Mutants and Masterminds d20 2nd Edition Thoughts

[virgil]

For most min-maxed character, it's pretty much impossible to come up with such without it being unfair. The move-by attack feat technique, while useful, is still vulnerable to readied actions or the opponent just hiding. If we ignore that unfair part, and not touch mimic/boost/duplication/etc, I can think of several simple builds...

Bathroom Sniper
Blast 10
*Extra: Penetrating, Range - Perception
*Flaw: Action - Full
*Power Feats: Indirect 3, Incurable, Subtle 2, Affects Incorporeal, Dimensional 3
Tactile ESP 20
*Extra: Duration - Sustained
*Flaw: Action x 2 - Full
*Power Feat: Dimensional 3, Subtle 2
Quickness 15
*Flaw: One task - Search
Super Senses 12
*X-Ray (gold), Five-fold Extended, Acute Tactile Blindsight)
*Flaw: Durationx2 - Sustained
*Power Feats: Affects Incorporeal
Total Cost: 54pp

Boxers of the Inviolate(Device 25, Hard to Lose)
Enhanced Skill (Concentration) - 15 ranks
Immunity 217
*Aging, Interaction Skills, Sleep, Fortitude, Reflex, Will, lethal/non-lethal energy/physical damage
*Flaw: Duration - Sustained
Power Feat: Restricted 2
Total Cost: 92pp

BFG-9000, Silent Cricket Edition(Device 22, Easy to Lose)
Disintegrate 8
*Extra: Autofire x3
*Power Feat: Accurate 5, Affects Incorporeal, Improved Range, Indirect 3, Precise, Subtle 2
Enhanced Feats: All-out Attack, Improved Aim, Sneak Attack, Improved Critical 10
Shield 5
Super Strength 20
*Flaw: No increase in lifting capacity
Power Feat: Restricted 2
Total Cost: 66pp

Writer/Eraser
Feat: Lucky
Dimensional Pocket 10
*Extra: Range x 2 - Perception, Duration x 3 - Continuous
*Power Feat: Affect Insubstantial, Alternate Power 2
AP: Drain Reflex 5
*Extra: Alternate Save (Reflex, +0), Range, Action - Move, Autofire x 3
*Power Feat: Accurate 8, Improved Range 3, Improved Critical 15, Affect Insubstantial, Subtle 2, Indirect 3
AP: Transform Inanimate to Inanimate 20
*Extra: Continuous, Area
*Flaw: Touch, Action - Full Round, Distracting, Tiring
*Power Feat: Selective, Precise, Progression 9
Total Cost: 74pp
...If it weighs less than 1250 tons, and it's within 19 miles, it's shaped to any other object the player wants.

The above are templates that will allow you to win. The Bathroom Sniper is probably the most subtle one if you don't do it to my level, as ESP users with perception attacks are easy to overlook for what they can do.

Now, here's something that's a bit closer to a complete, PL 10 character; with a bit of flavour built into it to help get by.
Minus Maxus (aka Solomon Faust): PL 10; Initiative +0; Defense 10; Spd 30'; Atk +10 strike (+10 strike); SV Tou +15 (impervious), Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +15; Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10/30, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skill Ranks: Concentration 8, Diplomacy 4 (12 vs. demons), Knowledge (Arcane Lore) 12, Notice 8
Feats: Attractive (Demons) 2, Evasion, Luck, Ritualist, Skill Mastery (Diplomacy, Knowledge - Arcane Lore, Notice, Concentration)
Powers:
Arcane Mastery
*Quickness 12 (Flaw: Rituals only)
Ring of SolomonDevice 31 (Hard to Lose)
*Enhanced Feats: Accurate Attack, All-Out Attack, Power Attack, Takedown Attack, Defensive Attack
*Enhanced Constitution 20
*Protection 5
*Enhanced Saves 35
*Immunity 9 - Life-support
*Impervious Toughness 15 (only adds imperviousness to toughness save)
*Immunity 5 - Interaction Skills
*Strike 10 (Power Feats: Accurate 5, Affect Insubstantial, Alternate Power 3, Extended Reach, Subtle 2, Improved Critical 10)
*Super-Movement 1 (Air-walking)
*Super-Senses 6 (Extended Acute Tactile Blindsight)
*Teleport 5 (Extra: Accurate; Power Feat: Easy, Change Direction, Change Velocity, Turnabout)
2pp
Points: Combat 0 + Saves 0 + Abilities 8 + Skills 8 + Feats 6 + Powers 128 = 150

Obviously, this concept is assuming a demonic arcanist, and I threw in a few points for flavour, but they're easy to note and remove if you so desire (frees up 7pp). Please note the fact that he's a master at rituals, which are a cheap form of Shapechange that's much more subtle. You can take 10 at all times with the check (+16 bonus), and the Quickness power makes sure you can have the perfect power for the situation as a standard action, with a limit of 16pp...which is more than enough when it's tailor made.


