Moe to sexy girls 'color' wheel

[Yesterday's Hero]

How real is this getting?

I ask because I have some experience mocking up custom cards with nonstandard symbols (which is irritating as fuck to do in Magic Set Editor), and am willing to do so for this if it gets that far.

These mocks look great. Sign me up for playtesting if it ever comes to that. Been playing MTG since Tempest.

I know you can make custom sets on MTG Workstation. Not sure about Cokatrice, though I assume you can too.

[Username17]

I went for 24 commons because it divides better. I was in fact intending to have some Commons that weren't colored spells. There are 15 possible color pairings, so if the basic multi-Source is a Common, that gives 3 slots to get things onto onto 18 A4 sheets. That could be one Utopia Source that comes into play tapped and two pieces of Equipment.

In any case, I think it's about time to decide on some key mechanics.

I see the Blood Keyword as "Glory" where a creature gets a +1/+1 counter at the end of any combat where they inflict combat damage (whether on a player or another creature). This appears on several of the Vampires, where the basic Spawn of Krevory is a 1/1 so it often doesn't survive combat to get its counter.

I see Counterspells being divided up with Life getting the Counterspells that only stops Creatures and Law getting the Counterspells that only stops non-Creatures and Chaos getting the Counterspell that your opponent can buy their way out of. Unconditional Counterspells are probably Hope.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

I remember in a previous discussion you advocated for basic lands to just be better than MTG lands, with the floor being duals or monos-with-benny. If you wanted to go that route, we could put 15 duals and 12 monos-with-benny (two per color, so one for each girl theme) on three sheets.

Counterspell proliferation makes me nervous. With that many colors getting their own, if someone did manage to make a rainbow permission deck work it could be very frustrating. You could keep the strict number of them down with hybrid mana or split cards, but I would understand if you wouldn't want to include such things in an introductory set.

[Username17]

I remember in a previous discussion you advocated for basic lands to just be better than MTG lands, with the floor being duals or monos-with-benny. If you wanted to go that route, we could put 15 duals and 12 monos-with-benny (two per color, so one for each girl theme) on three sheets.

That's a really good idea. No need for Common colorless Equipment at that point, although I suppose a 9 card sheet of Common clumsy girls, swords, and robots would be a possibility as well.

Counterspell proliferation makes me nervous. With that many colors getting their own, if someone did manage to make a rainbow permission deck work it could be very frustrating. You could keep the strict number of them down with hybrid mana or split cards, but I would understand if you wouldn't want to include such things in an introductory set.

Right now in MtG, every one of those kinds of Counterspells exist in a single color.

• Negate is 1U and counters a non-creature spell.
• Essence Scatter and Essence Capture cost 1U and UU respectively and counter a Creature spell.
• Quench and Syncopate are 1U and XU respectively and counter a spell unless your opponent pays an additional 2 or X mana respectively.
• There are a lot of Hard Counters. From ones that see a lot of play like Sinister Sabotage and Wizard's Retort to ones that are extremely fringe like Admiral's Order to ones that aren't generally used at all like Thought Collapse.

The issue with this is that there's no way to really play around what a Blue player might theoretically have - because if they have two islands up they could potentially have a counterspell that specifically targets anything you might conceivably have. What I'd like to see instead is Control decks whose Countermagic suite was limited to the point that players could potentially play around their options.

So if Chaos gets counterspells that ding you for not leaving untapped power sources, that's a thing that you could potentially do something about if you were playing against a Chaos control player.

-Username17

[Yesterday's Hero]

basic lands to just be better than MTG lands, with the floor being duals or monos-with-benny.

Basic lands could let you Scry 1 when they enter play. That way you smooth out your early game and don't have such a big "feel bad" moment when you draw one late game.

[OgreBattle]

What if clumsy girls are colorless tokens and a deck based around them would be multi color for all of the colors of clumsy girl power ups

[angelfromanotherpin]

Since we're already doing some pretty fundamental monkeying with the game, I propose implementing the long-suggested 'Instant is a supertype' fix. It cleans up a lot of stuff and we can actually do it because we don't have to deal with all the continuity issues it would generate in MTG.

[maglag]

What if clumsy girls are colorless tokens and a deck based around them would be multi color for all of the colors of clumsy girl power ups

So clumsy girls will be the sliver equivalent? I approve of that.

