money that could be spent making you kick ass in the first place, and seriously, are there really any arcane spells that help you do damage? Maybe in SS (stuff like Garillion's Blessing/Fuse Arms makes me want to cry), but other than that?

You are so vulnerable to dispel magic that it's a joke. If I'm the enemy wizard and I see some douche bag running around glowing 9 different colors you can bet I'm dispelling his rainbow ass. Of course, when there's no one to dispel you then I guess you're pretty good, but I can't stand having such a huge vulnerability to worry about.

All you really seem to be getting out of the class is BAB, and a wizard (and especially a sorc) can grab a wand of divine power and go to town in 3.5. There's always limited wish or rings of spell storing, too.

I just don't see a point. I'd rather just be a wizard with three swashbuckler levels and polymorph into a Rukanyr or something. While still being vulnerable to dispel magic, it only takes one spell to get back into ass-kicking form, and you'd be a hell of a lot better than some dork with a bastard sword and a bunch of arcane buffs (which all seem to be defensive) anyway.

All that being said, most of this is speculation, and if you can prove to me concretely that EK's can really compete then so be it.

Lastly, a couple things:

if you're going the unarmed strike + polymorph scheme

What's this and how does it work (if you don't mind explaining)?

The shapechange + persistant alter self combo.

Because Alter Self can't change your type, I think this would have to be Shapechange and Polymorph in 3.5, just so you know.

Or magic jar. Keep your gem in a bag of holding and you can fill up the extra life bin.

I can't see how this would work effectively. Well, unless you had an endless supply of buff, lobotomized guys you carry around. Could you explain?

[Lago_AM3P]

Arcane Strike is cool, but you've got to keep your spellcasting stat way up in order to use this, which kicks you in balls as a fighter. This is irrelevant if you're polymorphing, but when you're polymorphing into something with 9 natural attacks, who the hell needs high BAB?

Everyone needs high BAB. BAB is one of the very few things that transfer completely when you're on some form-changing scheme and it's one of the main reasons why ECL +0 characters geared for combat kick the complete crap out of monstrous ones.

If you need that sweet BAB=level BAB, the only real recourse for an arcane spellcaster short of contemplative cheese (and I have never ever played with a DM that would let me get away with it) is tenser's transformation, which sucks, or levels in PrCs.

You have no will save, and no wisdom. You're just asking for it.

A Fighter 1 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 8 Sacred Exorcist 4 has an exciting base will save of... +13.

Your hps suck a little less than a wizards, but this is like turning your vacuum from high to medium: it still sucks.

Between form-changing and all of the ways to gain temporary hp (like blowing a wad of spell slots on vampiric touch on mooks, which according to the FAQ friggin' stack), this shouldn't be a concern.

You have the problem of needing time to get all your spells on you in the first place. This is helped by retardedly cheap stuff like persistent spell, but only when you're very high level. Quicken rods help with this but cost you an assload of money that could be spent making you kick ass in the first place, and seriously, are there really any arcane spells that help you do damage? Maybe in SS (stuff like Garillion's Blessing/Fuse Arms makes me want to cry), but other than that?

I'm not arguing that.

But real ultimate power is real ultimate power, no matter who you are.

If you need MORE power than what I already told you, I can provide, but whatever. I thought that the combos were already show-stopping.

You are so vulnerable to dispel magic that it's a joke. If I'm the enemy wizard and I see some douche bag running around glowing 9 different colors you can bet I'm dispelling his rainbow ass. Of course, when there's no one to dispel you then I guess you're pretty good, but I can't stand having such a huge vulnerability to worry about.

What you want is:

Ring of Dispelling. Slap a greater dispel magic in them. They're stupid cheap, too. Cleric archers have been doing this since the beginning of time, and it can work for you, too.

All you really seem to be getting out of the class is BAB, and a wizard (and especially a sorc) can grab a wand of divine power and go to town in 3.5. There's always limited wish or rings of spell storing, too.

Uh, what?

Wands are stupid expensive, really iffy to use without skill mastery or a wad of skill points, and more importantly take up vital actions in combat to prepare. Limited Wish and Rings of Spell Storing have the same problem.

The whole idea of a buffer (which is why cleric archers MUST have persistent spell or failing that quicken spell) is to spend as little time as possible to get everything up. That's why I had the contingency examples and used spells that lasted for hours.

