Bahamut's Budies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

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Galahad_Knight
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1070602614[/unixtime]]GK - so your basic point is that the DM can change things as he sees fit, and is well within his rights to let you walk off free and clear with 9000 gold worth of platinum whether or not you take this class.

This is true. Trivially so. It's called the Oberoni Fallacy - please shut up now.

-Username17


Not only are you being fantastically rude, you're also misusing the oberoni fallacy and completely missing my point... All at the same time!
God, you're so multitalented!

My point is that nowhere in the rules does it day that the DM MUST make this money go away.

Yes, a DM can habd you 9000 GP if he wants to. But that's not at issue here.

You are arguing that the rules say that the character must have average wealth.
I'm arguing that the ONLY thing that supports your arguement is an optional rule that is meant to be sued only as a way of keeping player power in check.

Since power is not at issue, and there's a REASON for the character to have the money, there's no reason for the DM to take it away.

If you're going to concede a debate, at least have the tact to do it graciously.

Telling me to shut up because you can;t come up with a decent arguement not only fails to endear me to you, but it also does you a disservice. It makes you look petty and childish, and I'm trying not to believe that.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Username17 »

My point is that nowhere in the rules does it day that the DM MUST make this money go away.


The rules also don't say the DM must let you play the class. In fact, the rules specifically don't say that the DM must do anything at all.

That's the Oberoni Fallacy. As soon as you rely upon the DM's all powerful status to make any of the guidelines in the book go away (as indeed everything is simply a guideline in the face of mighty rule zero), you are by very definition right.

And once you predicate your argument on a tautology, you can logically claim anything at all. By arguing from the standpoint "The DM can do anything at all, therefore XXX can be done." you are simultaneously correct and completely full of shit. And that's the Oberoni Fallacy, start to finish.

Any possible discussion of what rules say or do has to be put in the context of the guidelines actually present in the book. It can be put in the alternate context of what a DM could do by changing those guidelines - but then it has significantly less meaning.

And of course, since you are arguing that the money works one way within the context of the DM changing the guidelines of how money works - that reduction in meaning is as close to one hundred percent as makes no odds.

For what it's worth: you are correct. he DM is well within his or her rights to do that. The DM is also equally well within his or her rights to allow Paladins to cast spells like Clerics and Monks to cast spells like Wizards.

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Galahad_Knight
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

:wtf:

Honestly, Frank...you;re grasping at straws here, and completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.

The guideline isnpt a RULE!
Bu its very nature, what with it being a *guideline* it is subject to subjective use by the DM. You're the one arguing that you can't keep the money, within the guideline. I'm not the one who started that line of thinking.

nor am I citing that the DM can CHANGe any rule or guideline, because he can; But that's not the point here. You can;t start an arguement based on a guideline, then call my counterarguement invalid based upon the SAMe guideline.

If you're right then we shouldn't even be having this conversation because it should never have started. Which means I was right from the beginning.

My point is that the guideline applies only as a means of checking power within a default, average-power setting. If having the money isn't overpowered in an AVERAGE setting, the guideline does not come into play at all.

Yes, a DM could rule that in his setting, giving a paladin full cleric casting isn;t overpoewered. But it WOULD be overpowered in an average setting.

This class, with its bonus money os *not* overpoweered in a standard setting, thus the guideline does not apply. Since we can;t cite individual campaigns or DM decisions we must fall on the law of avcerages.

Considering the averagte power of other PrCs, from which we derive that this class sucks without the money, having the money does not overpower the character. Thus there is no need to call in the guideline, thius it is perfectly fine to keep the money in an average setting.

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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Maj »

Galahad wrote:But don't forget, there are strings attached.
by taking this money, the PC puts himself in debt to a dragon...not just any dragon, a dragon *gawd* who leaves the corpses of theves to rot into bones on the floor of his lair.


I disagree, actually. From what the book says, it sounds a lot like a reward:

The Book of Exalted Deeds, page 81 wrote:At 2nd, 5th, and 8th level, a Vassal of Bahamut recieves a modest lump sum reward for his loyal service.


This would imply to me that the Vassal is being paid because Bahamut is indebted to the Vassal, not the other way around.

