D&DNext: Playtest Review

[Voss]

Yep. They just treated the 1d12 result as 6 every time. Though the min would be 2, not 3.

[infected slut princess]

I'm going to have to fully agree here..

"haha! You look puny and have a dagger. I'm drunk. I'm immune to getting stabbed!"

I think they're doing the HP damage = annoying but non-threatening flesh wounds interpretation, this drug-induced pain resistance would mitigate it.

It's a better interpretation than letting high level characters survive having a swords rammed through their chests multiple times

Drug-induced pain resistance is mechanically arbitrary in an HP system where "pain" doesn't do anything, because of critical existence failure. i.e. you are perfectly fine until you are dead. Because mechanically speaking, in such an HP system, ALL your wounds except for the final, fatal attack, are just "annoying but nonthreatening flesh wounds" that don't _do_ anything other than provide color to descriptions.

So I just totally disagree with you about this. I LIKE hit points being about real physical damage. It's awesome and epic when people are getting chewed up by dragons, hit with geysers of acid, dropped off 1000 foot cliffs, impaled by a dozen spears, or rammed through the chest multiple times by giant swords... and not only do they LIVE -- they are still at 100% awesomeness due to critical existence failure. To fall off a thousand foot cliff and take a bit less damage because you had 10 tequila shots before the fight is FUCKING DUMB. That said, this is just my preference and I do not think i can make a rational argument in its favor.

[ishy]

So I tried looking at how the lvl 1 fighter was supposed to kill a minotaur,
The default fighter has a 1d12 dmg weapon and does 2d6 + 7 dmg (yeah whatever)
On a crit does max damage, so 12 +7 = 19.
I can't find the rules for a charge and a minotaur has 132 hp.
Unless charging does 10x your dmg (in case you don't crit) I'm not seeing it.

- Edit:
Better hope your pregen fighter also finds some light armour, since a chain shirt is cheaper and better for you than the heavy armour you are wearing

equipment & treasure
souvenir of previous campaign (weapon taken from enemy, scar, or
similar), bone dice.

[TheFlatline]

This already sounds like total shit. DR from being drunk? That's fucking stupid.

Please provide more information when you can.

I'm going to have to fully agree here..

"haha! You look puny and have a dagger. I'm drunk. I'm immune to getting stabbed!"

I think they're doing the HP damage = annoying but non-threatening flesh wounds interpretation, this drug-induced pain resistance would mitigate it.

It's a better interpretation than letting high level characters survive having a swords rammed through their chests multiple times

Okay... so that means that getting plastered drunk makes you harder to stab in the chest.

We're still failing in epic proportions.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I honestly don't see how a playtest is supposed to help. I mean, there is NOTHING to these rules. The rules that are there can be mathhammered in a week with their current staff, tops, if they really cared.

Were they trying to haphazardly leech from the cool and buzz of Pathfinder's playtest and just thought that 'playtest' would be enough to hype their product? Bitch, Pathfinder -- while still full of stupid and coasting off of 3.5E -- at least had a finished ruleset. This isn't even a fucking pamphlet. Yes, really, if you copypasta'd everything onto one document then made the size and average whitespace the standard it was for a 3E D&D product it wouldn't even be 40 pages. That's not even the fourth of the size of the 3E player's handbook.

This. IS. PATHETIC.

You know, part of me hopes that Hasbro calls up Mearls in three months and tells him that he has until December to release his finished product. If they're working at the rate they're going now, they won't even be a fifth of the way finished. I'd love to see the viral YouTube video from an intern of him pissing his pants after getting a Friday call from Hasbro execs.

Yes, I'm still really really cheesed off by the Dungeon Master's Pamphlet. Why do you ask?

[Prak]

This already sounds like total shit. DR from being drunk? That's fucking stupid.

Please provide more information when you can.

I'm going to have to fully agree here..

"haha! You look puny and have a dagger. I'm drunk. I'm immune to getting stabbed!"

The drawback is that you suffer disadvantage on skill checks and attack rolls. Now, Wizards don't actually make skill checks or attack rolls in combat, because their spells auto-hit and all their skills are non-combat. So Wizards can and should simply go into all battles drunk off their ass.

Well I can certainly think of worse inspirations for D&D than Pratchett...