I just don't see a point. I'd rather just be a wizard with three swashbuckler levels and polymorph into a Rukanyr or something. While still being vulnerable to dispel magic, it only takes one spell to get back into ass-kicking form, and you'd be a hell of a lot better than some dork with a bastard sword and a bunch of arcane buffs (which all seem to be defensive) anyway.

What? What the hell do the swashbuckler levels do for you?

You gain: two extra points of BAB (giving you a piss-poor BAB of +11 at character level 20) and the ability to add anywhere from +8 to +12 extra points of damage per attack with this silly BAB and not really having the basics of what you need to do to kill things.

Specifically: Attack, AC, hp, and saves. Saves and attack are the big thing.

What's this and how does it work (if you don't mind explaining)?

Unarmed strikes exist in whatever form you're using; if you want to do something like shapechange into a golem (depending on your DM) you might not be able to use weapons. So you want to smash them with unarmed strikes, which are usuable in virtually every corporeal form.

Plus, it's a way to use two-weapon fighting with arcane strike. So it rules.

Because Alter Self can't change your type, I think this would have to be Shapechange and Polymorph in 3.5, just so you know.

You don't care, though. The persistent alter self, by way of the order of operation of spells changes you back into a form suitable for dungeoning. I.E. wearing equipment, being able to talk, having two hands, etc.

The original stats clause is up in the air, but either interpretation (using your most recent stats or whether it grandfathers stats from a previous shapechange) is situationally beneficial--it just determines whether your previous form will be a beholder or a golem or some shit.

I can't see how this would work effectively. Well, unless you had an endless supply of buff, lobotomized guys you carry around. Could you explain?

You already have the manpower, since you're a high level wizard. At worst, you can throw down with a polymorph any object and enslave giants for free. If control is an issue, you can always get people friendly towards you.

The trick works like this. Get a bag of holding. Acquire some way to live without breathing (optional). Put your crystal in the bag of holding. Possess the creature. Then put your body in the bag. Then place the bag in an unaccessable area on the goon's body. Keep the bag open a little if your DM is a horse's ass.

When the goon dies, your soul immediately travels towards your body in the bag, and you burst free with hp and personal spell effects and everything. It's effectively a one-up mushroom.

[User3]

The EK has only two tasks: To survive and crush foes. And I think that there's some potential there.

And sadly, that doesn't mesh with the team concept of D&D. EK's are selfish primary spellcasters. All their spells are about self-buff or sacrificing to Arcane Strike. If the EK is the party's primary arcane spellcasting option, your party will suck big-time. There are going to be times you NEED spells like Magic Jar, Charm Monster, Scry, etc. And I don't think I've ever seen a top-tier EK build carry these spells. Or be able to use them effectively.

The EK is a nice cohort or 5th party member who isn't needed for the "core-4" synergy dynamic. And to be honest with you, I'd rather have my tank/frontliner in the party be a Half-Ogre/Half-Giant (the latter a new race on the WotC web site) monkey-gripping a Huge Fullblade (with Heavy properties - Gold - from FRCS/MoF). That's an insane, stupid amount of damage per round on par with Arcane Striking. And I can do that in an anti-magic field. Or against hardcore dispellers. And my HD are good (unlike the crap that the EK is). And this and that and this and that!

[Lago_AM3P]

And sadly, that doesn't mesh with the team concept of D&D. EK's are selfish primary spellcasters. All their spells are about self-buff or sacrificing to Arcane Strike. If the EK is the party's primary arcane spellcasting option, your party will suck big-time. There are going to be times you NEED spells like Magic Jar, Charm Monster, Scry, etc. And I don't think I've ever seen a top-tier EK build carry these spells. Or be able to use them effectively.

Well, now you've seen one do stuff besides waste his time with silly crap like fireballs and meteor swarms.

The whole idea behind this guy was not to form a replacement for a wizard, but to form a replacement for a FIGHTER due to having access to a suite of buffs and feats that a fighter-type can't get even through massive multiclassing.

P.S. Are you still mad over that Arcane Trickster thing?

[Josh_Kablack]

Seriously, I'm looking real hard at having Enalias go from Wiz 5 to Fig 1 to EK.

Enalis is a "who needs Still Spell?" elf diviner in a mithral chain shirt whose spells are mostly noncombat utility spells (like locate object and tongues), no somatic component spells (true strike, suggestion) or long duration buffs which can be cast before the armor is put on.