:uptosomething:
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Galahad_Knight
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

Well, yes.
Except for the part that says this...
BOED wrote: If the money is spent frivelously or unwisely, Bahamut sends a loyal representative [...] to demand repayment.


Likewise, if you break your vows you no longer qualify for the class, which means the money, as a class ability, is lost. Presumably in the afforementioned manner.

while this money is not a loan or anything, it does put the player in debt to Bahamut in that should he misuse the money or break his voes, then he has to repay it.

His debt is good behavior (wise spending and adherence to vows). The money is colateral.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Maj »

Yeah... Obviously you're rewarded for being good, so if you're not good, then you're not rewarded.

That doesn't seem like a debt, though... More like retail shopping.

I mean, if my friends pay me to make food because they think it's yummy, and then I start making bad food - they're gonna want their money back. Likewise, if I buy a Pocket Dragon, and it arrives broken, I send it back.
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Galahad_Knight
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

That's different though.

It;s not a case of "You weren't good today, so you don't get any money" it's a case of "You already have the money, and you've been bad...give it back. All of it, every dime of it. Not just for last time, but since we met."

In this case if, at any point in time, your pocket dragon breaks, you can send gold dragons to make the merchant give you your momey back. And if he's broken his promises to you, the consumer, you can also demand all the money you ever paid him for anything back.
And if he refuses to pay, well...there's the gold dragons to deal with :grin:

From the player's perspective it's a bit more serious than simple retail arrangements. But it is a decent analogy.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Username17 »


Likewise, if you break your vows you no longer qualify for the class, which means the money, as a class ability, is lost.


It's a 3.5 class and thus, that is simply a false statement.

As previously noted in this thread, losing class prereqs does not cause your class abilities to go away at all.

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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

Really? That's news to me.

<shrugs> Then I guess they don;t come and collect if you break your vows.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Ramnza »

Ok, this is really long to read...huffing...puffing...
Better now. I have to agree with Maj. It's money and it's a silly class feature. And don't we always try to improve on the senseless writting? So, as DM's we try to make the classes balanced and as PC's we look for cheese. In the end what matters is if the class ability is something that gives the PCs something worth of value. Money is money. The more money a PC has the more items a PC will buy and the more outrageous the items become. It's the DM's call on whether or not a PC will retain the class ability. Replace it with something else if need be. But the money doesn't add to the class. Not really.

You're already going to be killing dragons with mighty treasure hords. What more do you need? Never rule out PC greed. I have seen it before and it is annoying. Or for that matter PC jealousy.


Frank wrote:As previously noted in this thread, losing class prereqs does not cause your class abilities to go away at all.


Doesn't any one think it strange that once you lose your preqs you can still take levels in that class?

I think I've forgotten anything else I wanted to say.
Oh, wait.

Galahad's point was valid too. If you go around taking away the cheese from classes then PC's are gonna start to feel frustrated about what they were looking forward to having. If in fact what they were jumping around and clapping their hands like idiots was the extra money they would get. Just make everyone aware of it, if in the future anyone wants these classes.

PS. The knight sucks. Really, really sucks. Sucks the funky hotdog.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Jack_Lurch »

Ramnza wrote:
And don't we always try to improve on the senseless writting?
<SNIP>
It's the DM's call on whether or not a PC will retain the class ability. Replace it with something else if need be.


This is dangerously close to the Oberoni fallacy.

Ramnza wrote:
Sucks the funky hotdog.


:wtf:

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For those just joining us...

Post by fbmf »

For those who are not WotC expatriates and/or not affiliated with Nifty, may I present:

The Oberoni Fallacy wrote:
Let's say Bob the board member makes the assertion:

"There is an inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X."

Several correct replies can be given:

A> "I agree, there is an inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X."
B> "I agree, and it is easily solvable by changing the following part of Rule X."
C>"I disagree, you've merely misinterpreted part of Rule X. If you reread this part of Rule X, you will see there is no inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue."

Okay, I hope you're with me so far.
There is, however, an incorrect reply:

D> "There is no inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue with Rule X, because you can always Rule 0 the inconsistency/loophole/mechanics issue."