As for what the average party tends to leave themselves vulnerable to? Almost anything that uses attacks that aren't forcing Toughness saves will likely get the party, because points in those three saving throws tend to be an afterthought, thus they're really low (+10 is the highest non-Toughness I ever see, and it's alone). Insubstantial opponents give a noticeable portion a run for their money. Hell, I've seen only one player ever actually put ranks in Concentration, despite the presence of vital powers with the Sustained duration and its vulnerabilities.

[Lago_AM3P]

Cool.

A couple of quick questions:

Why is your protection/impervious/shield/toughness bonus split up like that?

Why the lack of feats? Does Improved Critical really chew that much? I mean the book allows you to use Favored Opponent: Any with the right power feat...

How come no insubstantial?

Since hero points are arbitrarily handed out by the GM and have no upper limit, why pay for any of them at all?

Why does Improved Save cost 35 points like that?

How come you don't have more points in Mind Reading? Mental Grapple seems like an awesome combat option (especially with subtle) but it does seem like something that requires a good amount of expansion options.

How many times can you take Improved Initiative? Initiative in this game is AWESOME, especially when going first determines things like whether or not the villain will be able to activate the self-destruct button.

How come you don't have the autofire extra for any of the powers? Too expensive?

I also just noticed that a character can pick up MULTIPLE DEVICES. What the hell, man? Why doesn't everyone do that? It's not even cheesy; the Gadgeteer archetype on page 19 does that. The drawback of having it easy to disarm becomes even less meaningful.

... I just rememebered that shapeshift lets you shift around your physical stats. There's gotta be a way to abuse that.

The 6-stat system from d20 chews. There's gotta be a way to abuse this more.

[Lago_AM3P]

While we're on the subject, why are all of the hero archetypes so amazingly crappy?

Have the people who offered this crap up forgot that characters actually have to be able to DAMAGE the foes they're fighting? Because it seems to me like half of these losers' combat effectiveness would go UP with a few pulse rifles. Which is just sad.

[virgil]

Insubstantial can be overcome with a single power feat, so opponents almost don't have to try to ignore your ghostiness. I have shield for defense and the fact it's cheaper than normal defense and it's an actual power.

In games that I'm used to, improved critical is generally one of the first feats that get checked for veto; because it's just too good for what it does.

Autofire is too expensive to get real use out of it unless you tradeoff such that the damage is very low, but then you run into the very real hurdle of imperviousness.

Hero points are arbitrarily given by the DM, which means a fairly good resource is suddenly arbitrary to you, so having extra is good to overcome this.

The improved save ability is basically paying for your Fort/Ref/Will to be at +15, and I just didn't actually show how much went into each.

Mind Reading is their for use on mooks, and the primary part you want it for is the immunity to interaction skills.

There is no limit on Improved Initiative. This basically means that if you're fighting a speedster (who dedicates their powerset to that schtick), you lose initiative, unless you too are a speedster.

Yes, you're noticing that there are other options to gain, but notice that I only have so many points to spend? The moment I try to create supposedly awesome tactics, there will be large holes in his defenses. Solomon Faust's main purpose is to be overall tough to affect, and uses Ritualist to give himself an additional 16pp however he needs for the situation. He's also a template, so variance is expected. I should probably replace the Super Senses with Acute Tactile Blindsight (same cost, never have to worry about concealment). Since you want something more bland, I can probably squeeze a little bit more...

Oh, and I added another template for pwnage, especially since it's coupled with what seems like reality control.

[Lago_AM3P]

The Insubstantial power feat isn't used for flat-out immunity to attacks (though forcing villains to expend extra effort is always good for a laugh or three), I'm asking about it because it's the Swiss Army Knife of powers.

- It lets you escape grapples and physical snares.
- You can FIGHT THROUGH OBJECTS, which gives you crazy amounts of concealment and cover.
- You avoid lots of movement penalties.
- It gives a crazy amount of stealthiness.

I mean, it appears that you can hide in the floor, Aim your attacks, and then retreat into it and back. Though really, Super Movement (Permeable) looks much cheaper, gives practically the same benefits, and will probably not make the DM so suspicious.

Also, can you have Immunity (Aura)? If so, how much is that?

Autofire is too expensive to get real use out of it unless you tradeoff such that the damage is very low, but then you run into the very real hurdle of imperviousness.

Really? It seems almost like a necessity, despite the cost.


I just noticed that mental grapple uses the normal rules of mind reading, which requires a will save to start. Nevermind.

How would you set up concealment so that it makes it practically impossible for anyone to spot you with any combination of senses? Or if this is impossible, what's the best protection against being noticed in melee combat you can buy without resorting to crap like time/dimensional travel or the microverse?

How come more people don't pick up the Homing and Indirect super feats? Is it just too cheesy?

