[Dom4] Clusterfuck

[Username17]

So we got invaded. Yes it's turn 6. Maybe we'll win this war, maybe we won't. But since this is Dominions 4 and no one actually gets anything for winning an early game war, we are for all practical matters out of contention for victory. And so is the faction that attacked us: Kailasa. If you are near Kailasa, you should take all the provinces around their capital, because they marched their whole army into Tien Chi and can't stop you. Meanwhile, we will spend all our resources until the end of the game making sure that Kailasa doesn't get our capital and regrets their decision to invade us. That simple and petty revenge is all that is left to us.

Sooner or later I'm going to get a chance to play this fucking game where some asshole doesn't suicide bomb their faction into preventing me from winning the game before the first year is over. That will be awesome. In the meantime, always and forever: if you fuck over my early expansion and shit all over my chances of ever winning the game before the first fucking year is over, I will spend the rest of the game making sure that you don't fucking win either.

Fuck you,
-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

no one actually gets anything for winning an early game war

Please explain further.

[Red_Rob]

Don't take it personally. Yeah, my scouts saw your capital on turn 2. It was 2 moves away from mine. At that point I was pretty sure a first strike was the only viable option seeing as Tien'Chi is supposedly weaker in the early game and having another nation's cap circle right next to mine didn't seem like it would allow me to ever be secure enough to expand properly.

Maybe it was a horrible tactical blunder, but as I said I haven't played much MP. I'd heard that some nation builds can win an early war, so I took a shot at it. At the very least seeing how it plays out will be instructional.

[Username17]

no one actually gets anything for winning an early game war

Please explain further.

Between slower overland movement and slower leader production, it is just plain more difficult to mass an early game force. Also, with slower research, early wars are less decisive and have more battles with a lot of casualties on both sides.

But the real kicker is the existence of fortress upgrades. Your home castle starts with all the fort upgrades. So, for example, Kailasa begins play with a home fortress with a castle defense score of 700. Yes, you read that right, seven hundred. Meanwhile, Kailasa's marching army of sacreds, while it costs over a thousand gold, has a combined siege value of 48. That is not a typo. So if he took that thousand gold worth of sacreds and parked it on top of his own empty home fort, he would bash the gate down in fifteen turns - which of course is long enough for one of his other neighbors to put up two secondary forts, research their way into the middle game, and come down with an actual army capable of doing shit.

Early war is bullshit in Dominions 4. Even if you win, you lose. So I've fucking lost this game, and the only thing left to me is to again try to teach you dumb assholes the lesson that if you fucking wreck my shit before the first year is over, the only thing you'll ensure is that neither you nor I win the fucking game. Because I will fucking hold that grudge for the whole fucking game and I will fucking make you fucking regret it.

If you start a war while there are still neutrals in the world, you have probably just committed a particularly messy form of suicide whose major side effect is to incredibly piss off one other actual person that you just took down with you using your stupidity.

-Username17

[Ikeren]

That's useful information. Thanks.

Is there any way to boost early seige value substantially? Lots and lots of indie archers or summoned great hawks? Like, is it, theoretically possible, from your perspective, for some designed for it build to actually benefit from an early war, or would even things designed for it be unsuccessful?

[Username17]

That's useful information. Thanks.

Is there any way to boost early seige value substantially? Lots and lots of indie archers or summoned great hawks? Like, is it, theoretically possible, from your perspective, for some designed for it build to actually benefit from an early war, or would even things designed for it be unsuccessful?

I could definitely see it coming out of Sceleria, for example. They have the ability to reanimate up a fuck tonne of bullshit undead who still siege pretty well. With an awake super combatant to sucker punch the capital and a shambling mass of bullshit soulless to tear down the walls, you could probably make like a five or six turn fight of it. In the early era, you could probably pull something like that off with Lanka. Agarthan soldiers are absolutely dire, but each Agarthan Militia contributes 3.4 siege points and only costs 7 gold to recruit. So if you had a good matchup and could win the actual battles with your limited specialty elites (troglodytes, mind blasters, and seal guards), or perhaps more likely you can beat the enemy and paralyze their production with an awake Dragon - then you could beat down the fort in just a few turns with a modest gold outlay in bullshit Agarthan militia. 500 gold worth of Agarthan Militia would tear down a starting fort in like 3 turns. Mictlan can do it with slaves, which since they happen to also be a faction that can potentially beat an army with their early forces probably makes them the best early invasion faction of the early era.