[TheFlatline]

So apparently WOTC's server is being obliterated by the traffic. Anyone wanna private message me a link to where I can get this stupid packet and read it for myself?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So apparently WOTC's server is being obliterated by the traffic. Anyone wanna private message me a link to where I can get this stupid packet and read it for myself?

FAIL UPON FAIL.

Well, at least the Internet will know what we've been saying on TGD for years: giving Mearls and Cordell the D&D line is like leaving your pecker in the hands of Loretta Bobbitt after peeing on her cat.

[Voss]

Playtests are the current fad. It gives community the illusion of involvement and the illusion of (some) control, and gives the developers an easy scapegoat if the product bombs. And as much as developers like to scream that optimizers are terrible people who ruin games, they know damn well that the CharOp hordes can analyze shit a hell of a lot better than a half-dozen guys in house. Well, assuming theycan block out the hysterical ranting and get to meaningful data.

As for the length, to be fair this is the starting point, and they claim they're going to add pieces later. That actually isn't an unreasonable plan. Discrete chunks lets people get a handle on the basics, and lets the team handle changes to the basic before moving on to other areas. Manageable loads for everyone makes a lot more sense than jumping right into 300 pages of rules.

It even has a small chance of producing more useful feedback than the PF playtest did, because there isn't a lot of extraneous information to hide behind- there literally isn't anyway to hide the fact that hide is crap, wizard spells are pretty awful and rogues don't get anything meaningful.

Of course, this assumes that this is a legitimate playtest and they won't pull a 'its all about what you feel inside and stuff' like Paizo did.

[TheFlatline]

So apparently WOTC's server is being obliterated by the traffic. Anyone wanna private message me a link to where I can get this stupid packet and read it for myself?

FAIL UPON FAIL.

Well, at least the Internet will know what we've been saying on TGD for years: giving Mearls and Cordell the D&D line is like leaving your pecker in the hands of Loretta Bobbitt after peeing on her cat.

I don't expect Mearls to be in charge of their IT department. The content sounds pretty painful, but I won't fry him because apparently nobody's in IT apparently has ever, in their life, heard of a queue system.

[ishy]

So apparently WOTC's server is being obliterated by the traffic. Anyone wanna private message me a link to where I can get this stupid packet and read it for myself?

The link Sake posted :
https://www.rapidshare.com/#%21download ... zip%7c5738
works for me.

The cleric of Moradin has an AC of 18. Wears +15 armour, has a heavy shield +2, and a dex of -1. That makes for 16 AC, where is the other 2 coming from?
Also has a weapon that does 1d8 dmg that does 1d10 damage.

I know wotc is terrible at creating example chars, but seriously?

[Lago PARANOIA]

I meant more that if the servers are crashing, probably a lot of people are scrambling to download the product and get a first-hand whiff of the fail. Considering that wizards (though perhaps not D&D) has daily traffic in the tens of thousands, this is a good portent.

[Voss]

I'm surprised you feel that way, to be honest. It means tens of thousands people+ actually want 5th edition.

[TheFlatline]

So apparently WOTC's server is being obliterated by the traffic. Anyone wanna private message me a link to where I can get this stupid packet and read it for myself?

The link Sake posted :
https://www.rapidshare.com/#%21download ... zip%7c5738
works for me.

The cleric of Moradin has an AC of 18. Wears +15 armour, has a heavy shield +2, and a dex of -1. That makes for 16 AC, where is the other 2 coming from?
Also has a weapon that does 1d8 dmg that does 1d10 damage.

I know wotc is terrible at creating example chars, but seriously?

Looks like Rapidshare already took it down.

[ishy]

Looks like Rapidshare already took it down.

It still works fine here, if you want me to upload it some place, give a link.

Reading through their sample encounter:

Kobolds (8, XP 75): AC 14; hp 2 each; spear +0
(1d8 – 2) or dagger +2 (1d4 + 2)

Kobolds in Bestiary:

Melee Attack
spear +0
(1d8 – 2 piercing)
Ranged Attack
dagger +1
(1d4 – 2 piercing)

Can't they get anything right? I'm done with this.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm surprised you feel that way, to be honest. It means tens of thousands people+ actually want 5th edition.