In your opinion, which skills should I bother sinking BP in? It looks our old friends of Gather Information, Diplomacy, and Notice are still in style. But like you said Concentration takes on a whole new importance.

Going back to Constitution, not to second guess you but is there a better arrangement where you can wheedle out points? I assume you set things the way up you did to give yourself an OMG HUGE bonus to concentration checks at all time, which is key.

I still don't understand why you're silent on the issue of Nullify. As written, it protects against practically anything, including being seen with super senses. I can't imagine how someone would go without, even though it is really expensive.

And speaking of expensive stuff...

What's your experience been with people using device as a cost-cutting method? Does it make people flip out, do people not care because of the 'you can take it away from people' drawback? Or, ironically, the 'easy to lose' version raises fewer eyebrows than the 'hard to lose' version for obvious reasons?

Also, drawbacks. What do you recommend?

[Lago_AM3P]

You know what? Since super senses are normally kept at a low rank, the Reaction version of Nullify seems like the bee's knees for stealth-based characters.

What do you think?

[Lago_AM3P]

Also, what are the limitations of the subtle feat? Can I stick it on blast for fun and profit? What about sticking it on my devices so people won't suspect that my bandaid gives me superpowers? Or best of all, can I use it on nullify to freak people out?

[virgil]

Let me tell ya, trying to think along these lines are not what I'm used to.

Super Movement (Permeate) does give you the stealth/movement avoidance you want. For combat advantage, accurate teleport with turnabout is much better. The swiss-army knife of powers are there because you pay for them, and trying to only get a couple means you only have to pay for those.

I don't believe Immunity (Aura) is allowed. The immunity relies on specific power descriptors/categories, so that means you also can't get Immunity (Blast).

For damaging powers, Autofire charges you another 30pp (assuming no trade-offs for your attack), which will honestly leave you struggling to even see your caps.

Concealment 10 makes you unseeable to anyone, no matter what their Notice is; which is why getting that with Stealth checks is pointless, because they won't even be allowed to make the check. The rule in the book is for when they use a sense that you don't have concealment against (audio for the invisible man). This doesn't count for tactile senses though, as you've noticed in my above build with ranged tactile senses.

Homing is generally considered too cheesy, which is why you don't see it more. Indirect just isn't thought of much, because almost all concepts don't really have those kind of attacks.

The skills to get are dependent on the DM and campaign. If you plan on using Inventor, don't, take Ritualist and only have to put ranks in Knowledge (arcane lore); rather than Knowledge (technology), Craft (mechanical), Craft (electrical), & Craft (chemical). Gather Information can be supersceded with low-ranks of Mind Reading, because random schmucks on the street aren't going to have a bonus. Notice is your friend, and the uses of Concentration are obvious. Search (with Quickness) is vital if you have any kind of large scale sensory capability. Bluff is about as important as Diplomacy now. Otherwise, you can likely supercede every other skill with a few points in other powers.

Constitution adds to both Fortitude and Toughness saves, thus costing the same, except that it ALSO gives you a bonus to Concentration and recovery checks for healing, making it cheaper to increase the ability score than the component traits.

Nullify only stops super-senses if you target the user, and it's either a Will save or a power check. You noticed that I had my Device power in one group under one object, that way I don't have multiple devices, but instead a single power array with a huge rank that makes it immune to Nullify (Solomon's Ring can't be touched by Nullify 10).

At least, that's what I was under the impression of, and I checked and realized that I was mistaken. Do you know what I can do though? Take the power feat, Innate. There, now that entire power's immune to Nullify, and it's easy as pie to put onto the device array to make ALL of the powers it grants immune to Nullify. The power can very well be the bee's knees, as long as your target doesn't have that single power feat or if he doesn't base his effectiveness on natural ability scores, skill ranks, and feats; then you'll discover that your giant pile of points is wasted, and Batman punches your face in.

Very few people try to use device for cost-cutting, because of the possibility of theft, and disarm is a very real danger with easy-to-lose devices. Taking immunity (disarm) can't really be done and still be expected to be allowed to have an easy-to-lose device (when a flaw isn't a flaw).

Drawbacks, hmmm. Noticeable is a good one to apply to any power you don't plan on being sneaky while using, and obviously not when you're using subtle. Some of the disabilities work well too, such as one arm or mute. Most anything else could work on the power you want, but they can very easily see a veto by the DM using the "if it's not a flaw" rule, such as Full Power on defensive powers, or parapalegic if you have the flight power.

Another very good option, but easily noticed if you go extreme, is Headquarters. The Bathroom Sniper could be built on about 15pp by putting those powers into your Headquarters, and even more so if you attempt to make the headquarters mobile. Obviously, this is something a competent DM would notice and put a stop to; though you could create something similar to the TARDIS and likely get it by the DM if you mention that specifically (long range travel, dimensionally, with ESP of various types).

