[nWoD] Demon: the Descent

[Longes]

To be fair though, in Buddhism reincarnating as a god isn't all that great either. It's just a bathroom break in your neverending spiral of cosmic despair and misery. Much like demons are bound to suffer, gods are bound to spend their lives with whores and celestial cocaine, until they die and reincarnate back into humans.

[Username17]

Longes, you aren't making any sense. While Buddhist demons are bound to suffer, they can still take heroic actions and accomplish goals. They are not, for example, bound specifically to lose the big battle at the end. They still have the freedom to choose to be on either side of major conflicts, and they do.

Indeed, being destined to have shitty things happen to them is a whole lot like "being a protagonist." It's not even really a problem if you're a major character in a cooperative storytelling game.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

In what way is that a functional rule?

Quick Draw or Defense in general? The most logical reading of the Merit would simply be that it makes the usually instant drawing or holstering action reflexive instead, and additionally allows performing the same out of turn whenever the character's Defense applies against an attack... but even that wouldn't permit drawing and holstering in a single turn.

Jesus Christ wait. What the fuck?

The whole point of "quickdraw" is so that, in theory, you draw quicker (and more accurately) than the opponent.

But this version of Quickdraw is fucking derp stupid. Because if a gunfight breaks out and you go first and you're talent is quickdraw NOTHING FUCKING HAPPENS. Quickdraw actually *rewards* you for *NOT* going first according to your description. Which I'm not doubting, but is so fucking stupid and fails the common sense test that I can't even begin to describe how much my head hurts trying to imagine the brain damage necessary to come up with this system.

At least with Frank's interpretation if I go first and have quickdraw then I actually GET to use the fucking merit (and actually, I suspect Frank is right, or the Onyx Path writers are snorting laundry detergent thinking it's coke).

So it works like this: Fight breaks out.
1. I go first. I draw my weapon. I'm done
2. Badguy shoots
3. I finally get to shoot

Or

1. Badguy goes first, shoots at me.
2. I draw my gun and apparently dodge? Or do I have to decide to either draw or dodge?
3. I get to shoot back.

Oh wait. That doesn't work. Because you can't dodge a fucking bullet. So it's been a while since I remember this, but if defense doesn't apply to bullet attacks (only armor, which is different from your defense), does that mean quick draw is useless when you're shot at?

And who said anything about holstering weapons? If I have a shotgun on a sling, assuming any of this shit actually works, I can drop the gun and it's still... you know... right there. Because of the sling. It's why they make gun slings. But apparently according to you opening my hands and letting a weapon fall is something that simply can't be done the same round that I draw it. Because reasons.

Fucking hell this shit is bananas.

[Plague of Hats]

Also, gold paint, steel plates, and other similar things cost money and are hard for DTRPG to do on a regular basis. Part of their Kickstarter's money goes to fund proof of concept, dry runs, and leave room for mistakes.

DriveThru doesn't handle the prestige editions of books at all. They are made through a traditional print house, because they are too numerous and complex for typical PoD servicing.

[TheFlatline]

Option 1:Versatile Transformation, 1 Aether, activate Armor Plating and Glory and Terror. All of the children go running off in terror and you're left fighting whatever grownups made their Willpower roll.

Option 2:Activate Cool Heads Prevail and book it.

Option 3:All of those toddlers are mooks. Activate Merciless Gunman and kill [Dex+Firearms+Equipment+1WP] toddlers. Don't even bother rolling the Cover check because you will fail it.

Option 4:Go Loud.

1. Glory and Terror is a reflexive action that requires you to actually *do* something to demonstrate your awe-inspiring terror. And while you may argue that you can reflex off of your partial transformation, that's totally storyteller prerogative (one that I wouldn't allow, since sample demonstrations literally include dealing damage or displaying feats of strength, meaning it's a proactive demonstration of your fear aura, besides, terror wasn't on when you transformed). Meaning your 30 or so school kids still get a round to act unless your storyteller is feeling cooperative. Or you know, the kids all have like willpower 2, and can totes blow a willpower to stand their ground for a round.