Since most of what Enalias does in combat is shoot people with his bow, the increase in BAB, and the ability to pick up Point Blank and Precise Shot as bonus feats are looking really really tempting. The additional few HP are also sorely needed.

But having to wait 5 more levels instead of 3 until Greater Magic Weapon becomes worth it and having either pay cash or wait 3 more levels for Dispel Magic and Flame Arrow just keeps looking like just slightly too large a price to pay. One caster level would be tolerable. Two are just slightly too much for me. And there are three other wizards in the party, so it's not like I'd be hosing the party out of needed spells by waiting a few levels for them.

And bear in mind this is a game using only the 3.5 DMG prestige classes, so my options are basically Core Class levels forever, Eldritch Knight at 7th level or Loremaster at around 9-10th level. And for a character that's really well suited to the EK, it's just not quite worth it with only those options.

[Username17]

What can you do as an Eldritch Knight that you can't do better as a straight Wizard with a Ring of Spell Storing?

Seriously.

The Eldritch Knight at the top of his game is still missing 3 BAB out of his mandatory Wizard Levels. So at 16th level you have a BAB of +13, with two bonus feats.

A non-prestiged Cleric at 16th level has 2 bonus feats from her domains and a BAB of +12. Heavy Armor proficiency with the ability to actually cast spells in it, 8th level spells, turn undead, 22 extra hit points, and more spells per day than the Eldritch Knight will get in two levels. And all this comes with a higher caster level so your GMW is +1 point larger, and that's not chump change.

The Eldritch Knight is not as good as a "Cleric". Perhaps you've heard of them.

As for abusive spell combos - if you can find a sucker DM who will let you play with Hide Life it doesn't actually matter whether you have sword proficiency or not - just wade in and start whacking on people. Be a man and take your -4 non-proficiency penalty for not actually knowing how to use a Duom. You can't be killed, so it doesn't actually matter how good your damage output is. Short of that, there's nothing a Wizard can do that a Cleric two levels higher can't do just as well.

Cleric Fighters are a time tested piece of cheese and fundamentally work better than Eldritch Knights can because they already get most of the Eldritch Knight's "abilities" for free at first level.

And to be honest with you, I'd rather have my tank/frontliner in the party be a Half-Ogre/Half-Giant (the latter a new race on the WotC web site) monkey-gripping a Huge Fullblade (with Heavy properties - Gold - from FRCS/MoF). That's an insane, stupid amount of damage per round on par with Arcane Striking.

You haven't done the math on that, have you?

Such a character does less damage than an Orcish Rogue/Barbarian with a spiked chain. By a huge amount, actually. Remember, being a Half-Ogre gives you +6 strength and a -1 to-hit penalty for being large. At the cost of a level. But an Orc gives you +4 strength and no to-hit penalty in exchange for not loosing a level. So the melee to-hit bonus is the same as the Orc before the Orc takes his extra level. Being a Half-Ogre is like multiclassing into a +0 BAB class that gives the class advantage of +1 melee damage and the ability to use weapons one size larger. That's a lot like the first level of Rogue, except that it costs money and doesn't come with save bonuses or skills.

If your team is trying to min/max with the Half-Ogre, it's already getting off to a bad start.

And Arcane Strike blows. Really, it really really blows. Even at 20th level when you can get 4 attacks and sac out a 9th level spell to power it - it still blows. You do more extra damage by taking the higher caster level and spending those spell slots on putting more energy bursts on your weapon. The only spell slot which is actually worth more damage as an Arcane Strike than it is as being cast as a pre-combat buff is a 1st level slot - and a feat to do an extra d4 damage is seriously nothing to write home about.

I'm seeing a lot of bad min/maxxing here. These are the facts that you need to keep in mind:

1> A Cleric's Spell List is only slightly worse than the Wizard's Spell List. If you are giving up significant caster levels - the Cleric's spell list is better than yours.

2> If you embrace REAL ULTIMATE POWER as a Wizard (Simulacrum Loops, Shapechange Fiascos, Limted Wishing for Awakenings, Magic Jar Gambits, or whatever), then your BAB does not matter. The only relevent attribute of a gamebreaker wizard is their Caster Level. And giving up Caster Level for any other benefit at all makes such a character less broken.

Remember, a Hide Life Melee combatant will win evry fight whether he has a BAB of +4 or a BAB of +24 - it'll just take him longer. But it will take him longer in terms of rounds of combat - a character who is two caster levels behind the curve takes longer in terms of actual game sessions.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

But Frank. Think of the investment!