The pathetic builds of the archetypes in the beginning of the book? They're inefficient, I'll give you that. The ones that don't seem to meet their combat caps actually do, but only because their powers are left vague and you can meet the caps when you choose them (the alternate power feats, proper usage of Shapechange, etc).

[Lago_AM3P]

Let me tell ya, trying to think along these lines are not what I'm used to.

What's that supposed to mean?!

At least, that's what I was under the impression of, and I checked and realized that I was mistaken. Do you know what I can do though? Take the power feat, Innate. There, now that entire power's immune to Nullify, and it's easy as pie to put onto the device array to make ALL of the powers it grants immune to Nullify. The power can very well be the bee's knees, as long as your target doesn't have that single power feat or if he doesn't base his effectiveness on natural ability scores, skill ranks, and feats; then you'll discover that your giant pile of points is wasted, and Batman punches your face in.

You're only supposed to use Innate on powers that /are/ actually innate, though (like an elephant's size). You can't just slap it onto your power ring and thumb your nose at Drain/Nullify.

Since Nullify's an opposed check, you can (presumably) use it along with Ultimate Effort and thumb your nose at your foes.

don't believe Immunity (Aura) is allowed. The immunity relies on specific power descriptors/categories, so that means you also can't get Immunity (Blast).

Then you do you protect against the Aura extra? It seems like you would never want to pick up the Strike power, then, as it will hose you.


Here's an idea. I got it from One Piece.

There's a technique called 'Kami-E', which means that someone can relax their muscles and float in the air like a sheet of paper, dodging attacks.

In game terms... you need the following combination.

Super Movement (Air Walking), Instant Up, and Prone Attack.

Your strategy? When you're in a ranged blast-off with people you hate, float in the air 'prone' during your round and enjoy your +4 bonus to ranged AC.

Very few people try to use device for cost-cutting, because of the possibility of theft, and disarm is a very real danger with easy-to-lose devices. Taking immunity (disarm) can't really be done and still be expected to be allowed to have an easy-to-lose device (when a flaw isn't a flaw).

That's the thing, though. It's a built-in way for the DM to throw out plot hooks and stop the character from shining when they get out of hand. But you could still cover your weakness with stuff that lets you retrieve it or applying the 'Subtle' power feat to your device so it won't be obvious that your Megarock is hurting the foes.

Gather Information can be supersceded with low-ranks of Mind Reading, because random schmucks on the street aren't going to have a bonus. Notice is your friend, and the uses of Concentration are obvious. Search (with Quickness) is vital if you have any kind of large scale sensory capability. Bluff is about as important as Diplomacy now. Otherwise, you can likely supercede every other skill with a few points in other powers.

Gather Information is there to determine things like the hideout of Doc Savage or where the WayneCorp's funds are being diverted to or Dr. Light's most embarrassing defeats or some shady guy's special powers and (especially) fears and weaknesses--you know, stuff that should be found out during downtime to build a dossier. Maybe?

I'd use it to find out as much information about the people I hate as possible for first strike capability and to exploit weaknesses. Like Boy Toy's childishness and White Knight's stupidity.

I forgot all about Search. That is going to be extremely useful in retrospect.

Bluff also seems to be quite the face-rocking ability, if for nothing else other than getting the villain to monologue.

[Lago_AM3P]

Also, what books do you recommend?

Not just for pure gooey cheesy power but also setting books and hero/villain classbooks. I really liked a bunch of villain ideas from Freedom City.

[virgil]

What's that supposed to mean?!

It means that my style of thinking for MnM has been thinking of a concept and making it fit within the rules, or for reacting to characters when designing encounters. Attempting to build something with the express intent of 'most power without being stupid', before even contemplating what the character even IS is foreign to me.

You're only supposed to use Innate on powers that /are/ actually innate, though (like an elephant's size).

I agree. But, technically you can't use Nullify on a club (mighty strike), and similar. I could try to describe the ring as something innate to the fabric of it all, so using Nullify on it is like using Nullify on the 1 meter between you and your comptuer screen.

Otherwise, the realistic approach to stop any kind of Nullify is to apply Impervious to your Will save (Mental Shield does similar, but only on mental effects and is flawed).

Then you do you protect against the Aura extra?

You get a high enough toughness save to withstand it. And if you have strike, apply aura yourself so you force two saves on your target. This shows the danger of linked powers, as you could apply it to a blast multiple times and a single shot will force multiple saves.

The 'Kami-E' strategy does work pretty well, but if your opponent has any movement powers, they can put themselves in melee range of you and then blast you, negating the prone bonus.

Bringing in RP reasons to use Device, huh? I'm just saying that's what many people think of when they choose to not use Devices. I personally think Hard-to-Lose devices shouldn't give the savings they do, as it's about as common as Power Loss or Normal Identity, and those are very low point drawbacks.