But without some sort of siege plan, early war is a losing proposition. A losing the entire game for you and your opponent proposition.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

A few counterpoints:

Between slower overland movement and slower leader production, it is just plain more difficult to mass an early game force.

Not every faction relies on Slow to Recruit leaders, particularly for early wars. Kailasa has no StR commanders, Tien Chi does fine with Masters of the 5 Elements, and there are similar commanders for most other nations. The movement issue can make maneuvering slower, but then again, sometimes you start 2 moves away from the enemies capital so that isn't a problem

Also, with slower research, early wars are less decisive and have more battles with a lot of casualties on both sides.

Research wasn't slowed, it was rebalanced for Dom4. In Dom3 the research goals for levels 1-4 in a school were 40/60/100/160. In Dom4 they doubled the research points on mages and changed the research goals to 50/100/200/400. You'll notice that levels 1 and 2 are now easier to reach, level 3 is the same and level 4 is slightly harder. For most early wars that means that Lightning Bolt, Quicken Self, Geyser, Stoneskin and many others actually come online earlier than in Dom3, and it's not much slower to rush to Flaming Arrows or Blade Wind.

But the real kicker is the existence of fortress upgrades.

This is totally true. But then again, once you have defeated an enemies roving armies and have him under siege in his capital, unless he has another fort up he can't recruit troops. So you can just park an army there and feed in a trickle of low cost Seige crackers (Slingers, Militia and other low cost average str units) until the walls come down whilst you continue with your expansion strategy.

I'm not sure, but I think an early war might still be able to be profitable. It's certainly not as straightforward as in Dom3 though. Then again, I could be talking out of my ass. Guess we'll have some more concrete data soon!

[Zinegata]

I'd just like to add: The only power worth rushing very early is Mictlan, because their forts are crap.

If you rush anyone else, you're probably going to be waiting close to a year to get anywhere (perhaps even more)

[Ikeren]

Well I'll look forward to reading this thread to see how it goes.

Follow up curiosity on your personality Frank; if Red_Rob admitted poor planning or thought and that he made a mistake, and proceeded to negotiate out boundaries (cap circle) and a mutual longterm alliance (with say a NAP-3 or NAP-5) in attempt to return you both to points where you could conceivably win the game, would you? Or after the first mistake, is it now duel to the death?

[Username17]

Well I'll look forward to reading this thread to see how it goes.

Follow up curiosity on your personality Frank; if Red_Rob admitted poor planning or thought and that he made a mistake, and proceeded to negotiate out boundaries (cap circle) and a mutual longterm alliance (with say a NAP-3 or NAP-5) in attempt to return you both to points where you could conceivably win the game, would you? Or after the first mistake, is it now duel to the death?

Look, it's turn 8 and I own three fucking provinces. Instead of having my capital ring and a second fort on the way, I have an existential threat to fight off. I. Can't. Win. My game is over. Even if I decisively chopped the head off of Kailasa next turn, which I will not, I am still completely out of contention for actually winning this game. It's turn 8 of a 40+ turn game, and I already knew I was done for two turns ago because Red Rob fucking suicide bombed me.

It doesn't matter what Red Rob does now. I mean it does in that either of us could nominally win or lose this war, but there is literally nothing he can do to "make it up" to me. The only thing I am playing for at this point is to establish my credibility as someone who fucking make your life hell if you rush me in the beginning of the game. That's it. That's all that is left.

This is the third time I've played a multiplayer game of Dominions 4 and the third time I've had my opening completely fucked because some idiot decided that it would be hella fun to destroy both of our chances of victory by declaring a first year war and completely fuck the economies of both countries for the entire game. Eventually, if I firmly enough establish that I am fucking serious about taking fuckers with me when my expansion gets disrupted and I get booted out of contention in year fucking one, people will stop fucking doing that to me.