Now, this incorrect reply does not in truth agree with or dispute the original statement in any way, shape, or form.

It actually contradicts itself--the first part of the statement says there is no problem, while the last part proposes a generic fix to the "non-problem."

It doesn't follow the rules of debate and discussion, and thus should never be used.

Simple enough.


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Re: For those just joining us...

Post by Maj »

Oddly enough... I'd like to point out that in discussing whether or not you are indebted to Bahamut, Galahad and I switched points of view and began arguing each other's point:

By saying that you are indebted to Bahamut, and that you will suffer loss upon collection of his platinum, you are accepting the fact that the money the sky dragon has given you is part of the rest of your wealth.

By saying that it's money that Bahamut has paid for your good behavior, you are accepting the fact that it's money above and beyond your other wealth.

Just found that amusing...

:uptosomething:

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Re: For those just joining us...

Post by Username17 »

Of course it really doesn't matter one way or another.

A class feature which becomes larger in absolute terms if you gain it later than if you gained it earlier is bad design. A class feature which can only be used once ever and is then gone is also bad design.

The Vassal's monetary ability is both larger if you put it off for several levels than if you take it at the earliest possible time and is only usable once before it is gone for good.

Thus in all ways it is massively superior for a newly minted 15th level character than it is for an organically grown 15th level character, which means that the class feature is in all ways bad game design.

So that fact that it doesn't interact properly with wealth by level guidelines should come as no surprise. The ability is conceptual crap - mechanical issues are completely secondary to that and simply add to those completely insurmountable problems it already has.

The ability could be replaced with something which was neither expendable nor linked to the level of acquisition. For example, you could have the ability to draw upon the hoard - being able to simply reach into your pockets and pay in platinum for any of your mundane expenses. That would be kind of cool - but the ability as described is completely and utterly unsalvageable.

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Re: For those just joining us...

Post by Galahad_Knight »

Maj at [unixtime wrote:1070650423[/unixtime]]Oddly enough... I'd like to point out that in discussing whether or not you are indebted to Bahamut, Galahad and I switched points of view and began arguing each other's point:

By saying that you are indebted to Bahamut, and that you will suffer loss upon collection of his platinum, you are accepting the fact that the money the sky dragon has given you is part of the rest of your wealth.

By saying that it's money that Bahamut has paid for your good behavior, you are accepting the fact that it's money above and beyond your other wealth.

Just found that amusing...

:uptosomething:



Now, I never said that the money wasn't part of your wealth. Just thaty it wasn't *treasure* :wink:

And the only thing resembling rule regarding wealth limits is an optional guideline that is intended to enforce character balance. Since it's a gideline then it's not a hard and fast rule and can't really be debated since it requires the DM to make a judgement call either way.
Though since the rule is intended to keep PC power in check, I don't think it would apply here anyhow since we've all agreed that the class sucks without the extra money...so having more wealth than normal isn't unbalanced for this class.

But that particular train of thought has already arrived at the downtown station and unloaded its passengers.

Time to hop the crosstown bus to another line of thought.

Frank brings up an interesting point of the conceptual qwuality of the ability and its mechanical implementation.

I do agree that it's odd that the more levels you get before joing the class, the more money you get. But there are other classes that have special abilities based on total character level, so it's not that unusual.
But, perhaps it should be changed to read 'character level' instead of class level.

As t5o the conceptual quality of it...I rather like the idea.
Money means a lot to dragons, even good ones. Getting a cut of bahamut's hoard is a massive gesture. It's saying that the dragon god believes in you and is trusting you to do the right thing with some of his personal stash.

Besides that it's a good roleplaying situation, especially considering that it's an 'exalted' class. What would a good guy do if he were given a wad of cash and told to use it wisely?

Plus, of course, there's the fact that money is more useful than a fixed ability. What good is a magic sword if you use a bow, for example?

But I could see that it;s a very unusual ability and not for everyone. Perhaos it would be better to replace it with something else.
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Re: For those just joining us...

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

There's the rub, though; Replace it with what? How do you balance that with something else? That class level x 100 plat is just all kinds of wrong, even though I happen to think this class is a really nice class otherwise.