Armor plating is pretty good, at basically melee 3 it looks like. But you'll still take damage from 30 school kids with an attack pool of 4 every round. While you may not get creamed on the first round, assuming you get initiative, you'll probably be creamed by round 2 or 3.

2. Magic Tea Party is not a solution for shitty math, and the bus full of school kids problem is a shitty combat/math problem. It's not meant to be solved as an encounter anyway, it's meant to illustrate that the system is fundamentally flawed. I can ALWAYS rule zero it but that doesn't solve the shitty combat system. Plus, the idea of an eternal, unstoppable demon running away from a school bus load of 1st graders is fucking priceless and is exactly the point we're trying to make.

3. Okay. You kill a maximum of 8 or so children. Then 22 of them act. On average each of them will score 1-2 successes. So you take 30 levels of damage and die. Or you have a 12 round pistol and get a critical success and leave 18 children. So you only take around 20 levels of damage on average. There might be enough of a corpse to bury in that scenario. AND that's assuming that the DM gives you the opportunity to activate the power in that fight. It's suggested that you use the down & dirty combat mode when violence is a means to an end but shouldn't be player-threatening. But the whole point is that a herd of 1st graders *is* life-threatening. Again, you're at best playing magical tea party and still getting creamed. At worst, you're just getting creamed.

4. Whatever. Combat is fucking broken when any number of 1st graders with pointy sticks can take out a supernatural immortal badass.

[Username17]

Seriously, TheFlatline, Yann Waters is making no sense at all. By his logic, you'd still be able to quickdraw while on the ground because it says:

Knocked Down Lose action this turn (if still to take), knocked prone. Can apply Defense, attack from ground at −2.

The fact is there's a list of conditions that tell you whether your Defense applies or not. They are all the things you'd expect. So if you're immobilized, your defense doesn't apply. If you're surprised your defense doesn't apply. But if you're just slowed or afraid or drugged or something, your defense still applies. That's what it refers to in the Quickdraw description, not whether you literally are subtracting it or not at any given pointfrom any particular die roll.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

I know. I like the idea that it's impossible too to draw, fire, and holster in a 2-3 second combat window, because that totally is unfeasible.

Until some dude does it 3 times a second:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqABkG1JpHM

Edit: PS: That guy is a mortal, so what, Firearms 5 Dex 5? (at least, manual dex? Dude probably isn't very svelte on his feet with that beer belly).

Fuck this system sucks balls.

[The Yann Waters]

So it's been a while since I remember this, but if defense doesn't apply to bullet attacks (only armor, which is different from your defense), does that mean quick draw is useless when you're shot at?

Defense doesn't apply against firearms, yes, except possibly at very close range. Going by that, Quick Draw wouldn't normally provide the same opportunity to draw a weapon out of turn, but the distance between the opponents might make that a bit irrelevant anyway.

So regardless of who shoots first, in a firefight your own turn might proceed like this:

1. Draw your gun if it's not out already. Without Quick Draw, this would use up your one instant action for the turn, leaving no possibility of attacking, but if it's made reflexive, that leaves the instant free for another action.

2. Fire your gun as the instant action, rolling Dexterity + Firearms (adjusted by whatever situational modifiers might be in effect) and taking the gun's damage bonus as well as any armor the target might be wearing into account when calculating the results.

3. There is no 3.

While weapons may be dropped reflexively, slinging them would take the instant action for the turn. Of course, in the first case they won't remain conveniently close at hand to Quick Draw again and must be retrieved later.

Seriously, TheFlatline, Yann Waters is making no sense at all. By his logic, you'd still be able to quickdraw while on the ground because it says:

Knocked Down Lose action this turn (if still to take), knocked prone. Can apply Defense, attack from ground at −2.

The fact is there's a list of conditions that tell you whether your Defense applies or not. They are all the things you'd expect. So if you're immobilized, your defense doesn't apply. If you're surprised your defense doesn't apply. But if you're just slowed or afraid or drugged or something, your defense still applies. That's what it refers to in the Quickdraw description, not whether you literally are subtracting it or not at any given point from any particular die roll.