Slow down. It means that people are excited at the idea of 5th Edition. Which they should -- I mean, it's fucking D&D and a chance to rise from the ashes like a Phoenix. But if the underlying product sucks and the exposure to the playtest product is low, then fewer people will realize that it's a shit bomb before the fated hour. As far as taking down Mearls and minimizing damage to the hobby goes, high early exposure is just what the doctor ordered.

... unless the playerbase thinks that it's genius. But let's not think about that. It sickens me.

[TheFlatline]

Looks like Rapidshare already took it down.

It still works fine here, if you want me to upload it some place, give a link.

The link must be badly formatted then.

I think I give up for now. I was mildly interested but I've f*cked around for 30 minutes trying to get the damn thing and it's not worth my time to invest any more than that.

Some people have been clicking on the stupid download link for 8 hours with no luck and are whining about it in that linked WOTC thread. I can't imagine what kind of life it must be to desperately click on a dead link for 8 hours hoping against hope to get a glimpse of the new D&D... where wizards are drunk, fighters are useless, and rogues are redundant.

[Voss]

... unless the playerbase thinks that it's genius. But let's not think about that. It sickens me.

The lessons of history suggest that people will happily eat a plate of shit if it is served up the right way. If they sell it like fourth edition, it will probably fail. But if they sell it like Magic... well, that branch of WotC has gotten very good at selling people shit, then turning around and telling people that their current shit is no good, so they have to buy extra-fresh shit.

And, well, Pathfinder

[Username17]

Nitpicking the sample numbers for not coming out correctly is too easy, too flippant. Similarly, I think lambasting them for having an incredibly difficult to read character sheet for the playtest is also cheating. Yes, they do put the skills you get from Background on page 1 and the skills you get from your class on page 2, meaning that you have to flip pages to figure out whether one of your skills applies or not. But that's a typesetting issue on a specifically not-final-product-product. So, whatever.

I'm more interested in how the DM Guidelines tell you that you shouldn't bother making players roll the dice if the DC is 10 or less when the Rogue's supposed main class feature is that they can take 10 on tests. I mean seriously, every single thing Rogues can do is completely undermined by the rules of what normal people can do without being a Rogue. It's amazing.

I actually like the completely tone deaf naming conventions on absolutely everything in the whole game. It's amazing. The Rogue gets an ability called "Knack", it doesn't actually make you good or consistent at anything, it lets you declare Advantage on two skill tests a day. It's actually a Jack of all Trades ability, and it's called "knack". Or how you walk and then hustle during your turn to take a double move. Or how you do walking jumps. Or how bright light is called normal light. Or how naturally stealthy literally doesn't do anything at all, and what it's supposed to do is make you blend into crowds. If only there were some way of describing this "blending in" or "shadowing".

It seriously is like everything has a placeholder name that was suggested by someone in the office sarcastically and then that went into the playtest as-is. It's a trolling masterpiece.

-Username17

[Prak]

The playtest rogue is a commoner who said "fuck this, I'm gonna go steal shit."

wtf?

[infected slut princess]

OMG, Lago wasn't joking about how fucking horrible the DM Guidelines document is... No wonder Mearls is saying 5e will support "all styles of play!" -- that's because the rules are TOTAL FUCKING BULLSHIT where sucking off your DM is the path to power.

Read this:

ENGAGING THE PLAYERS

As a DM, you could easily memorize these guildelines, apply them flawlessly, and still miss out on the point of D&D. Unlike other games, D&D is a flexible set of guidelines, not a rigid set of rules.

Uh oh.

More important, you want the players to become fully engaged in the game. Reward inventive players who look beyond game options to describe their players' actions. Roleplaying games stand out from other types of game because they allow this type of creativity. Encourage it whenever you can.

"Look beyond game options" eh...

The easiest way to do so is to make imaginative solutions the easiest path to success for adventurers.

"Imaginative solutions" = solutions that fellate the DM.

Checks: When the character makes a check, invite him or her [NOTE: ugh] to describe the character's action. If the character makes clever use of the situation in the description, consider either granting an automatic success or advantage on the check.

If I tickle the DM's cock REAL good, then I can automatically succeed when I would otherwise be required to make a successful roll!

TAKE THAT "ROLLPLAYERS" -- ROLLING DICE IS FOR LOSERS. 5E IS ALL ABOUT ROLEPALY BITCH

Contests: In a contest, an ingenious description that points to a key advantage that a character might gain could lead you to grant the character advantage on the check.