[Username17]

Since we're already doing some pretty fundamental monkeying with the game, I propose implementing the long-suggested 'Instant is a supertype' fix. It cleans up a lot of stuff and we can actually do it because we don't have to deal with all the continuity issues it would generate in MTG.

Definitely the self-imposed limits of MtG's type line are limiting and don't seem to add anything. There is literally zero reason for the "Tribal" type to exist, spells can just have creature types. There is literally no reason at all that a spell like Goblin Gathering can't be a spell with the Goblin subtype.

Now one could certainly imagine some subtypes that are mostly for spells to play with - like maybe Fireball and Firebolt have the "Fire" subtype and you could have tribal spell lords that worked with that. But the core issue with spells and subtypes is that there isn't any reason at all for them to not have access to the full creature list.

As for Instant specifically, I've often felt that "Instant" was a terrible name. It implies that they are somehow faster than things which are "Sorcery Speed." But Sorceries and Instants are exactly the same speed: you cast them and if your opponent passes priority they resolve and if your opponent uses a "fast effect" then it resolves first. The importance is not the speed of the effect (which is unchanged) but rather the timing of when you are allowed to use it. So the tag should be called "Anytime" or some synonym like "Whenever." But I'm perfectly happy to have Rituals that are Whenevers and Rituals that are not.

Basic lands could let you Scry 1 when they enter play. That way you smooth out your early game and don't have such a big "feel bad" moment when you draw one late game.

From a Draft standpoint, the better you make the literal "Basic Land" the better you have to make the Lands that appear in actual packs. Because the Common lands still take a draft pick to get and the Basic Lands still don't. That means that the non-Basic lands do have to be better than the basics. It doesn't necessarily have to be by much because a drafted Source replaces a Source while a drafted creature kicks out the worst drafted creature - but it does have to be enough better that you'd replace the otherwise free Source card.

The key then is what you expect the Sources in a competitive Constructed deck to look like. And for that you want to make it clear that you aren't asking the basic multilands to "pay something" for the fact that they make two different kinds of mana - you're making the other non-basic lands good enough that they can compete for deck space in an environment where people have Multisource cards.

-Username17

[Yesterday's Hero]

From a Draft standpoint, the better you make the literal "Basic Land" the better you have to make the Lands that appear in actual packs. Because the Common lands still take a draft pick to get and the Basic Lands still don't. That means that the non-Basic lands do have to be better than the basics. It doesn't necessarily have to be by much because a drafted Source replaces a Source while a drafted creature kicks out the worst drafted creature - but it does have to be enough better that you'd replace the otherwise free Source card.

The key then is what you expect the Sources in a competitive Constructed deck to look like. And for that you want to make it clear that you aren't asking the basic multilands to "pay something" for the fact that they make two different kinds of mana - you're making the other non-basic lands good enough that they can compete for deck space in an environment where people have Multisource cards.-Username17

Yes, non-basics should be better in this game than in MTG if basics let you scry. So the basic lands that produce mana of 2 different colors should be like the original dual lands rather than the shitty taplands they keep making. The fact that this game has 6 different colors instead of 5 might sway this decision, though.

Another, less powerful, alternative: All basic lands have: "You may have this land enter the battlefield tapped. When you do, Scry 1".

[Username17]

I don't think lands need to scry for the most part. The core drawing mechanic includes the ability to dump one card from your hand onto the bottom of your deck and draw a replacement at the end of each turn. So "extra" lands loot themselves automatically, allowing players to run a slightly higher land count and also mitigate screw and flood.

There can certainly be Scry Lands where it's a card that makes colored mana but also Scries when it comes into play. That seems like a card that people might want in their Constructed decks. But I definitely don't think the basic Gloom Source that isn't a drafted card needs that kind of ability.

-Username17

[Yesterday's Hero]

Addressing the issue of there being too many times you can play a fast effect is as simple as removing some of them. I don't think you need to be able to take actions during the Draw Step, for example. Similarly, you don't need to be able to take actions between First Strike Combat Damage and Regular Combat Damage.

99% of the actions player's take on other people's turns happen in on the these 3 instances:

1) At the end of the first main phase, before attackers are declared (to tap/kill creatures and reduce or dissuade the number of attackers).