More accurately, there's a list of conditions which clarify whether you can apply Defense against incoming attacks, not whether Defense applies in some general sense. That's true of even being immobilized: as said before, Defense only ever applies to individual actions in the rules. But if a character "can apply Defense, attack from ground at -2", then obviously Quick Draw is still possible (and quite frankly there's nothing inconceivable about pulling that off while lying down).

[Omegonthesane]

So it's been a while since I remember this, but if defense doesn't apply to bullet attacks (only armor, which is different from your defense), does that mean quick draw is useless when you're shot at?

Defense doesn't apply against firearms, yes, except possibly at very close range. Going by that, Quick Draw wouldn't normally provide the same opportunity to draw a weapon out of turn, but the distance between the opponents might make that a bit irrelevant anyway.

So regardless of who shoots first, in a firefight your own turn might proceed like this:

1. Draw your gun if it's not out already. Without Quick Draw, this would use up your one instant action for the turn, leaving no possibility of attacking, but if it's made reflexive, that leaves the instant free for another action.

2. Fire your gun as the instant action, rolling Dexterity + Firearms (adjusted by whatever situational modifiers might be in effect) and taking the gun's damage bonus as well as any armor the target might be wearing into account when calculating the results.

3. There is no 3.

While weapons may be dropped reflexively, slinging them would take the instant action for the turn. Of course, in the first case they won't remain conveniently close at hand to Quick Draw again and must be retrieved later.

Congratulations on bringing the Brace of Pistols into a new age. Despite that being a fucktarded tactic in the age of semi-autos.

You also completely avoided the description of the slinged shotgun. The example was in order:
1) ENTER COMBAT with a shotgun hanging off of your body by a sling.
2) QUICK DRAW the Shotgun hanging from you by a sling as a Not An Action.
3) FIRE the Shotgun you have now QUICK DRAWN without taking the initiative penalty. Or give someone a blowjob for all I care, for all I know nWoD lets you do that in a combat round.
3) DROP the Shotgun, which stops short of the ground because it is still attached to you by a sling, and instead of becoming "on the ground" it switches back to "hanging off of your body by a sling".
4) Repeat until your customer orgasms enemy dies.

[The Yann Waters]

You also completely avoided the description of the slinged shotgun.

The same rule applies to both holstering and slinging weapons: by the book, that's an instant action. Even if that's arguably meant for, say, hoisting a rifle on your back instead of using more specialized combat gear, I'd nevertheless rule that simply having the weapon out of your hands but still in the way doesn't qualify for a significant change in Initiative. Effectively, you'd still be using it.

[ErichZahn]

You're being dumb here.

I'm a dude with Quick-Draw and Shoot First. All other stats abstracted.

1.Badguy wins initiative by more than my Firearms, despite the penalty for carrying a weapon. He shoots at me, I reflexively drop on my ass if it's useful in any way.
2.It's my turn now. Nobody is shooting me because it's my fucking turn, so I have Defense. My dude pulls, is bumped up initiative by his Firearms dots. I do whatever, he does whatever.
3.My Initiative+Firearms is penalized by the weapon penalty, but Shoot First requires Firearms 2 so I'm not knocked below my normal Initiative.

or

1.Badguy wins initiative by less than my Firearms. I Quick Draw, and thanks to Shoot First, I shoot first.
2.He does whatever the fuck he's doing now.
3.My Initiative+Firearms is penalized by the weapon penalty, but Shoot First requires Firearms 2 so I'm not knocked below my normal Initiative.

[ErichZahn]

4. Whatever. Combat is fucking broken when any number of 1st graders with pointy sticks can take out a supernatural immortal badass.

The average dice-pool for an adult human is 3. Please provide stats that model the average first grader.

[sabs]

EricZhan,
your first example is pants on head retarded.
your second example is missing step 2.5 where you holster your weapon.
Which changes to step 3 of, My initiative+firearm suffers no penalty.