If you kick over my sand castle in the beginning of the fucking game, you don't win! I obviously don't win either, because you kicked over my fucking sand castle, but you don't win! Stop fucking doing it.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

Well, this is certainly crowded. I can see flags from every nation in the game already.

On the war front I have 3 nations in my cap circle. This seems foreboding. Then again, 3 nations have been able to move expansion parties into my cap circle already, so maybe this many nations on a map this size was always going to be a drunken knife fight in a closet.

Frank; if Red_Rob admitted poor planning or thought and that he made a mistake, and proceeded to negotiate out boundaries (cap circle) and a mutual longterm alliance (with say a NAP-3 or NAP-5) in attempt to return you both to points where you could conceivably win the game, would you?

My cap circle is literally adjacent to Frank's cap circle. Even if we kept to our respective cap circles we would be one move away from invading each others capitals. That is untenable.

[Username17]

My cap circle is literally adjacent to Frank's cap circle. Even if we kept to our respective cap circles we would be one move away from invading each others capitals. That is untenable.

I see. The problem is you're an idiot and now we're both going to lose the game because of it.

Before you decide how big of a cordon sanitaire you think you're entitled to, please consider how big the map actually is. There are 91 provinces, and some of them are water. Your capital has six adjacent provinces, as does mine. The provinces in your capital ring are adjacent to 10 more provinces. There are seven players. If everyone claimed two provinces from their capital in all directions that would be 119 provinces, which is 28 more provinces than actually exist on the fucking map.

If you can't make at least temporary truce (if not common cause) with people who are near to you on a small map, you have no chance of winning the game on a small fucking map. On a map with 13 provinces per player, it is simply unacceptable to flip the table over if you can't figure out how to have 17 provinces to yourself. Figure out how to have a 13 province empire and then try to expand your holdings at other peoples' expense. Don't make the game zero sum on turn five, all of your opponents are not playing a zero sum game and will crush you like a bug!

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

Well, the fact I invested in a dual bless also factored into the decision to try to knock my nearest neighbour out early when I found out how close we were. Plus Tien'Chi seemed unsuited to an early war, so I was hoping for a fairly quick victory before the other nations stumbled onto us.

Perhaps I should have adjusted my expectations for a smaller map. At the very least, if we both get eaten in the melee it will make an exciting early game, and leave some room for the rest to fight in...

[Ikeren]

Look, it's turn 8 and I own three fucking provinces.

Ah. I'm not very good with time, because I'm travelling (I'm about to get on a flight presently, as a matter of fact). I seriously thought it was like turn 4 or 5 or something.

This is the third time I've played a multiplayer game of Dominions 4 and the third time I've had my opening completely fucked because some idiot decided that it would be hella fun to destroy both of our chances of victory by declaring a first year war and completely fuck the economies of both countries for the entire game.

In the first two, for confirmation, the people that attacked you both didn't win? I think I was following both of them; K won one, and...is the other finished? I can't remember...

[Zinegata]

Ok, I've just spotted Kailasa's capital and its immediate environs. And this is my only reaction to Kailasa's decision to attack TC:

Why?

Seriously, I think certain people were handed the game right then and there and it will be an uphill struggle for the rest of us.

[Username17]

Ok, I've just spotted Kailasa's capital and its immediate environs. And this is my only reaction to Kailasa's decision to attack TC:

Why?

Seriously, I think certain people were handed the game right then and there and it will be an uphill struggle for the rest of us.

It's not so bad for you. You, Arco, and Lanka all pick up about 2-3 provinces by not having to negotiate a border with me or Kailasa. I mean, obviously it's better for Formoria and Ur, who both pick up about five or six provinces each.

The thing is: yeah, it's fucking insulting. Looking at the map, there's basically no reason to go through that way. You know he decided to funnel his entire army through a choke point that has Inkpot End in it? Even if he wins the war, even if he won the war fast and clean, he'd still be out a pile of capital-only troops and commanders. There was no possible way Rob was coming out ahead in this, and no possible way he wasn't giving a huge boost to the economies of several of our neighbors.