Seriously. The cleric's piece of cheese comes down to two-or-three spells. Namely, divine favor, divine power, and righteous might. If you believe in domain spells, this can be more, but this is basically it.

People have been complaining bitterly that three spells beats the everliving spoon off of the pants of a core fighter, or any core fighter-type, so I'm guessing that they're not going to make any more serious clerical buffs in the future.

But wizards? They're making up new stupid crap for wizards all of the time. Like this:

A non-prestiged Cleric at 16th level has 2 bonus feats from her domains and a BAB of +12. Heavy Armor proficiency with the ability to actually cast spells in it, 8th level spells, turn undead, 22 extra hit points, and more spells per day than the Eldritch Knight will get in two levels. And all this comes with a higher caster level so your GMW is +1 point larger, and that's not chump change.

I really don't think that even all this matches up to being able to have a starmantle on contingency.

But still.

If a wizard's spell list doesn't have real game-breaking power behind it, just a series of broken combos, then what does the druid and cleric got? The ability to more likely slip through a DM because they have a straight manipulation to numbers rather than stupidity like magic jarn?

I'll buy that.

[Username17]

Seriously. The cleric's piece of cheese comes down to two-or-three spells. Namely, divine favor, divine power, and righteous might. If you believe in domain spells, this can be more, but this is basically it

This is not, in fact, actually true.

Clerics also get (in no particular order, and without recourse to domain spells):

Spell Resistance.
Weapon of the Deity
Weapon of Energy
Girallon's Blessing/Fuse Arms
Improved Blindsight
Superior Resistance
Holy Star
Prayer
Blessed Aim
Bless
Recitation
Bear's Heart
Divine Agility
Divine Flame/Zephyr
Flame of Faith
Lesser Telepathic Bond
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Spikes
Unfailing Endurance
Body Blades
Weapon of Impact
Aura Against Flame
Blindsight
Favor of Ilmater
Battle Tide
Monstrous Regeneration
Spellmantle
Azuth's Spell Shield
Fortunate Fate
Undeath's Eternal Foe
Hand of Divinity
Hand of Torm
Energy Immunity
Gaze Screen
Deathwatch
Magic Circle
Shield of Faith
Death Knell
Delay Poison
Find Traps
Understand Device
Resist Energy
Undetectable Alignment
Continual Flame
Magic Circle
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Air Walk
Death Ward
Freedom of Movement
Greater Magic Weapon
Spell Immunity (and greater)
Disrupting Weapon
Align Weapon
True Seeing
Antilife Shell
Heroes' Feast
Wind Walk


That's a short list out of a couple of books. If you use some of the more obscure settings and such you can get even more. If you use the mature content or miniatures line you can get more. If you actually use Domain spells you get more. And I probably missed some because I was writing them down as they occured to me.

A Cleric at high level can profitably expend every single spell slot she has upon various buffs.

A Cleric can walk in with Morale Bonuses, Sacred Bonuses, Luck Bonuses, Competence Bonuses, Enhancement Bonuses - basically everying but Kitchen Sink Bonuses.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Dag.

That's some nice stuff. I wonder how I forgot one of these fundamentals.

[Josh_Kablack]

1077472642[/unixtime]] basically everying but Kitchen Sink Bonuses.

-Username17

Which is a strong incentive to pick up the first level of Plumber.

[User3]

Arcane Strike ain't that bad. It lets you take prepared spells that have no relevance to a survival situation in a given encounter and actually turn it into something that might save you.

It's more an insurance policy than anything. A good wizard needs to still think smartly about what spells to prepare. But if you are about to die in combat, and all you got left is a Scry and Fireball (and your opponent is fire immune), those spells can help you turn the tide of battle.

[Username17]

Arcane Strike ain't that bad.

Yes it is.

But if you are about to die in combat, and all you got left is a Scry and Fireball (and your opponent is fire immune), those spells can help you turn the tide of battle.

Then you could have taken your feat and put it into Bonus Spell Slot: 2nd level (which is itself a worthless feat, which makes this example even more one sided), and used the bonus spell to pocket a Bul's Strength, which will actually inflict more damage and give you more net to-hit bonuses over the course of the battle than will expending both your Fireball and your Scry as Arcane Strikes. And you'd still have the Fireball, the Scry, and the Bull's Strength left over at the end instead of absolutely nothing.

