angelfromanotherpin at [unixtime wrote:1204835397[/unixtime]]I think the confusion is based on one person assuming effects time out during the caster's upkeep, and another person assuming effects time out on the target's upkeep.
Hmmmmm it might be exactly that. But I'm to tired to explain further. We'll untangle this confusion later unless someone can sort out this confusion ATM.
Is this the thread for discussing usage limitations on abilities?
Looking just within an encounter (I'll worry about the day later) I see:
Per Encounter:
We can make everoyne have these if we want, and have mechanics based on them. If we don't want them used up right away, make them more powerful if set up properly.
Pro: Dead Simple; Easily designed and justified
Con: If you always open with them, boring. Fights get lame after your abilities are gone.
Logical for: Almost everyone, especially biological attacks of monsters and magical abilities of players.
After round X
User in condition X
Target in condition X
Until Recharged
Exclusive (flying OR invisible, not both)
Until Negated
This is the category I think I may have invented, that I'd like to push for. Some abilities might work until your opponents take some action to prevent them.
Ring of Blades gives you a damaging aura until someone sunders the swords. Son of Sun is a floating ball of fire that lets you cast Fireballs until somone hits it with an ice attack. Elven War Cry lets you do ranged area damage until someone kills your men. Phantasmal Mount lets you Air Walk until someone shoots your horse. Vampire Glare lets you hypnotize until someone spends a turn waving a cross at you. Heck, Longsword lets you make melee attacks until someone disarms you.
Until Negated attacks would be hard to design and probably few in number, but automatically add tactical options. Plus, by being sometimes available late and sometimes not, they make fights more different from one another. Some, like Elven War Cry, may be essentially 1/encounter powers. Others may be harder ot disable.
Their effect on battle length is complicated. Offensive ones, especially powerful ones, make fights go fast if uncounterable or uncountered. If countered, they make fights last longer, since time is spent reducing offense.
I think they're good abilities to give Bosses, especially if defensive -- they give a feeling of "wearing down" that makes the boss inherently longer to fight. By contrast, in the player's hands, they can make short wor of wild beasts that lack the tactical versatility to negate them.
Lots of things, from early firearms to poisonous spits work extremely well as per-encounter abilities from a flavor standpoint. Unfortunately, as you noted this can lead to "4e syndrome" where everyone shoots their wad at the start of the battle and then everyone has to sit back using their "weak" abilities time and time again. Having that as the primary or exclusive ability usuage limit is not acceptable.
In general, I think I prefer finishing moves to have prerequisites like "opponent stunned" or whatever. Having abilities of greater power which require other abilities to have been used successfully before they can be used seems like a good way to get people to use various different options in combat. I worry about the possibility of creating a Waltz effect (1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, etc...) where people use the same series of moves over and over again. Hopefully giving enemies variant defenses and immunities can alleviate that.
As for durations, I currently favor every ability having an end point rather than a duration counter. That is, there will be The Corners of the Day (Noon, Sunset, Midnight, and Dawn) and effects will end at a specific one of them or simly the next one that comes around. Shorter duration effects will either end at the end of the next turn or have a chance to end at the end of each turn. I never want to keep track of whether something has lasted for 11 rounds of 13 rounds again in my whole life.
So active defenses result in semi-random optimal strategies and get rid of The Endless Waltz?
sounds good. I'm happy with just about anything that kills a pure strategy Nash equilibrium.
IMO the simplest way to do this is Bushido Blade style stances / rock paper scissors: divide all moves into the three categories. Unfortunately that probably doesn't have much synergy with the flavor or any of the specific mechanics. And you want every player to have a fairly well-rounded distribution among the three.
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Having a Waltz effect might not actually be that bad, depending on how tough your opponent is. You might have a relatively strong attack that doesn't lead up to anything special, which makes it ideal for fighting imps. Meanwhile, a three or four deep combo is ideal for boss fights.
And with the very likely defense/immunity variation, I think this gives enough variation in attack strategies to suffice for gameplay. The important part is to not let a particular finishing move be all-encompassing, such that you don't need any other.
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FrankTrollman wrote:That is, there will be The Corners of the Day (Noon, Sunset, Midnight, and Dawn) and effects will end at a specific one of them or simly the next one that comes around.
While I wouldn't use it myself some people do prefer the Waltz combos.
I'd like something with lockdowns as constant use and area controls as per-encounter, being a spellcaster fanatic.
Multiple options should be provided for varied archetypes so that players can use the pace at their own preference, and change it if they don't like it later.
I'd like a charge mechanic like in Dynasty Warriors. Do your regular things and then when your 'bar is filled' you unleash hell when oppropriate, and start over again.
If I recall correctly, the problem with charge bars was that one would save it up for the BBEG and blow that wad. But I see no problem with that, since everyone would be doing it. Including the BBEG, charged and waiting.
So while the 4e "You crapped out. All you have left are shitty at-will powers." situation doesn't seem good to most, there are players that would for whatever reason prefer it, and the mechanic should be left in for them.
It also works well for NPC foes with low complexity needed.
If Finishing Moves have requirements, then you can have the Alien Mother rip Bishop in half and still have swashbuckling combat matter. That is, having your foe be sufficiently unaware (like asleep, or merely lower level and failing a Perception check like Bishop), then you can use a finishing move which has substantial chance of ending things right there. Otherwise you have to batter them down.
A possibility is a combat advantage number. If it gets different enough, you can tear people in half. That way Sauron can walk around killing things with his attacks, but he has to trade blows if he fights Gandalf.
An idea that occured to me:
It makes things interesting if there are external triggers to use moves, such as the target needing to be in a particular situation, or debuffed, or whatever. For one thing, it means the best strategy isn't simply a predefined action cycle.
But only having external triggers limits the strategy somewhat. If you always need have X condition before using your Omega Strike, then strategy pretty much boils down to setting up X condition, then using it immediately before the condition is gone.
So, what about a compound approach? You get abilties which are normally expended, but under the right conditions can be done for free.
So for instance, maybe you have a manuever like "Impaling Strike", and the free-lunch condition is the target being prone. But your foe isn't currently prone, so you have a choice - do Impaling Strike now, to try for a fast victory, or wait until you can use it for free, which might not happen?
Last edited by Ice9 on Fri May 02, 2008 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Or like in Dragonball Z where the condition for Goku's BBEG-Slaughtering Glowing Screaming Gut Punch is one of his sons being killed. Or Krillin, the ragebait, a guy with the sole purpose by the end of DBZ was to get maimed just to set off Goku's rage.
I see that kind of "revenge" tactic being set up, which is fine by me since it's (reductionistically) just an exchange of resources.
So far we have these conditions:
Unaware
Immobile
Revenge
Debuffed (specific, maybe a 2 hit combo)
Prone
