The Gaming Den

Tek hustles over to -8, -2, "Wahid, you can handle this, right?" and casts Entangle centered on -15.5, -10.5. "That should keep us from dealing with spell kiting.

What about -18.5, -11.5? That gets the lich and the dinosaur (maybe? I forget how high up it was, if at all) and doesn't get Wahid and also leaves space for me (and others) to attack the dino and/or lich.

It also makes it easier for the lich and pterosaur to escape, since they're on the edges and only need to move one square over (or climb into the air, for the pterosaur). Everyone in the party with the exception of Camilla can make the Ref save on an average roll, and everyone with the exception of Camilla and Tek can break free.

What I can do is target -14.5, -13.5 instead, which still makes it difficult for the Lich to escape, and doesn't effect the pterosaur, since it can just fly up 5' to escape anyway, but allows Kinniku Kaiser and Yoshida to get adjacent to the pterosaur to attack it. Wahid is still in the AoE, but he saves on a 7 or better, and breaks free on a 10 or better.

I suppose it's a danger they could escape, but it's not a very serious danger. Even if they do escape and move 1 square, that's their full round action, so they're pretty boned what with it now being 5 on 2.

If I'm just stalling them a round, I might as well do something else with my action. I'd really rather my turn have a bit more meaning than that.

Ok, I see how stalling two targets for a round is a worthwhile use of a spell slot, having thought for one moment. However, I still feel like it's a less than optimal action, when I could honestly use that same action to deal damage or cast See Invisibility, which would have larger impacts on the battle overall.

Well, using -15.5,-10.5 as the center, assuming the Lich can make the Strength or Escape Artist check (which is probably much less than 50% chance of happening actually) then it could move at half speed to -8,-12 with it's half movement (assuming that is has a base speed of 30ft) and be out of the area. So it'd still be out in one round.

I'm not sure how much meaning you really think an action needs to potentially have though. We've been pretty fine with fireballs and swords and punches so far. It's low level stuff after all. It's an entirely legitimate tactic for one person to just lock down a target from round to round while everyone else stabs that target really hard.

Actually, what I'll do instead is move to -7, -7, and cast Incendiary Grease centered on -11.5, -10.5. That still has a good chance of stalling the lich for the round, doesn't impact our team, and next round I can move closer and drop double flaming hands on the Lich, and possibly the pterosaur.

Tek moves and casts Incendiary Slime. Unfortunately, the lich is still standing.

http://dl.dropbox.com/s/u3m1lkjaasn6lp0/Untitled-1.swf

Lokathor's turn

Initiative

Tek: 24
Yoshida: 18
Lich: 13
Pteranodon
Camilla: 11
Kinniku Kaiser: 8
Wahid: 5

(White Blinding Blow and Green Executioner).

I'll move to -12,-8 and make a Green Executioner attack against the Dino.
+8 to hit against the Dino's AC.
if hit: 1d10+4 damage, and the Dino must make a DC 15 Fort save or instantly die.

Yoshida dodges an attack of opportunity and strikes the Pteranodon for 8 damage (It saves against both Death and Blindness).

Not entirely sure if this next part is legal so I'll take it back if it's not. Man, the flying rules are giving me a headache. It didn't come up yet, but how do you handle movement in a direction like NW and Up (I assumed 5 ft for the first step in this case and didn't do that anymore)?

Lich casts invisibility on Pteranodon (so no AoOs provoked) and readies a move action. Wahid can still sense the Pteranodon though. Pteranodon flies slightly above the ground and the Lich mounts it Legolas style (using readied move action). Pteranodon and lich fly away (Pteranodon uses another move action instead of standard action). Wahid can't sense them anymore, but guesses that they're either 20 or 25 ft above the circle shown on the map based on the last position he sensed them in.

http://dl.dropbox.com/s/u3m1lkjaasn6lp0/Untitled-1.swf

Mask_De_H's turn

Initiative

Tek: 24
Yoshida: 18
Lich: 13
Pteranodon
Camilla: 11
Kinniku Kaiser: 8
Wahid: 5

Okay, since we've got group initiative at this point the turn can go to either Mask_De_H, Ogrebattle or Avoraciopoctules. You guys can decide the order, or the first person to post takes their turn. Either's fine by me.