Yes, Gather Information can determine handy things, but imagine what you would get if you spent a night out on the town doing deep scans of all those people you would've normally talked to. In fact...
Wilson Google
Super Senses 6
*Detect Minds (mental sense)
*Radius, Ranged, Extended, Acute
Mind Reading 6
*Extra: Area
*Flaw: Limited - Probe only, Distracting
*Power Feat: Selective, Precise, Progression
Total Cost: 12pp
...Wholly in character, and pretty much allows you to ask a question out of everyone you survey with your near-sighted Cerebro.

Of course, if you don't want to spend those kind of points...
Just One Call
Skill: Gather Information 15 ranks
Feats: Skill Mastery, Contacts
Total Cost: 6pp

[Lago_AM3P]

I agree. But, technically you can't use Nullify on a club (mighty strike), and similar. I could try to describe the ring as something innate to the fabric of it all, so using Nullify on it is like using Nullify on the 1 meter between you and your comptuer screen.

If someone pulled that on me I'd cry foul.

Regardless, there are times when you would be fighting giant robots or aliens or whatever. That's why Nullify should totally have or be an alternate power of something.

Otherwise, the realistic approach to stop any kind of Nullify is to apply Impervious to your Will save (Mental Shield does similar, but only on mental effects and is flawed).

Say wha?

Yes, Gather Information can determine handy things, but imagine what you would get if you spent a night out on the town doing deep scans of all those people you would've normally talked to. In fact...

Right, but if you wanted to know stuff like all of the men Larry Craig has had sex with or who is giving bribes to Senator McCracken, you might not necessarily want to do the whole 'wander the streets and scan peoples' minds'.

Plus, this random invasion of innocent peoples' privacy is not how heroes or even decent citizens should ask and I would expect major consequences if you were found out. The morality of this tactic would be questionable even in Shadowrun--in MnM it's right out.

The 'Kami-E' strategy does work pretty well, but if your opponent has any movement powers, they can put themselves in melee range of you and then blast you, negating the prone bonus.

Ranged powers become melee when you get close enough? Wha?

Bringing in RP reasons to use Device, huh? I'm just saying that's what many people think of when they choose to not use Devices. I personally think Hard-to-Lose devices shouldn't give the savings they do, as it's about as common as Power Loss or Normal Identity, and those are very low point drawbacks.

I thought as much.

As I said earlier, I think more people are receptive to the thought of your powers being able to be taken away with a disarm check (easy to lose) than the 4-point device cost.

But regardless, you run into the whole problem D&D has when trying to take out a cleric archer. While a smart one uses things like concealment to avoid being hit by dispel checks in all seriousness they WANT to draw the fire of this inefficient tactic.

If a foe is targetting you with non-lethal, non-SoL attacks and not your friends then you are WINNING. If it takes more than two rounds of a villain's full attention to take you out of the combat then you're more than doing your job.

[Lago_AM3P]

Concealment 10 makes you unseeable to anyone, no matter what their Notice is; which is why getting that with Stealth checks is pointless, because they won't even be allowed to make the check. The rule in the book is for when they use a sense that you don't have concealment against (audio for the invisible man). This doesn't count for tactile senses though, as you've noticed in my above build with ranged tactile senses.

Stuff like Radio hearing and Ki sensing is exactly why I want to generate a really high stealth check. Concealment can't do jack against those powers, but since those powers allow you to make a notice check (NOT automatically see everything) mundane stealth is still important.

But the real reason I want concealment is so I can extend the action to full-round/standard and grant concealment to the entire party so we can go on stealth missions.

Regardless, X-Ray with the limitation of 'flesh/gold can block it' seems very cheesy.

Search (with Quickness) is vital if you have any kind of large scale sensory capability. Bluff is about as important as Diplomacy now.

We should probably make a list of ways you can use Bluff. That skill is really important in a Superhero game.

Indirect just isn't thought of much, because almost all concepts don't really have those kind of attacks.

Indirect is vitally important for stealth-based characters, though, and generates great laughs.

Another very good option, but easily noticed if you go extreme, is Headquarters. The Bathroom Sniper could be built on about 15pp by putting those powers into your Headquarters, and even more so if you attempt to make the headquarters mobile. Obviously, this is something a competent DM would notice and put a stop to; though you could create something similar to the TARDIS and likely get it by the DM if you mention that specifically (long range travel, dimensionally, with ESP of various types).

You know, having a HQ would be really useful if you could cheese it right. And fun, too.

There's gotta be some way to get one Bag of Holding Style. Or, if not, a way to just be able to open a portal to such HQ buried somewhere inaccessible.

The pathetic builds of the archetypes in the beginning of the book? They're inefficient, I'll give you that. The ones that don't seem to meet their combat caps actually do, but only because their powers are left vague and you can meet the caps when you choose them (the alternate power feats, proper usage of Shapechange, etc).