(I am aware of the arguments against VoB, and I don't agree with them at all, so don't bother trying to explain it to me again.)

I could maybe think of something if it was, well, damn near anything else at all.
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Re: For those just joining us...

Post by Username17 »

The big problem here is that "What would you do with 9000 gold worth of platinum?" is not a class feature - it's an adventure hook. That is, it is a game session or two - at the conclusion of which, you probaly have most of 9000 gold worth of swag - but might not.

That's similar to the adventure hook: There's a bad-ass 9th level evil knight you are supposed to beat up who happens to have the usual assortment of treasure for a 9th level toss-off NPC - 12,000 gold.

In either case, you play a game session which revolves around this new facet of the world, and at the end you make off with however much swag you managed to keep. Maybe the evil Knight had some of his treasure in a necklace of fireballs (used), and maybe the VoB had to spend some of that money to get the ferryman to stop in the wyvern infested swamp long enough to shuttle the refugees to safety.

So there's no guaranty that at the end of those adventures you will actually see 9000 or 12000 gp worth of swag on your character sheet. In fact, you probably won't in either case.

And while both of those adventures have the potential to be fun - pretending that one of them is a class feature is absurd. If anything, fighting the evil knight should be a class feature because the potential monetary rewards are 33% higher.

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Re: For those just joining us...

Post by Galahad_Knight »

<shrugs> Class abilities can be plot hooks too. Suddenly recieving training in an exotic weapon shouldn;t happen overnight. Maybe you had nto look for a great master to instruct you?

<shrug> As I said, it's an unusual class ability, but I don't think it's bad.

What would you replace it with, Frank?
The problem is, money is versitile. That versitility is hard to replace.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Maj »

I looked up Bahamut in Deities and Demigods and decided to try my hand at improving the class as per Galahad Knight's request.

So here you go...

The Vassal of Bahamut

Requirements
To qualify as a Vassal of Bahamut, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment: Lawful Good
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Craft: Armorsmithing 5 ranks
Diplomacy 5 ranks
Language: Draconic
Special:Must have single-handedly slain a red dragon of juvenile age or older

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills
The Vassal of Bahamut's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty (Int), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Code: Select all

[br]Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special                                  Spells[br]                                                                                 1    2    3    4[br][br]1st	+1	+2	+0	+0	Imperious Aura, Platinum Armor           -    -    -    -[br]2nd	+2	+3	+0	+0	Platinum Armor +1, Bonus Feat            0    -    -    -[br]3rd	+3	+3	+1	+1	Dragon Senses, Divine Luck +1            1    0    -    -[br]4th	+4	+4	+1	+1	Platinum Armor +2, Dragonwrack +2d6/1d6  1    1    -    -[br]5th	+5	+4	+1	+1	Bonus Feat, Draconic Magic Affinity      1    1    0    -[br]6th	+6	+5	+2	+2	Platinum Armor +3, Divine Luck +2        1    1    1    -[br]7th	+7	+5	+2	+2	Dragonwrack +3d6/1d6, Fire Immunity      2    1    1    0[br]8th	+8	+6	+2	+2	Platinum Armor +4, Bonus Feat            2    2    1    1[br]9th	+9	+6	+3	+3	Divine Luck +3, Enhanced Dragon Senses   2    2    1    1[br]10th	+10	+7	+3	+3	Platinum Armor +5, Dragonwrack +4d6/2d6  2    2    2    1[br]


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Vassal of Bahamut prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Vassals of Bahamut are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are also proficient with all armor, and with all shields except the tower shield.

Spells: Beginning at 2nd level, a Vassal of Bahamut gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a spell, the Vassal must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + spell level, and prepares and casts just like a cleric except he cannot spontaneously cast Cure spells.