Going to move over to -1, -12 and ready an action for if the Lich decloaks or someone finds it.

Away from Flash at the moment (netbook's too puny for it), but I'll add this to the screen once I get home from University (could be a while).

Camille uses her move action and waits.

Ogrebattle or Avoraciopoctules make a move. Wahid should probably go next as him moving closer will pinpoint the Lich's exact location as it's 50/50 at the moment.

Away from Flash at the moment (netbook's too puny for it), but I'll add this to the screen once I get home from University (could be a while).

Camille uses her move action and waits.

Ogrebattle or Avoraciopoctules make a move. Wahid should probably go next as him moving closer will pinpoint the Lich's exact location as it's 50/50 at the moment.

Wahid charges after the mounted lich, flailing his fists and swearing profusely.

No line of sight, sorry.

Rules Compendium wrote:If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent you want to charge at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that foe.

...

If you can’t see the target, such as due to being blinded or the target’s invisibility, you can’t have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target’s.

Man... invisibility is awesome.

Also, the lich is 20 or 25 feet in the air, so reaching it would require a high jump DC of 36, or 46 (accounting for the Monk's Abundant Leap) whereas you've got a +11 (if I've done my math correctly, if you used an enlarge person potion, you'd get +1 to jump and a +8 to reach making it d20+12 against 32, so still probably not a good idea). If you just want to move closer that's fine though.

How does jump work together with charges btw?

Not [Charges].

Mechanically, Wahid [Moves] in the direction he thinks the lich went. He [Attacks] a random square nearby.

EDIT: If you need more clarification, Wahid does not move along the Z-axis at all. He stays on the ground, flailing his fists impotently after finishing his X and Y axis movement.

Hate to do this to you after the fact but there's some rollbacks that need to happen.

First question: Does the Pteranodon have 10ft reach? I figured it had 5ft reach since it was large and fat like a horse, not large and tall like a troll. Not a thing that requires a rollback, just a question.

First problem: Invisibility is a Touch range spell. The Lich was not close enough to the Pteranodon to make it invis.

Next Problem (potentially): Myth-weavers seems to be down for me at the moment, but isn't Wahid the one with the blindsight? Is it full Blindsight and not just Blindsense? If so, he could make an AoO on the lich when the lich casts a spell, unless the lich casts defensively. Similarly, he could get an AoO on the lich and/or Pteranodon as they move away from him because the blindsight effectively ignores their invisibility.

Small Note: The dino wasn't being attacked with blindness, I was just listing out the maneuvers I rolled incase anyone wanted to yell at me that I was using the wrong ones or something, which might happen later on, but usually the "save or die" one is a crowd favorite.

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Not [Charges].

Mechanically, Wahid [Moves] in the direction he thinks the lich went. He [Attacks] a random square nearby.

EDIT: If you need more clarification, Wahid does not move along the Z-axis at all. He stays on the ground, flailing his fists impotently after finishing his X and Y axis movement.

Alright. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in University again.

Wahid moves directly below the lich. I'll assume a move action was used up. The rest of the party now knows for sure that the Lich is 25 feet up in the air.

I'll go with Koumei's rulings for charges:

Koumei wrote:

radthemad4 wrote:If I know where an invisible creature is (e.g. via listen checks, scent, another pc with true sight and telepathy), can I charge them?

Apparently not. The rules state you have to be able to see them, no exceptions. I'd argue that as long as you have some means of certainty of their square and size, you're good. But that's my ruling.

What if I don't know, but strongly suspect they're on a particular square?

The rules say no, I would also go that way.

Can I charge an invisible enemy if I detect them with blindsense or tremorsense?

According to the vision thing above, no. It sounds okay to me though.

Can you jump during a charge?