Does anyone actually build their characters like that? I'd imagine that even beginners to MnM wouldn't settle for less than at least an offensive power having as high a DC as they can get and at least one good area of defense.

[virgil]

Concealment 10 specifically makes you unnoticeable to ALL sense types (except tactile), so it can do plenty against those esoteric Sense powers (Ki Sense, Radio Hearing, Detect Minds, etc). If you choose to have a maximum effect Concealment, then there is truly nothing stopping you from being noticed...except for oddballs that try to put Ranged on their Tactile sense, which probably shouldn't see use in a normal game.

As for X-Ray vision, all it does is negate the benefit of concealment & cover, which does prevent you from using the Stealth skill...unless you have Hide in Plain Sight.

Getting a headquarters to work like a Bag of Holding is easy if you give it the power Teleport with the Portal extra, along with some other flaws/extras depending on how you want it to work.

In regards to the whole mind reading for gather information, I see casual probes done to normal people all the time by telepaths in X-Men. In other comics, telepaths are pretty free with surface scans, and they don't seem to face moral quandries if they limit their probes to villains or vital information. Heck, Professor X has been freakin' brainwashing generic goons recently, and nobody seems to be batting an eye.

Right, but if you wanted to know stuff like all of the men Larry Craig has had sex with or who is giving bribes to Senator McCracken, you might not necessarily want to do the whole 'wander the streets and scan peoples' minds'.

And letting it be known on the streets that you're highly interested in knowing this is better than just mentally digging through the minds of normal people who wouldn't even be able to tell your digging (obviously, take Subtle)?

I was under the impression that the prone modifier to ranged attacks didn't apply when you're adjacent to your opponent, like normal D&D...but it seems that I'm wrong. Obviously Blast is better than Strike, but that's why it costs twice as much. I don't see how the existance of Aura invalidates the concept of having Strike; it's like arguing that you shouldn't even consider having Insubstantial or Super-Movement (Permeate) because of the ease of using Nullify (Insubstantial).

Speaking of Nullify, it allows a Will save or a power check to resist (whichever bonus is higher). You can apply impervious to more than just Toughness, where you automatically make the save if your bonus is greater than the rank of the power forcing the save. Add on top of that the fact that the DC for non-toughness saves are 10+rank (as opposed to 15+rank for toughness), and the cap for your save bonus is PL+5 (as opposed to PL for toughness), and you've got some serious trouble with your alternate save powers. Or at least, you would if people spent more points on their saving throws, but I've already mentioned they tend to be an afterthought.

[Lago_AM3P]

And letting it be known on the streets that you're highly interested in knowing this is better than just mentally digging through the minds of normal people who wouldn't even be able to tell your digging (obviously, take Subtle)?

You're a superhero so the information you REALLY want to have is already:

A) Guarded by people who don't want you to have it.
B) Beholden to people who hate your guts anyway.

So the fact that you're digging for information on a Senator that is selling nuclear technology to terrorists or looking for Miang's current incarnation so you can out her has no consequences. They're already going to hide that information from you to the maximum extent possible and trying to get it in the first place is going to piss them off.

You can apply impervious to more than just Toughness, where you automatically make the save if your bonus is greater than the rank of the power forcing the save.

That sounds amazingly broken. Where the hell is this written?

Speaking of Nullify, it allows a Will save or a power check to resist (whichever bonus is higher). You can apply impervious to more than just Toughness, where you automatically make the save if your bonus is greater than the rank of the power forcing the save. Add on top of that the fact that the DC for non-toughness saves are 10+rank (as opposed to 15+rank for toughness), and the cap for your save bonus is PL+5 (as opposed to PL for toughness), and you've got some serious trouble with your alternate save powers. Or at least, you would if people spent more points on their saving throws, but I've already mentioned they tend to be an afterthought.

But since Nullify for defensive reasons is an opposed check against an opposed power check you can apply Ultimate Effort to it and tell your opponent to suck it.

Or if you had the PP to burn (which you don't, but still) you can pump points into it past the save bonus cap to regain the lead. But if you're just using it to save your own bacon that's not necessary.

[Lago_AM3P]

It means that my style of thinking for MnM has been thinking of a concept and making it fit within the rules, or for reacting to characters when designing encounters. Attempting to build something with the express intent of 'most power without being stupid', before even contemplating what the character even IS is foreign to me.

In a point-based game with totally free ability selection (unlike D&D and Shadowrun), you need to analyze all of your tactical options ahead of time if you're going for combat effectiveness.

The way of 'pick a theme, make it most effective' often does not work, especially since some themes (mimicry, time controller, or unpowered Batman-like character) are completely unworkable out of the gate. I find that it's easier and you come up with more creative characters when you slap together a bunch of powers first and then justify it post hoc.