Arcane Strike has a huge opportunity cost. It costs a feat and also costs a spell slot every single round.

It's not always the worst thing to do with your spell slots - but it is the worst thing to do with your feats.

-Username17

[User3]

I don't see your math working out right in your Bull's Strength example, FRank.

Also note, I think Arcane Strike works better in a Blackguard Demonbinder build than in a Wizard Eldritch Knight build.

Paladin1/Blackguard10/NarDemonbinder1/Spellsword1/EK6/xxx1


A build like that is made to take into front-line battle. And you are often better using those weak selection of Nar arcane spells as melee boosts. The combination of Arcane Strike, Divine Might, and Sneak Attack could be potent here with a BAB of +19 and 8th level spells. The HD of this build is pretty damn strong as well

[Username17]

I don't see your math working out right in your Bull's Strength example, FRank.

Assume for the moment that you are for some reason using a Staff as your primary, and indeed, only melee weapon. Because you are a wizard, and that's what you do. It's one of the worst weapons in the entire game, but we'll go with it for now. You had a Strenghth of 14 or so to begin with and would be hitting about half the time against whatever you are fighting. Because you can even consider getting Arcane Strike, you have a BAB of +4, which means that since you have a Scry on-hand, the minimum possible level we could be at is level 8, which means that your Staff is benefitting from a GMW at +2.

So the Arcane Strike in our example can be used twice. Once it gives +3 to-hit and +3-12 damage. Once it gives +4 to-hit and +4-16 damage. That's impressive. For two consectuive rounds you go from hitting on 10 numbers for an average damage of 8.925 damage per hit to hitting on 13 numbers for 16.425 damage on a hit and then hitting on 14 numbers for 18.925 damage per hit, and then you go back to regular damage. So that's a bonus damage of +6.21375 damage on the round you give up the Fireball, and a bonus damage of +8.785 damage on the second round. Total average damage output of feat and clearing out your entire spellbook: 14.99875 damage on average. For the entire battle, and indeed, the entire day.

In the Bull's strength example, we get +2 to-hit on every single attack, and an additional +3.15 points of damage per hit, which raises us to hitting on 12 numbers for 12.075 damage every round for the entire combat. That's 2.7825 damage per round, for ever. So it catches up in 5.3 rounds of combat, and pulls ahead after six.

For some reason you are in a life-or death situation in which you, the wizard, are fighting in a steel cage match against something Fire Immune where your damage output in melee is important. Which probably means that the entire rest of the party is absent or busy. So, do you think that an 8th level Wizard is going to spend 6 rounds or more beating down an enemy of his level with a stick? I do. And that means that the Bull's Strength is doing more damage than the Arcane Strike feat and the expenditure of all of your spells together. And Bull's Strength is still a crappy 2nd level spell which Wizards usually do not bother casting on themselves.

Also note, I think Arcane Strike works better in a Blackguard Demonbinder build than in a Wizard Eldritch Knight build.

If you are using Nar Demonbinder builds and haven't automatically won yet, you are doing something terribly terribly wrong. It is trivial to raise your caster level into the mid fifties and the class specializes in custom-tailored castings of blasphemy - it may as well be called the "I automatically win" class. Complicated jiggery pokery with the class in order to swap its spells out for small amounts of melee damage instead of automatically winning D&D is a waste of your time and mine.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Arcane Strike can add a little fun to a smackdown, though. If that's important to your game for some reason . . .

[User3]

First off, an 8th level Wizard isn't gonna take Arcane Strike. An Eldritch Knight will take Arcane Strike at either levels 12, 15, or 18. At a point when his higher BAB (than a pure Wizard that is) will get him multiple hits in a round. Compared to the considerably lower BAB total that the Wizard has, the EK will be most likely getting 1 or 2 additional strikes in per round. That should factor in to your math when making a comparison. Because I agree, an 8th level Wizard *with* Arcane Strike made a foolish decision.

[Username17]

Because I agree, an 8th level Wizard *with* Arcane Strike made a foolish decision.

As the limit of the base damage goes up, the aditional damage granted by the Arcane Strike or the Bull's Strength falls out of the equation, and the only important term is the bonus to-hit.

If, in our example, the character was, instead of swinging a toothpick, using a Hackmaster +12 that did a gajillion points of damage and attacking several times a round, the bonus damage granted by either effect would be meaningless. Instead, the character would be killing one enemy per hit, and their chance of hitting would be the deciding factor in how many enemies died at the end of the day.