The following are the spells available to a Vassal of Bahamut:
  • 1st level - Bless, Bless Weapon, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Lantern Light, Protection Against Evil, Shield of Faith
  • 2nd level - Align Weapon, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Change Self, Cure Moderate Wounds, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Undetectable Alignment
  • 3rd level - Cure Serious Wounds, Discern Lies, Magic Circle Against Evil, Protection From Energy, Refreshment, Searing Light
  • 4th level - Cure Critial Wounds, Dispel Evil, Divination, Divine Power, Holy Sword, Tongues


Imperious Aura: The Vassal of Bahamut gains a bonus equal to his class level on all Charisma-based skill checks made against dragons and dragon-type creatures (such as wyverns).

Platinum Armor: A Vassal of Bahamut is granted the ability to create platinum scale mail from the hide of a slain red dragon of juvenile age or older. It takes one week to work the scales into a wearable suit of masterwork platinum armor (plus an additional two days per point of enhancement bonus the Vassal of Bahamut is capable of investing in his armor). During this time, the Vassal must not engage in any other activities other than eating and sleeping. The finished masterwork suit of armor weighs 25 pounts and confers a +8 armor bonus. Its other properties are as a masterwork chain shirt (+4 Max Dex, -1 Armor Check Penalty, 20% Arcane Spell Failure, no speed reduction). Only the creator of the armor may wear it, which instantly turns to dust if donned by another creature. The Vassal may replace a lost suit using scales from a slain juvenile (or older) red dragon, as noted above, but can craft no more than one such suit at a time. The Vassal's platinum armor may be enhanced using standard item creation feats.

At 2nd level, the Vassal's platinum armor serves as a conduit for the protective blessing of Bahamut. If the Vassal spends an additional two days praying and working his armor, it gains an enhancement bonus of +1. This bonus can increase by one point every two levels thereafter if the Vassal invests an additional two days in working his armor for each point of bonus added.

Dragon Senses: The Vassal of Bahamut gain the ability to see four times as well as a human in low-light conditions, twice as well as a human in normal light. He also gains darkvision out to 120 feet.

Divine Luck: The Vassal of Bahamut gains a +1 bonus to all saves. This bonues increases to +2 at level 6, and +3 at level 9.

Dragonwrack: At fourth level, a Vassal of Bahamut deals 2d6 points of damage with each successful melee attack made against an evil dragon. Further more, any creature that strikes the Vassal with a natural or melee weapon takes 1d6 points of damage. In both cases, half this bonus damage is permanent hit point drain. Only a Wish or Miracle can restore hit points drained permanently by the ability. At 7th level, these bonuses increase to +3d6/1d6 and at 10th leve, to +4d6/2d6.

Draconic Magic Affinity: Any spell the Vassal of Bahamut casts on a dragon has its effects maximized as if by the Maximize Spell metamagic feat.

Fire Immunity: A Vassal of Bahamut gains immunity to Fire.

Enhanced Dragon Senses: The Vassal of Bahamut becomes more dragon-like. He gains blindsight to the range of his darkvision.

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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

I like it. It's a really neat spin.
The luck bonus to saves is neat. I'm not sure how weell it fits with Bahamut though. I might consider some kind of smite ability akin to the PK, but with less suck in its place, but that's me.

I like the magic affinity, that's pretty cool.

Though I think Fire Immunity might be better replaced with Breath Weapon Immunity. (perhaps limited to just dragons and things like the chimera). Though Bahamut is none too fond of red dragons, there are other evil dragons and only one of them uses fire.

A blanket breath weapon immunity would be more powerful from an anti-dragon perspective, but less so in an all-around perspective. And it makes more sense to me that a dragfon-fighter could shrug off a dragon's breath weapon rather than a sorcerer's fireball.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Maj »

I figured the Dragonwrack was as close as I wanted to get to smiting, largely because I just wanted something kinda different. I didn't want to take a normal class feature and focus it tighter. I wanted to add something.

The Luck bonus is there because Bahamut has the luck domain. Which means something to someone. I figured, what the hell?

Magic Affinity is a cute perk, but I don't think it's too major. Searing Light, Bear's Endurance, and Cure Critical don't seem to be earth shattering spells to me, but I'm sure someone better at cheese can find a way...

I actually chose fire because the "greatest" of the dragons - the gold - is a fire type, and it made sense to have the vassal become closer to the mortal epitome of dragonness. But that was flavor text I neglected to put in there.