2) After attackers are declared an before blockers are declared, to play combat tricks.

3) At the end of the turn, to give a use to extra mana/set up your next turn

Depending on how you structure the turns you may even get rid of 1) or 2) without any mayor losses in gameplay.

I don't think lands need to scry for the most part. The core drawing mechanic includes the ability to dump one card from your hand onto the bottom of your deck and draw a replacement at the end of each turn. So "extra" lands loot themselves automatically, allowing players to run a slightly higher land count and also mitigate screw and flood.

There can certainly be Scry Lands where it's a card that makes colored mana but also Scries when it comes into play. That seems like a card that people might want in their Constructed decks. But I definitely don't think the basic Gloom Source that isn't a drafted card needs that kind of ability.

-Username17

Re-reading the thread I found your suggestion of having a final step where you may put a card from your hand on the bottom of your library and then draw a replacement, I must have missed that earlier. That would make the concept of giving scry to all basic lands redundant, yes.

[Orion]

If you're going to combine instants and sorceries into one card type and use subtypes to specify timing, it is sorceries and not instants that should be marked as exceptional.

Card Types

• Houses.
• Girls.
• 1-3 more types of permanents*
• Spells. Some are "Spell (Ritual)" and some are just "Spell". however you prefer to organize your type line.

Timing Windows

• Whenever you can take actions, you can activate the abilities of cards in play, and you can cast spells (unless they're rituals.)
• During your main phase, you can play houses, girls, and ritual spells, and you can activate ritual abilities from your cards in play.

*MTG has Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers; Eternal has Weapons, Relics, and Curses; Shadowverse just has Amulets. You definitely don't want to do it the way MTG actually did it, and you probably don't want to go full Shadowverse, but there are a very large number of reasonable ways you could divide up the non-creature non-land permanenets into 2-3 types.

[angelfromanotherpin]

MTG has Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers; Eternal has Weapons, Relics, and Curses; Shadowverse just has Amulets. You definitely don't want to do it the way MTG actually did it

What's wrong with the Artifact/Enchantment/Planeswalker setup?

[Username17]

MTG has Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers; Eternal has Weapons, Relics, and Curses; Shadowverse just has Amulets. You definitely don't want to do it the way MTG actually did it

What's wrong with the Artifact/Enchantment/Planeswalker setup?

From a design standpoint, "Artifact" and "Enchantment" are types that do not do anything. The only rules consequence of something being an Enchantment is that it can be targeted by effects that target Enchantments. A card doesn't inherently follow any rules or have any properties for being an Enchantment instead of not being an Enchantment.

The fact that Agent of Erebos is an Enchantment Creature is literally exactly as consequential as the fact that it is a Zombie Creature. It's just a tribal signifier, no more and no less. And I'd make exactly the same argument about Tidehollow Sculler and Artifact/Zombie.

There is zero reason to make Artifact a type. There needs to be a general Asset type, but there's no reason to have more than one, and it's needlessly complicated to use your asset types as Creature subtypes.

If you're going to combine instants and sorceries into one card type and use subtypes to specify timing, it is sorceries and not instants that should be marked as exceptional.

Definitely not. You have Creatures and Assets which by default can only be played during your main phase. Those can benefit from having the Anytime timing stamp. It's a totally arbitrary choice whether you mark the spells that can be played out of turn or mark those that cannot. But you very definitely aren't going to be marking all the Creatures and Assets that can't be played out of turn.

-Username17

[Orion]

Magic the Gathering has too many types of types and they don't make any sense. Combine that with their extreme reluctance to create analytical categories and the results are extremely frustrating. The fact that we've all gotten used to saying things like "instant or sorcery card," "non-basic land" and "non-creature non-land permanent" doesn't make it okay. It's dumb that the list of fast effects is "instants, cards with flash, and activated abilities that aren't restricted to sorcery-speed." A "Basic Land," an "Artifact Creature," a "Sorcery -- Arcane", and an "Enchantment -- Aura" each have 1 word that tells you how the card works (land, creature, sorcery, aura) and one that's just a tag for other effects to interact with (basic, artifact, arcane, enchantment). The functional word might be the first word or the second word and might be a "type" or a "subtype", while the non-mechanical tag might be a "supertype," a "subtype," a second "card type," or the only "card type." And that's terrible.