At that limit it only takes 4 rounds for the Bull's Strength to become the better bet - the two Arcane Strikes in our example add +3 to hit on one round, and +4 tohit on another, for a total of +7 extra numbers that you hit on over the course of the fight (times however many attacks you get per round). Meanwhile, the Bull's Strength is still adding +2 to-hit every round, so after four rounds that's 8 extra numbers you hit on (times however many attacks you get per round).

I was being generous by having the worst possible melee artist using Arcane Strike. As the user gets better and better before using either bonus - the relative bulge Arcane Strike enjoys (and thus the number of rounds of combat needed for Bull's Strength to over take it) go down.

Arcane Strike can add a little fun to a smackdown, though. If that's important to your game for some reason . . .

I suppose... but it is not cumulative with Tensers, so it has to be a pretty weird Smackdown, honestly.

-Username17

[User3]

Ah! but the odds are, the Eld. Knight with Arcane Strike is already using Bull's Strength himself as well. Eknights are inherently very selfish with their spell allotments. So in all probability, he's reserved a Bull's Strength (or made a wondrous item) for himself for the expected 3-5 fights per day. the wizzie who may have a BS spell on hand, may have already used it to give to his party Tank (being the party "enabler" that he is).

that's Lago's whole point i think. the Eld. Knight uses his entire spectrum of spells to either buff himself or sac to arcane strike. yeah, he sucks apples at early levels and does nothing to promote harmony in the group, but he can dish damage like nobody's business at higher levels. 4 attacks + 1 Haste attack per round, supplemented by saccing a 7th level spell to AS, other buffs (Fire Shield, Polymorph to LEgendary Ape, etc.) up the wazoo, etc. .... all add to a pretty decent self-contained combatant.

although i'd still rather have a Bard with Word of Creation as a 5th member, and thats saying a lot..

[fbmf]

Eknights are inherently very selfish with their spell allotments.
<SNIP>
and does nothing to promote harmony in the group

It's bad enough when players are like this, let alone their characters. These are bad tactics in a cooperative roleplaying game.

Game On,
fbmf

[Oberoni]

A fighter type that's selfish with his spells isn't a big deal.

If you conceive of an EK as a "wizard type," then yeah, I suppose it looks shady. If you do the right thing and see them as fighter-types, then guess what? They're just using a class feature to buff themselves up, not very different from a barbarian's rage, fighter's bonus feats, etc.

Now, my next thing. So Bull's Strength is supposed to be better than blowing slots to Arcane Strike.

Um...why not do both?

[Username17]

Ah! but the odds are, the Eld. Knight with Arcane Strike is already using Bull's Strength himself as well.

You're totally right. If you assume that the character already has Bull's Strength up, then casting Bull's Strength again is a net zero and looks pretty shady. I have no idea what that had to do with disproving my assertion that Arcane Strike was worse than Bull's Strength.

Um...why not do both?

Why not use Bull's Strength and Weapon Specialization? Why not use Bull's Strength and Cleave? Why not use Bull's Strength and Improved Trip?

No reason in principle. Certainly if you had Arcane Strike, you'd use it. But it costs a feat and a spell to stab someone on one turn. An offensive spell costs just a spell and stabs people for one turn, a general feat just costs a feat and stabs people for many many turns.

The only advantage that stabbing people with a sword has over casting spells on people is that stabbing can be done over and over again without particular limit. When your stabbing is profoundly limited in its uses - it starts to stack up very poorly to offensive spells.

Arcane Strike has all the limitations of both Offensive Spells and Stabbing people with a sword. That's a lot to contend with, and it's not worth a feat.

-Username17

[Oberoni]

Ok, so does this tend to be mostly an argument of opportunity cost?

I can buy that. If there's always a better feat choice out there, than it's not a good idea to take Arcane Strike.

I'm currently not sold on the first part of that statement, since even the sacrifice of a 1st-level spell give you better-than-weapon-specialization for one round.

I guess I also have some issue with this statement:

Arcane Strike has all the limitations of both Offensive Spells and Stabbing people with a sword. That's a lot to contend with, and it's not worth a feat.

Now, this isn't intuitively bad.

If the feat gave you +30 to hit and +30 damage per spell burned, for example, you suddenly don't care about the double-limitation bit.

So I guess my question is: How would the numbers on Arcane Strike need to be changed to make it a viable feat?