I could write it either way, but I'd like to wait for other comments.

:D Thanx for the input; glad you like it.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Galahad_Knight »

Ah, so he does. His domains change every time he's printed, so forgive me there <chuckles> Luck bonus fits just fine.

I like the reasoning for the fire immunity, but I still think a breath weapon immunity woudl be more fitting. But that's me.
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Ramnza »

Why not distribute which breath weapon he/she is immune to throughout the levels, making fire the last since it is the great powerful Gold dragon's? Otherwise, all at once, just like that, immune to all kinds of breath weapon, seems mighty overpowerful to me.

Maj that's really kewl. I love the luck bonus. Who wouldn't want a luck bonus?!!!
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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Username17 »

The luck domain is there on Bahamut because of the good fortune powers on the Gold Dragon - which are in turn there because the Gold Dragon is based on the Chinese Dragon which is considered to be Lucky.

However, be very careful on this class, and on any time you give a class "magical bonuses" to stuff. After all, a Cleric can already generate Magical Bonuses, many of which are going to be as large or larger than these.

In short, when an 11th level character gets "a +2 enhancement bonus to his armor" - that's the same as "the Cleric in your party gets an extra 3rd level spell slot" (that she doesn't have to prepare as Magic Vestment). At 12th level, when your bonus is still only +2 - it's not even that good.

Remember that a +1 Luck Bonus doesn't stack with Prayer - and it's not like high level characters traditionally go around in combat without benefitting from Prayer.

Unless you go around and severely nerf the buffing Cleric - no class feature should give you named bonuses. The Class should make you Lucky and give you an unnamed bonus to saves. The class should give you awesome armor and increase the armor bonus directly.

The realities of buffing spells are that no class can ever look fair if iit has to compete against them. Unnamed bonuses can be small - because they are always in addition to whatever buffs you have available. Named bonuses have to be huge, because they have to be larger than the spells that are available at your level if they are to mean anything at all.

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Re: Bahamut's Buddies...Platinum Knight vs Vassal of Bahamut

Post by Maj »

FrankTrollman wrote:The luck domain is there on Bahamut because of the good fortune powers on the Gold Dragon - which are in turn there because the Gold Dragon is based on the Chinese Dragon which is considered to be Lucky.


Every time I wonder about the mentality of the game designers, I find myself unhappy that I wasted my time wondering. What they were thinking is not important. In the lame system of D&D, many of the gods are screwed out of some happy flavor because their domains are based on their alignment rather than what the god actually stands for, which means that my faith in how the gods are written up diminishes with every unhappy realization I have.

Frank wrote:However, be very careful on this class, and on any time you give a class "magical bonuses" to stuff. After all, a Cleric can already generate Magical Bonuses, many of which are going to be as large or larger than these.


And I totally wasn't recalling any of them at three in the morning...

Frank wrote:In short, when an 11th level character gets "a +2 enhancement bonus to his armor" - that's the same as "the Cleric in your party gets an extra 3rd level spell slot" (that she doesn't have to prepare as Magic Vestment). At 12th level, when your bonus is still only +2 - it's not even that good.


My goal was two-fold:

1) To give a happy perk that wasn't that major to the class.

2) To imitate the Shared Trove ability without actually giving out money.

The nice thing about having the bonus "scale" is that should the class be taken into epic levels, the armor will gain epic bonuses pretty quickly. I'm all for scaling AC bonuses.

The second reason is that if you're not spending money on improving your armor, in theory you've saved it for soemthing else. And there is some cheese here... It would be theoretically possible to lose your armor, spend some money getting your new suit enchanted, then gain the extra bonuses afterwards so you don't have to pay for a total +8 bonus, you just pay for the cost of the bonus of the enchantments you want.

In fact, you could have your armor enchanted with every conceivable bonus except enhancements - and still get the enhancements later.

Frank wrote:Remember that a +1 Luck Bonus doesn't stack with Prayer - and it's not like high level characters traditionally go around in combat without benefitting from Prayer.


I was trying to remember what it was that did that, and I couldn't think of it offhand. I agree with your reasoning and have edited it.

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