[DrPraetor]

I like "flash" as the reserved keyword for anything that can be played out-of-turn (and agree that it should be instants and not sorceries which are specially marked.)

Taking MtG as a baseline, how else are you planning to shift things around?

Is the victory condition still "count to X with combat"?
Can you keep resources from turn to turn?

I can see an argument for maybe making most of the card list first, and then deciding from there whether you start the game with provinces that your opponent has to overwhelm individually to smash, whether resources accumulate, how blocking exactly is going to work, and so on.

Brainstorming spell lists is fun.

LIFE
Life's two people tracks are Wild Girls and Spirit Girls. The Wild Girls come in the following classes: Warrior, Berserker, Scout, Shaman, and Druid; the Spirit Girls are basically all just Spirits or Fairies, but they are conceptually Nymphs, Oreads, Dryads, Genius Loci and such. There's a parade of bears, deer, unicorns, and walking trees as you might expect in the animal department. There are also Elves. The biggest things are the Forest Dragon and the Force of Nature.

Commons	Cost	Type(s)
Wolf	G	Creature - Canid
Grove Acolyte	G	Elf Minion
Woodsman	G	Human Scout
Garland of Flowers	G	Charm
Rite of Spring	G	Ritual
Maenads	1G	Human Berserker
Dryad	1G	Creature - Elf Spirit
Daughter of Mistletoe	1G	Human Druid
Sword Dancer	1G	Elf Warrior
Howl	1G	Spell - Canid
Forest Troll	2G	Creature - Spirit
Daughter of the Wolf	2G	Human Canid Berserker
Rite of Autumn	2G	Ritual
Saxifrage	2G	Charm
Sloth of Bears	2G	Ritual - Creature Bear
Lifebringer	3G	Elf Druid
Grove Guardian	3G	Creature - Spirit
Rangers	2GG	Elf Scout
Entangle	3G	Spell
Thorns	3G	Ritual
Warg	4G	Human Bear Berserker
Velvet Paw	4G	Spell
Vily	4GG	Creature - Spirit Berserker
Remorseless Fang	5G	Ritual

Several of these should probably be bumped to uncommon - like wolves would be common and bears would be uncommon, that would make a certain sense.

Nature gets more tribals on their cards and more cards that care about tribals. Do we really want Berserker and Warrior to be different things?

EDIT: Velvet Paw and Remorseless Fang should be common, but they should be different spells that have synergy with one another.

[OgreBattle]

Because Lands Do Stuff, I feel anything that was once an enchantment or artifact can be a "Land" card

Like your Land- Forge can also tap to give a +X/+X bonus to a creature card.

Your Seal of Strength Land is a cake shop and can be sacrificed to turbo cake up you rmuscle girl

[Username17]

Fundamentally, there are five places in MtG that cards go when they have been played.

• Lands go into the lands pile.
• Creatures go into the creature area in front of the lands.
• Artifacts, Enchantments, and Planeswalkers go into the area next to the lands.
• Auras get attached to other cards.
• Instants and Sorceries take effect and go to the Graveyard.

As such there isn't any real reason for there to be more than five types of cards. And even less reason for Unholy Strength, Pestilence, and Agent of Erebos to all have the same type.

The key for types is that they should determine where cards go. And cards like Equipment which move around can be handled in precisely the same way as cards like Jade Statue - by adding a type and moving them around.

• Sources go in the Source Pile.
• Creatures go in front in ranks.
• Assets go to the side.
• Upgrades attach to other cards.
• Spells are sent directly to the graveyard.

That's all there needs to be. Cards that are Assets that become Creatures or Upgrades under certain circumstances are moved to the appropriate position and gain additional types at that time.

An Asset might be a Relic, Gadget, or Enchantment, but those are subtypes.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Artifact is a useful tag in that it conceptually defines its class as objects, just as Land defines its class as places. When you write a card that messes with mana sources, it is fluffed as something that messes with places and not other things (you don't strip mine a pair of boots or a goblin), and similarly you could write an effect that messes with objects and not other things (you don't pilfer a forest or a goblin). So I could see a setup where all e.g. Upgrades are defined as objects, where even blessings and curses are tied to charms and fetishes. But I can also see deciding that making that coherence/flexibility tradeoff isn't worth it.

