The Gaming Den

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:35 pm**

To clarify, I'm saying you could make one where people can't screw with the system remotely. They could still get it to play audio, if they can figure out what your audio transmissions are supposed to look like and what frequency they should be sent on.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:48 am**

A sneak peek into Bull's crazy design choices. Context: in SR5 you can not raise your attribute by more than 4 above your karma-bought value.

Bull wrote:The +4 rule was one I proposed early in the design process (During the initial meeting up in Seattle, which was just me, Jason, Randall Bills, and Matt Heerdt, IIRC).

This was done mainly because I had come across a weird character build a number of times at conventions during Missions play for Season 4. Players taking very low to moderate natural attributes, and then going apeshit with a combination of cyber, bio, adepts powers, and magic (Primarly seen in Bio-Augmented Adepts). It struck me as odd that one human character with a low natural att could rack up +5 or +6 to an attribute to max it out at 9, but the player who built a character with a high natural att couldn't take advantage of those same mod combinations and would be limited to only +3.

Now, obviously we didn't want to just open it up and remove the limits. That would simply open the door for worse abuse. So we went the other direction, limiting the total mods regardless of the natural attribute.

Going with Att + 4 instead of Att +3 also seemed a good compromise. It meant that almost across the board every race ended up being able to get a slightly higher max statline if they put in the effort, naturally and through augmentation (ANd augmentation is defined as anything that boosts an attribute, magical or synthetic). The only exception ends up being, I believe, Trolls with Body and Strength, but that was deemed to be an ok situation since their ridiculous bodies and strengths were already problematic.

There's your little peek behind the curtain and the reasoning behind it. It was not simply a change just to change things. Some people really like the change, a few folks really hate it. I personally stand by it, as I think it was a solid one.

Bull

It honestly feels like most of the changes in SR5 are a kneejerk reaction to some fringe builds and joke characters like Pornomancer and Troll Climber.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:06 am**

How did previous SR editions handle that

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:18 pm**

not well. but for some weird reason it never handled augmented stats very well. SR2 and 3 didn't really give a fuck, SR4 had racial caps, like a human could never get any attribute above 9, no matter what his natural and mods were. but this is a game where your natural attributes still mattered when you replaced all your limbs, your torso and head with cyberware, so go figure, it can't handle stats well.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:21 pm**

Rawbeard wrote:not well. but for some weird reason it never handled augmented stats very well. SR2 and 3 didn't really give a fuck, SR4 had racial caps, like a human could never get any attribute above 9, no matter what his natural and mods were. but this is a game where your natural attributes still mattered when you replaced all your limbs, your torso and head with cyberware, so go figure, it can't handle stats well.

That's still the case in SR5. Your augmented maximum is your natural maximum +4 (i.e. 10 for humans), and cyberlimbs are still crazy. For example, your movement speed is based on your agility and doesn't care about cyberlegs agility at all. If you have Agility 1, but all your limbs and torso were replaced with Agility 10 cyberlimbs - you are a turtle.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:50 pm**

SR3 had Attributes Aug Max be Natural Max x1.5 rounded up.
So on QCK6 you get a max aug QCK of 9, on QCK7 you get max aug QCK11.
Which is what made elves so strong then, because QCK was what determined the points cost for raising a whole bunch of skills and also combat pool and reaction.
In SR3, a Troll could, realiably, get a STR of 15 and Bod of 18.
Which meant he basically became nigh unkillable by anything that would not reduce everything around him to red paste. While also simply oneshotting most anything he hit in melee . . if he hit at all.
Which, for some reason, was a problem in the eyes of the SR4 and 5 Devs. No, i HONESTLY do not see the Problem there. It confuses me.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:09 pm**

SR4 and SR5 devs had a severe overestimation of how good melee actually is. In both SR4 and SR5 melee attack is a complex action, which means fewer attacks in SR4 and shitty action economy in SR5. For example in SR5 you can't move and do a called shot punch to the groin. You don't have enough actions for a called shot. In SR4 an optimized troll could reach something like 20DV on punches which gave Bull a stroke and he removed all benefits from martial arts, made Critical Strike a flat +1 DV and made pure adepts unviable in melee. Trolls can still reach 20DV though due to ware creep.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:53 pm**

Trolls, as of SR4, can not reach their augmented max in bod for example.
Because all of the ware that actually added to bod got changed to not do that anymore <.<

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:52 am**

Longes wrote:SR4 and SR5 devs had a severe overestimation of how good melee actually is. In both SR4 and SR5 melee attack is a simple action, which means fewer attacks in SR4 and shitty action economy in SR5. For example in SR5 you can't move and do a called shot punch to the groin. You don't have enough actions for a called shot. In SR4 an optimized troll could reach something like 20DV on punches which gave Bull a stroke and he removed all benefits from martial arts, made Critical Strike a flat +1 DV and made pure adepts unviable in melee. Trolls can still reach 20DV though due to ware creep.