[The Yann Waters]

3.My Initiative+Firearms is penalized by the weapon penalty, but Shoot First requires Firearms 2 so I'm not knocked below my normal Initiative.

Even with Shoot First, though, Firearms 2 wouldn't be enough to cancel out entirely the Initiative penalty from wielding a heavy firearm: you'd need at least Firearms 4 to do that with a shotgun, for example. (Also, dropping prone would forfeit your instant action for the turn, but that's admittedly not much of a concern.)

[Prak]

[TheFlatline]

So it's been a while since I remember this, but if defense doesn't apply to bullet attacks (only armor, which is different from your defense), does that mean quick draw is useless when you're shot at?

Defense doesn't apply against firearms, yes, except possibly at very close range. Going by that, Quick Draw wouldn't normally provide the same opportunity to draw a weapon out of turn, but the distance between the opponents might make that a bit irrelevant anyway.

So regardless of who shoots first, in a firefight your own turn might proceed like this:

1. Draw your gun if it's not out already. Without Quick Draw, this would use up your one instant action for the turn, leaving no possibility of attacking, but if it's made reflexive, that leaves the instant free for another action.

2. Fire your gun as the instant action, rolling Dexterity + Firearms (adjusted by whatever situational modifiers might be in effect) and taking the gun's damage bonus as well as any armor the target might be wearing into account when calculating the results.

3. There is no 3.

While weapons may be dropped reflexively, slinging them would take the instant action for the turn. Of course, in the first case they won't remain conveniently close at hand to Quick Draw again and must be retrieved later.

So you're admitting that quick draw is fucking useless and a waste of points.

Either that or you're gently implying that you can use it before someone shoots you. Which was exactly the opposite of what you originally were arguing.

Either way, your initial argument was actually wrong.

This conversation is over.

[TheFlatline]

4. Whatever. Combat is fucking broken when any number of 1st graders with pointy sticks can take out a supernatural immortal badass.

The average dice-pool for an adult human is 3. Please provide stats that model the average first grader.

2 dice: 1 die str 1 die melee (pointed stick) plus all out attack, +2 dice on any attack with melee forsaking defense.

[The Yann Waters]

So you're admitting that quick draw is fucking useless and a waste of points.

Either that or you're gently implying that you can use it before someone shoots you. Which was exactly the opposite of what you originally were arguing.

Either way, your initial argument was actually wrong.

This conversation is over.

Quick Draw lets you get a weapon out as a reflexive reaction to an attack so that you don't need to spend an instant action on it, perhaps before an opponent manages to land a blow on you, perhaps not, depending on the circumstances and Initiative. That's its whole point, barring potential synergy with other Merits like that Firefight Fighting Style. What it doesn't cause is "drawing and sheathing weapons every attack in order to go faster" as initially claimed.

Granted, I focused too much on the reactive aspect at first.

[ErichZahn]

Where are you getting "reflexive reaction" from?

reflexive action: An instinctual task that takes no
appreciable time, such as reacting to surprise or noticing
something out of the corner of your eye. Performing a reflexive
action does not prevent a character from performing
another action within a turn.

Choose a Specialty in Weaponry or Firearms when you purchase this Merit. Your character has trained enough in that weapon or style that pulling the weapon is her first reflex. Drawing or holstering that weapon is considered a reflexive action, and can be done any time her Defense applies.

It's a reflexive action, and you can take that reflexive action any time Defense applies. So either I can reflexively draw/holster infinite times off camera when it's not my turn or the ST tells me to shut up and wait my turn.

[The Yann Waters]

It's a reflexive action, and you can take that reflexive action any time Defense applies. So either I can reflexively draw/holster infinite times off camera when it's not my turn or the ST tells me to shut up and wait my turn.

That's the interpretation I disagree with. If the GM happens to be in a silly mood, it'd mean there's no need to even fight because your character can just scare away the opponent by breaking the sound barrier with the speed of drawing and holstering a gun countless times per second.