In regards to the whole mind reading for gather information, I see casual probes done to normal people all the time by telepaths in X-Men. In other comics, telepaths are pretty free with surface scans, and they don't seem to face moral quandries if they limit their probes to villains or vital information. Heck, Professor X has been freakin' brainwashing generic goons recently, and nobody seems to be batting an eye.

Right, but the use of gather information you provided involved the use of breaking random peoples' privacy to easter egg for the information you wanted to.

Seriously, Professor Xavier invading peoples' minds to look for the information that he wants is exactly why people hate mutants. Furthermore I could see very real legal consequences coming from superheroes who routinely probe minds without real reason to solve crimes. No, scanning the minds of random mafia thugs for juicy information does not count.

Now, for cases like terrorism or interrogation mind reading is a very humane and failsafe method of operation. If you capture the villain and demand to know where the hell the kryptonite missiles But for information gathering you really need to use it in conjunction with something else.

Obviously Blast is better than Strike, but that's why it costs twice as much. I don't see how the existance of Aura invalidates the concept of having Strike; it's like arguing that you shouldn't even consider having Insubstantial or Super-Movement (Permeate) because of the ease of using Nullify (Insubstantial).

Right, but having your Insubstantialness nullified won't put you down for the count. You still (hopefully) have your offensive powers. Even if you have no other defenses you can still contribute to the fight.

But if you can't use your offensive power, you're totally screwed. Well, sure, you could always have a power on the backburner... but in that case, why take Strike at all? Melee combat is good to get a lot of situational bonuses but the option of using stealth, range, and cover already makes Blast over the top in comparison.

[virgil]

For the Impervious extra to saves, it's not explicitly written in the core book, but detailed in Mastermind's Manual, and you can infer it from the Mental Shield power.

In a point-based game with totally free ability selection (unlike D&D and Shadowrun), you need to analyze all of your tactical options ahead of time if you're going for combat effectiveness.

In a point-based game with totally fluid character design, you don't need to analyze your tactical options with a fine-toothed comb. Your DM pretty much has to cook up encounters for your player, so they're going to be arbitrarily powerful enough (or weak enough) to challenge you anyway. Ultimately, you cannot make a character that's truly unassailable by any challenge, as you'll just plain run out of points; even not taking into account PL X opponents.

The way of 'pick a theme, make it most effective' often does not work, especially since some themes (mimicry, time controller, or unpowered Batman-like character) are completely unworkable out of the gate. I find that it's easier and you come up with more creative characters when you slap together a bunch of powers first and then justify it post hoc.

*You* may find it easier to make creative characters after slapping the powers together, *I* honestly work better the other way around. Besides, I can probably cook up a passable/non-broken Batman or time controller concept (possibly mimicry as well, depending on your flexibility with the concept).

The mutant-hating population, except for the high-ranking gov't types, are actually largely ignorant of Professor X and any of his antics. People would hate mutants for their potential, no matter how much they don't abuse their power. Just being able to probe minds is going to get people scared, no matter how noble you try to be with it; and when you limit your probes to the unpowered, they won't even be aware that you ever did it. Obviously, this is for a more gritty, gray morality supers game; not your standard four-color material.

The original point in my comparison for using Mind Reading as opposed to Gather Information is that the latter is announcing that you're interested and thus giving the higher ups a chance to be pissed off. Mind Reading is much more discreet, if not just plain unnoticed, other than the fact you're still going to be around the area (but not actually announcing anything incriminating).

Obviously, this is somewhat moot, as I did show you what only 6pp can do for you if there's an intent to use Gather Information.

Getting Insubstantial nullified while you're inside solid material (even partially) could very well put you down for the count; the exact effect is something I'd have to look up, but I'm not near a book right now.

As for Strike, the advantage for stealth and cover are still there. It's never said that you can't put Indirect on Strike, and stabbing people's feet is quite doable.

[virgil]

Oh, almost forgot about this, a superior version of Deflect...
Off-switch(Device 6, easy to lose)
Immunity 170
*All physical/energy damage (lethal & nonlethal), all Fort/Ref/Will saves
*Flaw: Action x3 - Standard, Duration x2 - Instant
Total Cost: 18pp

Got a readied action? Then you too can give yourself immunity to the next attack, particularly good as an alternate power for that force field generator when going mano-a-mano.

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay. You seem to have some insight...

How would you abuse (dynamic) alternate powers?

Also, is it just me or does it seem that your PP seems to explode once you get it at half-rank?

I was thinking about getting, say, a power that adds to your fortitude and will save but has the (limited) flaw of only working when you can see the moon. Then all of your adventures take place on the moon. Or, less(?) cheesily, you intentionally give your DM a common way to make your character sit out of combat if he feels that you are stealing the show.

Also, I see no way in hell any DM ever allowing you to attach Impervious to a save, only because save bonuses can always be higher than damage ranks any sane person would put into their power.