Please tell me how to do this, even though 20DV is severely undervalued now.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:26 am**

Just being a troll with maxed strengh gets you 11dv. +4 from mucle augmentation and drugs. +3 from bone density. +2 from striking calluses. +1 from critical strike.

EDIT: if you mean SR4, then be a troll with max strength, and buy up Critical Strike and all martial arts that give +1DV. I think boxing gives +2 and there is something else, muay thai maybe.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:00 am**

Err . . isn't it STR/2 DV for unarmed combat?
Only the Trollbow did not get the halving treatment, if i remember correctly.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:58 am**

In SR5 unarmed damage is STR, since all damage values went up. Light pistols do about 7-9DV, so unwared brawlers and even unwared adepts are not that great. And due to melee being a Complex Action you are fucked on action economy. For example, adepts can't activate elemental strike (setting their fists on fire) and attack in the same turn. Or activate attribute boost and attack in the same turn. Or really activate anything and attack in the same turn.

Not that elemental strike is worth activating - only Radiation and Pollution have AP modifiers, and those are toxic. Fire may or may not give you -6 AP depending on who reads the rules, and fire's secondary effect is a chance to set someone on fire (not that great given fast shadowrun combat). Electricity gives the victim -1 die to everything and -5 initiative, which is one of the better effects but still not worth missing a pass. Cold is retarded - the target rolls its armor value and if it gets no hits - armor is broken. But since armor is generally 9+ - this is a worthless effect. Acid gives -1 armor per strike, which is worthless. Water gets a bonus knockdown chance but always does stun. And that's all the worthless elements SR5 gives you. Radiation ignores the armor completely, which is awesome, but you won't be allowed to play with it.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:00 am**

Stahlseele wrote:Err . . isn't it STR/2 DV for unarmed combat?
Only the Trollbow did not get the halving treatment, if i remember correctly.

In SR4 strength is worthless in melee combat. So worthless in fact, that the optimal unarmed fighter is a pixie.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:07 am**

How so?

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:37 am**

Base unarmed DV is (STR/2). That means maximum 2, 4, 4, 6, 6, and 7 for pixie, human, elf, ork, dwarf and troll. Notice that the difference between ork and troll is just 1 DV so there's never a reason to gimp your agility by being a troll. But while the base unarmed damage of a troll it three times bigger than pixie's, pixie has twice as much agility and, due to not putting anything into strength, can actually max out that agilitiy. A pixie also has higher reaction which means they get hit less. On top of that pixie has Concealment which means the first attack from a pixie is almost always will be a sneak attack without a dodge roll. On top of that, unarmed damage has diminishing returns. Once you get past the point where you kill someone with one hit, getting more DV doesn't really do much for you. Meanwhile a pixie gets high Agility and is a wicked good ninja.

But really the most important point is that bonuses from ware, martial arts and adept powers are just much greater than what strength gives you.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:52 am**

Longes wrote:Just being a troll with maxed strengh gets you 11dv. +4 from mucle augmentation and drugs. +3 from bone density. +2 from striking calluses. +1 from critical strike.

EDIT: if you mean SR4, then be a troll with max strength, and buy up Critical Strike and all martial arts that give +1DV. I think boxing gives +2 and there is something else, muay thai maybe.

I see. Thanks!

Longes wrote: Radiation ignores the armor completely, which is awesome, but you won't be allowed to play with it.

I just want to be able to say "I CAST FIST!" and have mushroom clouds go off on the other guy.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:09 pm**

Yeah, as far as stats go agility is just plain better than strength, always and forever. Strength and offensive skills/powers are basically one trick ponies while agility at least helps your stealth skills on top of making you a more accurate fighter. Any time you can get your attributes to pull double duty is a good thing--magicians kick ass in Shadowrun in part because they are sneakily more point efficient than people initially realize. When you make a pure magician you're essentially paying a small premium to run all of your most important shit off of one attribute and 1 or 2 skills, and it's not hard to get value on that exchange if you build intelligently.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:13 pm**

Fucks wrote:How so?