As I read Quick Draw, the Merit makes drawing and holstering, usually an instant action, reflexive instead, but doesn't permit that action to be taken any more often than usually on your own turn. Additionally (hence the comma), it allows the option of doing the same whenever the character's Defense applies to an attack (hence the reaction).

As mentioned a few times before, that's the common usage for "Defense applies" in the rules. Certainly characters may be in a situation where they can't apply Defense against some or all attacks, or they may lose some or all of the value, but at any given time Defense could apply to one action and not to another. It's not a general state of being in itself.

[TheFlatline]

Where are you getting "reflexive reaction" from?

reflexive action: An instinctual task that takes no
appreciable time, such as reacting to surprise or noticing
something out of the corner of your eye. Performing a reflexive
action does not prevent a character from performing
another action within a turn.

Choose a Specialty in Weaponry or Firearms when you purchase this Merit. Your character has trained enough in that weapon or style that pulling the weapon is her first reflex. Drawing or holstering that weapon is considered a reflexive action, and can be done any time her Defense applies.

It's a reflexive action, and you can take that reflexive action any time Defense applies. So either I can reflexively draw/holster infinite times off camera when it's not my turn or the ST tells me to shut up and wait my turn.

See that makes sense. You can draw and shoot on the same turn. Just like every other fucking quick draw merit/feat/ability in the entire pantheon of RPGs. I don't have to wait until I'm attacked. If combat breaks out and I go first I get to take a reflexive action to draw and then I can fire. According to the combat rules, if at that point I have a gun in my hand my init takes a penalty *next* turn. So if I reflex, draw, shoot, drop my gun, I have nothing in my hands at the end of my turn and my init stays high Rules As Written. So a brace of flintlocks is totally a better choice than say a revolver.

Yann, you spent 2 pages defending an interpretation that you admit is wrong. You are the poster boy for what's wrong with the Onyx Path rules overhaul.

[TheFlatline]

And as for having a problem with the sling and not being able to draw/ready from a tactical sling, the whole point is that the weapon is readily available if you drop it.



You're telling me that drawing from a concealed holster, say in the small of your back, is totally doable, but readying your weapon from the above pose is unreasonable?

[The Yann Waters]

You're telling me that drawing from a concealed holster, say in the small of your back, is totally doable, but readying your weapon from the above pose is unreasonable?

No, what I'm saying is that keeping your weapon ready in that position shouldn't prevent the Initiative penalty at all, because it's based on how much readied equipment gets in the way of the character's movement, not what gear is actively used to attack. Some glib "look ma, no hands" excuse would be a poor justification for circumventing that. As the rules put it, holding on to a shotgun will still impose the penalty even if you spend your turn kicking at an opponent.

Personally, I'd never allow an unlimited series of reflexive actions like that "infinite lightspeed gunslinger" routine. And if the complaint is that allowing it leads to a ridiculous degree of constant Initiative manipulation, then why would you ever go with that interpretation?

[Prak]

Out of curiosity... don't know if this is a thing in NWoD, but what do you think a shotgun enchanted to float around you and fire on your command should do to your initiative?

[TheFlatline]

You're telling me that drawing from a concealed holster, say in the small of your back, is totally doable, but readying your weapon from the above pose is unreasonable?

No, what I'm saying is that keeping your weapon ready in that position shouldn't prevent the Initiative penalty at all, because it's based on how much readied equipment gets in the way of the character's movement, not what gear is actively used to attack. Some glib "look ma, no hands" excuse would be a poor justification for circumventing that. As the rules put it, holding on to a shotgun will still impose the penalty even if you spend your turn kicking at an opponent.

Personally, I'd never allow an unlimited series of reflexive actions like that "infinite lightspeed gunslinger" routine. And if the complaint is that allowing it leads to a ridiculous degree of constant Initiative manipulation, then why would you ever go with that interpretation?

*applies head to desk*

THE RULES ARE FLAWED AS WRITTEN.

I can magic tea party all day long and not pay 60 dollars for a copy of Demon.

I'm done. You're too stupid to understand what I'm talking about.