[Username17]

Artifact is a useful tag in that it conceptually defines its class as objects, just as Land defines its class as places. When you write a card that messes with mana sources, it is fluffed as something that messes with places and not other things (you don't strip mine a pair of boots or a goblin), and similarly you could write an effect that messes with objects and not other things (you don't pilfer a forest or a goblin). So I could see a setup where all e.g. Upgrades are defined as objects, where even blessings and curses are tied to charms and fetishes. But I can also see deciding that making that coherence/flexibility tradeoff isn't worth it.

That is a useful tag which is useful on the level that Goblin or Zombie is useful. There are some cards that will target or count the card because it has the tag, but the tag does not have any inherent meaning to the game and should not be a card type.

I would indeed argue that there should be more than one "object" tag, and that these should be established at the beginning. So you could have "Relics" and "Devices". And then you could have cards like Disenchant hit Relics and Enchantments but not Devices while cards like Shatter hit Devices and Relics but not Enchantments. The Clockwork Spider is a Device and not a Relic, the Marble Golem is a Relic and not a Device. In any case, both the Spider and the Golem have the card type "Creature" and the question of whether they are a Device or Relic is one of subtype.

Although this does bring up another point, which is that having "creature types" and "card types" be different things is fucked up. My suggestion would be that the big divide of Source, Creature, Asset, Upgrade, or Spell is actually "Class" and that all the secondary headers like Goblin and Convergence are "Types." Because MtG uses the word "Type" for too many things and that's bad.

The next question is whether there should be rules-bearing Types like Unique and Anytime or whether there should be an entire section of the card for those kinds of tags that is empty on most cards. And I think it's not too much of a burden to have Types that have rules effects so long as the rules affecting ones always come first after the dash. That would preclude having cards like MtG's Changelings that have types that aren't explicitly printed on the card but I fucking hate those cards so whatever.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Although this does bring up another point, which is that having "creature types" and "card types" be different things is fucked up. My suggestion would be that the big divide of Source, Creature, Asset, Upgrade, or Spell is actually "Class" and that all the secondary headers like Goblin and Convergence are "Types." Because MtG uses the word "Type" for too many things and that's bad.

I broadly agree, but think that Class isn't the best term. As long as you have Human Scouts and similar it's very easy to think of Scout as a 'class' and get muddled. There are a lot of words for divisions of things, though, so there's plenty more to choose from. Kinds, maybe.

The next question is whether there should be rules-bearing Types like Unique and Anytime or whether there should be an entire section of the card for those kinds of tags that is empty on most cards. And I think it's not too much of a burden to have Types that have rules effects so long as the rules affecting ones always come first after the dash.

I don't agree. I think lumping race/class tags in with rule-bearing terms is awkward. 'Anytime Spell' isn't better or worse than 'Spell - Anytime,' but 'Anytime Creature - Ogre Mage' scans better than 'Creature - Anytime Ogre Mage.' Though, not much better.

I think I'm with DrPraetor. Have Anytime be a keyword that goes on cards of all kinds, just like other rule-bearing keywords.

[Username17]

I can see how Kind might be better than Class because there are creature types like Warrior and Wizard that are classes in a Dungeons & Dragons sense.

The question of what the rules bearing keywords are called and where they should appear on the card is an important one, but ultimately one that is largely aesthetic rather than design crucial.

Let's consider the character of Lady Krevory. She's a Creature, she's a Vampire Noble, and she's both Unique and Anytime. Potential ways to have her line of text include:

• Anytime Unique Creature - Vampire Noble
• Creature - Anytime Unique Vampire Noble
• Creature - Vampire Noble - Anytime Unique

All of those pieces of templating unambiguously define the same criteria, but it's important for it to be templated in a consistent fashion. I kind of like the first option best now that I look at them side by side, because you always know that a card kind is coming and that makes it hardest to ignore the rules tags. At least, it does for me.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

The thing that gets me is that Anytime has functionally become a keyword. Putting it on the type line is inconsistent with where all the other keywords go.

[Foxwarrior]

Excited Fangirl
Hasted Trampler Creature - Human Civilian

Might want to print the cards in landscape at that point.