In a point-based game with totally fluid character design, you don't need to analyze your tactical options with a fine-toothed comb. Your DM pretty much has to cook up encounters for your player, so they're going to be arbitrarily powerful enough (or weak enough) to challenge you anyway. Ultimately, you cannot make a character that's truly unassailable by any challenge, as you'll just plain run out of points; even not taking into account PL X opponents.

My goal isn't to make an unassailable character, that would be boring.

My goal instead is to make a character that can overcome most any kind of threat or challenge and to attack weak points inherent to most characters in the Superhero genre.

For example, most superpowered characters have a big problem with hardcore stealth. This applies to even Batman and Wolverine. I think we can get something out of this.

[virgil]

Dynamic power arrays can't really be abused. I suppose there might be a trick with the right combination of Boost, but that's Boost's abuse, not DAP.

There is at least one way for someone to attach Impervious to a non-Toughness save, and that's the Mind Shield power. As an aside, you're technically allowed to put on partial ranks (ie. Protection 10, 5 ranks are impervious = 15pp); which makes the Penetrating extra on Blast exceptionally good to put on partial ranks, as once the effective impervious is lower than your blast rank, then you force a save as normal.

As for general weak points...you've noticed one (stealth), another being teleporters or incorporeals. Snares are brutal against non-tanks (and the Affects Insubstantial feat makes sure ghosts are hit too). The very fact that it's common for people to leave their non-Toughness saves low make them pretty potent in general; so all of the mental powers are pretty effects. Perception & area attacks are also great against people who did heavy tradeoffs for Defense over Toughness.

Also, power descriptors are important things to know, especially if the setting has a theme.

Having Nullify (mutation) is drastically more effective in the X-Men universe than the DC universe; though Nullify (psionics) will have pretty hefty effects in both. Heck, Nullify (mechanical) works wonders against an entire category of villainy.

[Lago_AM3P]

Ohhhhh yeeeeahhh...

Yet another question.

For non-powered feats that apply to a specific attack mode (such as specialization, critical strike, etc.), can you apply them to an array?

For example, I have device (blast) with (snare) as an AP of blast; can I put attack specialization on just device?

[virgil]

Yes and no.

A feat cannot be applied to an array in a seperate fashion, so choosing attack specialization has to be either blast or snare in your example.

However, you can put the feat into the array itself, so when you switch the array the feat can be switched along with it.

[Lago_AM3P]

However, you can put the feat into the array itself, so when you switch the array the feat can be switched along with it.

Why would they do that? Isn't the cost-savings the same?

Anyway, how you would you manipulate the array, anyway? Like how would it look like for someone who had a devastating melee attack, some sort of snare, trip + knockback, and a mental blast?

Also, do you have to take extended reach for melee multiple times (crappy) or can you combine it with some other power feat that makes it much more (ab)useable?

Furthermore, since feinting can be done as a MEA, if you had an ungodly high Bluff check for some reason and the target didn't have immunity to interaction skills (or you took the much crappier Acrobatic Bluff feat), is there any reason why you WOULDN'T do it if you could?

What are your thoughts on equipment? The standard stuff you can buy seems like crap, but the HQ ones look really good.

If you wanted to make an easy-to-lose device that you could nonetheless bring back to your hand with a song and a dance, how would you do that?

Is there a reason why almost no one takes luck control and/or master plan? I definitely plan on taking master plan and picking up Ultimate Effort for it. Get a couple of synergy checks, a weaksauce Int bonus, and BAM. Luck control also seems crazy overpowered for what you get.

Is there a reason why almost no one maxes out their Computer skill in information-age settings? You can do crazy-good stuff with that, I think.

Also, sticking flaws on ability scores... yay? nay?

[Lago_AM3P]

Actually, the stuff (feats) I'm wondering why more people don't have are the following:

Second Chance
Redirect
Eidectic Memory (if you use knowledge skills)
Grappling Finesse
Improved Critical
Diehard (for lethal campaigns)
Blindfight
Evasion x 2 for characters on the toughness end of defense/toughness tradeoffs
Prone Fighting (for snipers)
Precise Shot
Connected
Skill Mastery
Well-Informed (crazy-good skill in Silver Age/Iron Age)
Ultimate Effort
Uncanny Dodge (the fact that not EVERYONE has this feat, even the bricks, puzzles me)

Also, on the side of feats that I think are overrated...


A lot of people have the feats that shift around your attack/damage/defense. Power attack and all. If you're already regularly pushing the limits, why would you have these feats?

Stunning Attack
Track
Teamwork (campaign power limits bonus)
Improved Grapple
Interpose
Inspire
Fearless
Assessment
Ambidexterity

[Lago_AM3P]

I'm just going through some of the sourcebooks, but it seems like sticking Ultimate Effort + Luck Control on Nullify completely screws like 95% of the villains.