Do not tell me you have not seen the awesome that is Punch the Pixi o.o

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=24131

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:58 am**

Longes wrote:SR4 and SR5 devs had a severe overestimation of how good melee actually is. In both SR4 and SR5 melee attack is a simple complex action, which means fewer attacks in SR4 and shitty action economy in SR5.

I know you didn't mean simple action, but just to point out in case anyone is confused, it's a complex action in SR4 and 5.

In SR5, devs saw how bad melee was, and instead of making it better to be in line with ranged combat, they brought ranged combat down to the shitty level of melee with the "1 attack per phase" bullshit. It's kind of a DnD dev mindset I guess...

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:47 pm**

Another irritating quirk of the "melee is a complex action" bullshit is that at least under the SR4 system sprinting took a Simple action. You want to try gunning people down while running like Usain Bolt? Knock yourself out! You want to use your sweet Athletics pool to jack up your movement speed and super kick people's teeth right out of their stupid idiot faces? That's verboten because Shadowrun hates cyber-ninjas.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:42 pm**

Whipstitch wrote:Another irritating quirk of the "melee is a complex action" bullshit is that at least under the SR4 system sprinting took a Simple action. You want to try gunning people down while running like Usain Bolt? Knock yourself out! You want to use your sweet Athletics pool to jack up your movement speed and super kick people's teeth right out of their stupid idiot faces? That's verboten because Shadowrun hates cyber-ninjas.

More like they hate reality, and are totally ignorant about martial arts. A amateur MMA striker can fire 6 attacks in less seconds, and easily move more than 5' while doing so.

As for an actual cyber-ninja; I'd be totally accepting if they were the equivalent of a woodchipper on a motorcycle. 1-2 Attacks per creature they pass by (based on 1W or 2WF); a "borg legs" speed; and the potential to grind apart anything that they stop in front of, or circle while striking.

But then, I'm super biased in favour of melee builds that operate like a Whirlwind Barbarian from Diablo 2. Fast attack & high movement speed over slow super-heavy hits; and try to build such into melee characters in any game I've played.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:02 pm**

Judging__Eagle wrote:a "borg legs" speed

Funny you should mention that. In SR5 cyberlegs don't affect your movement speed. It is determined purely by your base agility stat. It doesn't matter if you have cyberlegs with Agility 10 or cyberlegs with Agility 3.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:05 pm**

Well, the Kid-Stealth/Raptor-Legs in SR3 gave you a higher running multiplicator and also more dice for athletics so they actually did improve your running speed by a fair bit. And you could still install hydraulic jacks that i think improved running speed a bit more, but i am not sure about that right now.
Otherwise, you are, sadly, completely correct.

Hell, technically speaking, your robot legs actually tire and not even that much slower than the meat ones <-<

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:18 pm**

Longes wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote:a "borg legs" speed
Funny you should mention that. In SR5 cyberlegs don't affect your movement speed. It is determined purely by your base agility stat. It doesn't matter if you have cyberlegs with Agility 10 or cyberlegs with Agility 3.

That is not even remotely funny.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:18 pm**

Stahlseele wrote:Well, the Kid-Stealth/Raptor-Legs in SR3 gave you a higher running multiplicator and also more dice for athletics so they actually did improve your running speed by a fair bit. And you could still install hydraulic jacks that i think improved running speed a bit more, but i am not sure about that right now.
Otherwise, you are, sadly, completely correct.

Hell, technically speaking, your robot legs actually tire and not even that much slower than the meat ones <-<

Kid Stealth legs are still in now called "Digigrade Legs" and they do increase your running multiplier. You still need to have natural agility to actually run fast though. Hydraulic Jacks increase your physical limit for running and jumping tests (no one cares) and give +1 die for those tests.

Rawbeard wrote:
Longes wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote:a "borg legs" speed
Funny you should mention that. In SR5 cyberlegs don't affect your movement speed. It is determined purely by your base agility stat. It doesn't matter if you have cyberlegs with Agility 10 or cyberlegs with Agility 3.
That is not even remotely funny.

Cyberlimbs in SR5 are a tremendous waste of time because they don't interact with the limits. You can have all five cyberlimbs at maxed out strength and never use your natural strength for anything... except for determining your physical limit.
The only exception to this is the shooting godhand for deckers and faces. The limit for ranged attacks is determined by the weapon's accuracy, so you can have agility 1 strength 1 and still shoot pistols like Revolver Ocelot.

Bang bang bang

The Gaming Den

Drunken Review: Shadowrun 5