Oh good, I am GREAT at coming up with "ingenious descriptions" so I am going to be more powerful in this game. Did I tell you that while I give my description, one of my hands is under the table jerking off the DM?

Attacks and Saving Throws: A colorful description is nice for attacks and saving throws, but should rarely be the avenue to gaining a concrete game benefit, as it is too easy to abuse such an approach. You might have players endlessly describing how they resist a mind flayer's mind blast or trying to narrate every detail of a sword blow. That said, if you feel the situation warrants it, use advantage to grant a character a well-earned edge.

Who needs character optimization when the DM will be subject to my amazing oral sex abilities? I WILL BE SO POWERFUL. Does what they said about checks apply here too, so I can AUTO-HIT EVERYONE because my descriptions are so awesome. I bet that Judging Eagle guy is going to LOVE 5e because he can describe a templar tuck and get bonus to attack.

Disadvantage: Not every idea is a good one. A character might try to win the prince's favor by bragging about all the bandits he slew, not realizing that the prince is an avowed pacifist. If an idea backfires on a player, apply disadvantage to the check or attack.

FOrtunately I will blow the DM so well he will never give me Disadvantage. I feel bad for that other player. You know, the one who does not blow the DM quite as well.

[K]

This already sounds like total shit. DR from being drunk? That's fucking stupid.

Please provide more information when you can.

I'm going to have to fully agree here..

"haha! You look puny and have a dagger. I'm drunk. I'm immune to getting stabbed!"

The drawback is that you suffer disadvantage on skill checks and attack rolls. Now, Wizards don't actually make skill checks or attack rolls in combat, because their spells auto-hit and all their skills are non-combat. So Wizards can and should simply go into all battles drunk off their ass.

However, Wizard spells in the book are essentially useless. You start with Burning Hands (which does damage you wouldn't wipe your ass with even at first level) and Sleep (which reduces the movement rate of enemies until they take any damage). As you go up in level, you gain Grease: which is a save vs. DC 13 or fall down, but falling down only costs you one square of movement instead of a move action so no one cares. Charm Person charms people, but all that does is give you advantage on social tests and gives you personal sanctuary against them, and they remember it happened afterward. The spells are just awful.

So the 5e Wizard is, unless and until they get some expansion spells that aren't ass, a write-off.

The good spells are actually the non-Vancian, at-will, and totally spammable "minor spells" (cantrips, basically).

Ray of Frost drops a fool's speed to 0 on a successful ranged attack roll (100 range) and it does an insultingly small amount of damage, but you can cast it every round and let archers plink down melee enemies who can't close more than half the time.

Other spells are a little more subtle. Grease drops a person to prone, and being prone means that all attacks on them gain advantage. Sure, on their turn they get up super easy (and get to make the falling down check again when they try to leave the Greased area), but the utility of the spell is to give everyone melee attack Advantage until the monster gets back up. Ready the spell and use it to interrupt movement and it gets even better.

Sleep is half a no-save effect that halves movement on a bunch of creatures in the AoE and half of a weak sleep effect for mooks or heavily wounded monsters that can be saved against.

Arc Lightning is decent damage at very good range and also requires a ranged attack roll.

The only thing I don't understand is why the sample Wizard uses Shocking Grasp. Magic Missile is clearly superior even though it does half damage because it never misses, scales somewhat, and has a great range.

[ishy]

Nitpicking the sample numbers for not coming out correctly is too easy, too flippant.

-Username17

Guess my expectations were just a tad higher, than for example pretty much every weapon attack listing the wrong damage.

[Seerow]

Looks like Rapidshare already took it down.

It still works fine here, if you want me to upload it some place, give a link.

I'd appreciate that. Maybe to megaupload or something?


I got my email about 3 hours after they made the post saying they were fixing the bad link problem, and was still sent a bad link.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Seriously, ROLLED HIT POINTS? In a game that has even less hit point scaling than 2E D&D?

I thought we could pretty much all agree that rolled hit points, while not the worst idea ever, is something that no one can support outside of appeal to tradition. If I look hard enough I can find fans for racial level limits or 3d6 in order or even fucking dual-classing, but ROLLED HIT POINTS?