According to RAW, you have to draw the closest straight line to take you from your position to the enemy. So you can only jump if that gives you the diagonal vertical movement needed to reach the enemy. Any jumping for other reasons (such as to clear an obstacle in the path) is disallowed as that makes a wonky line (meaning if you can't run through the intervening square, you can't charge). Exception: you have to make a jump check to benefit from the Leap Attack feat, but that jump check doesn't actually result in you changing course by jumping.

I would probably veer on the side of leniency for that one, letting people jump over intervening obstacles. That might result in somebody making a jump check in a game.

Lokathor wrote:Hate to do this to you after the fact but there's some rollbacks that need to happen.

It's cool. I figured actual play was a good way to get the hang of the rules when I started this game.

Lokathor wrote:First question: Does the Pteranodon have 10ft reach? I figured it had 5ft reach since it was large and fat like a horse, not large and tall like a troll. Not a thing that requires a rollback, just a question.

Yep. Reach, 10 ft.

Lokathor wrote:First problem: Invisibility is a Touch range spell. The Lich was not close enough to the Pteranodon to make it invis.

That is indeed a great point. Er... the lich had cast spectral hand a minute before you guys showed up. Okay, yes, quantum bears, I'll consider doing a rollback once I get back home.

[quote="Lokathor]Next Problem (potentially): Myth-weavers seems to be down for me at the moment, but isn't Wahid the one with the blindsight? Is it full Blindsight and not just Blindsense? If so, he could make an AoO on the lich when the lich casts a spell, unless the lich casts defensively. Similarly, he could get an AoO on the lich and/or Pteranodon as they move away from him because the blindsight effectively ignores their invisibility.[/quote]Blindsense, not sight.

Lokathor wrote:Small Note: The dino wasn't being attacked with blindness, I was just listing out the maneuvers I rolled incase anyone wanted to yell at me that I was using the wrong ones or something, which might happen later on, but usually the "save or die" one is a crowd favorite.

Ah, I thought you got to use both the blindness and the death thing.

Ah, yeah Blindsense is the lesser version. Similarly, Tremorsense and Scent wouldn't allow a charge (you can identify their square only, and with Scent only within 5ft). Blindsight should allow charges though (if it ever comes up).

Similarly, Jumping / Tumbling (with the "full speed" penalty) / etc should all probably be allowed during a charge. The straight line rule is about building up momentum (which is why there's also a 10ft minimum), so as long as you can run and jump at full speed then it should "thematically" be allowed.

Luckily (for me that is) Yoshida and Wahid both rolled 3's (+11 for your and +14 for Wahid which is less than the Pteranodon's AC (16)) (I don't know, I guess the WOTC diceroller likes to repeat itself like the two 20s in a row we saw a while back). Thus I was able to replicate the events almost the same way as before.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/u3m ... tled-1.swf

It's whoever comes online's turn (Camilla and Wahid have used up their move actions)

Tek casts See Invisibility and flips off the lich.

Cool. Now it doesn't have any more miss chances from you and Wahid doesn't have to run around chasing it so he can switch to a more damaging fighting style. I don't feel like reuploading the file for just this though (though it will be mentioned whenever I do upload it).

Keep going Team PC
Move actions used: Camilla, Wahid
Standard actions used: Tek
AoOs used: Wahid, Yoshida

While I could pause and ask you every time whether you want to attack or trip as your AoO, I think it'd be easier if you just tell me. You can apply complex conditions for either as long as I can still understand them.

Well, I'm not totally sold on this "all go in any order" plan, but it'll probably work. I go after Tek anyway, so....

(Burning Brutal Strike, Black Nightmare Blade)

On My Turn: No help on Maneuvers. I'll drop my sword (free action), remove my shield (move action), drop my shield (free action), and draw my bow (move action).

As for AoOs, I suppose I'll attempt a trip if they're Medium or smaller and I have The Edge on them. Even without my sword, I still threaten the space around me (poorly) because of my Bite attack. If they're Large or larger then I'll just hit for damage.

Ok, so here's a weird edge case that needs a ruling-

Conceivably, if everyone held for my action, I could use magic missile to demonstrate where the Lich was, and allow them to target it.

But if we do that, we need a ruling on what effect that would have.