Rob flipped the board over and shat in the dice cup on turn five. This is behavior that is legitimately worse than just turning AI and walking away.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

You, Arco, and Lanka all pick up about 2-3 provinces by not having to negotiate a border with me or Kailasa. I mean, obviously it's better for Formoria and Ur, who both pick up about five or six provinces each.

I don't quite follow this logic. There are 81 land provinces between 7 players. That makes 11.5 provinces per player. I currently control 9, and you control 3. That means there are at most 11 provinces up for grabs that wouldn't otherwise have been, so promising 20-odd to everyone else seems a little premature, particularly when there are still unclaimed indies.

Why?

I've already explained it was turn 2 when I saw Frank's capital and I made a snap decision. I'm not yet convinced it was the giant mistake people are claiming, but I guess we'll see how things play out.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I don't quite follow this logic. There are 81 land provinces between 7 players. That makes 11.5 provinces per player. I currently control 9, and you control 3. That means there are at most 11 provinces up for grabs that wouldn't otherwise have been, so promising 20-odd to everyone else seems a little premature, particularly when there are still unclaimed indies.

I think the implication is that war exhaustion leads to you being gobbled up fairly early as well.

[Zinegata]

You, Arco, and Lanka all pick up about 2-3 provinces by not having to negotiate a border with me or Kailasa. I mean, obviously it's better for Formoria and Ur, who both pick up about five or six provinces each.

I don't quite follow this logic. There are 81 land provinces between 7 players. That makes 11.5 provinces per player. I currently control 9, and you control 3. That means there are at most 11 provinces up for grabs that wouldn't otherwise have been, so promising 20-odd to everyone else seems a little premature, particularly when there are still unclaimed indies.

The issue is blocking. As Frank noted certain nations are going to get more provinces, for the simple reason that their initial board placement puts them between other nations and the Kailasa/TC grab bag. Certain nations getting 5-6 extra provinces (even if everyone else gets 2 extra) is a big deal.

===

Also, important tidbit I discovered:

Just to be fair to everyone, apparently Thrones are listed on the F9 screen by province number. So you can in fact figure out which throne is which. I've tested it on two maps and it seems to be true.

[Red_Rob]

Certain nations getting 5-6 extra provinces (even if everyone else gets 2 extra) is a big deal.

I'd argue that getting an early lead in an MP game is actually quite dangerous, as you effectively have a large target painted over your head if the rest of the players think you're heading for a win.

Also, don't you fucking hate it when the fucking move system decides all your fucking sacreds are going to sit still and get ambushed and all your fucking Divine Blessing casters get to attack the enemy?

I know I do.

[Username17]

If you move into a province and the enemy is moving the other direction, the group with more troops and commanders moving is more likely to win the push. The move system didn't kill all those Yavanas, I did.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'd argue that getting an early lead in an MP game is actually quite dangerous, as you effectively have a large target painted over your head if the rest of the players think you're heading for a win.

This is less true than it used to be, because the score graphs aren't available. Also, is it just my bad luck, or are there like no indie scouts in the EA?

But even then, your opponents need to put together a coalition to attack you, otherwise it's just a smaller power attacking a larger one. And that can be complicated by pre-coalition diplomacy, which is unpredictable because it usually occurs before anyone knows who the optimal targets are going to be.

[Username17]

Bakemono Chiefs work as scouts in the early era. Stealthy commanders certainly exist in indie provinces. But they are much rarer than in later eras.

-Username17

[Red_Rob]

If you move into a province and the enemy is moving the other direction, the group with more troops and commanders moving is more likely to win the push. The move system didn't kill all those Yavanas, I did.

-Username17

I did not know that, I thought it was a coin toss. I'm sure I read people complaining you could move-block an army with a single commander in Dom3. Well then, retract my previous comments.

Bakemono Chiefs work as scouts in the early era.

Also, Atavi Chieftains. Check forest provinces is my advice.

[K]

Blood 1 has a summonable scout that flies, but you need to do Blood.

That being said, this doesn't feel like the EA at all. I literally have nothing special in my domain at all. Does the map have preset indies?