[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

[Archmage Joda]

Honestly, despite its failings and the flak it gets round these parts, I honestly like Psionics. To that end, I am tempted to, between schoolwork, try to alter the power points system to make it at the very least better.

To that end, I would like to make sure I'm clear on what the core problems with it are:

-Augmentation mechanic screwing with scaling and making a Psion essentially spam their highest level powers for a bit before running out of juice
-High level and Low level powers sharing the same pool.

There's probably more that I'm missing, but I think it would behoove my efforts if I knew exactly what the cause of the problem was rather than just the symptom.

Edit: Another Den unconventionality: apparently "thread necromancy" just isn't that big a deal here, as compared to other forums where it'd be an offense enough to warrant locking the thread at the very least...

[CapnTthePirateG]

While we are at it, does anyone have any idea what the hell actually happens when you enter Anima Mage with the "Bind Vestige" and "Improved Bind Vestige" feats? As far as I can tell, you get straight up free binder levels, but some people seem to believe you make up your own progression or you enter the dragon disciple/ur-priest state.

[Emerald]

While we are at it, does anyone have any idea what the hell actually happens when you enter Anima Mage with the "Bind Vestige" and "Improved Bind Vestige" feats? As far as I can tell, you get straight up free binder levels, but some people seem to believe you make up your own progression or you enter the dragon disciple/ur-priest state.

It says "Your anima mage levels and binder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges," etc. etc. etc., so you essentially add binder level and anima mage level together and have the abilities of a binder of that level. There are people that argue that not having any binder levels gives you an EBL of NULL instead of 0, and NULL + X is NULL, and so forth, but I think that's a bit of a stretch.

My interpretation of this is that you hit the dragon disciple/ur-priest state because your 0 levels of binder add to your 1 level of anima mage at 1st level to give you 1 EBL, thereby losing you Improved Bind Vestige, but with only EBL 1 you're unable to bind 2nd level vestiges, so you don't qualify for anima mage, so you lose your EBL and get IBV back, so.... If, however, you take both the first level of anima mage and the Improved Binding feat at 3rd level, you lost IBV, gain an EBL of 1, then Improved Binding counts you as EBL 3 and lets you bind 2nd level vestiges, thereby getting you out of the qualification loop and giving you a binding progression with your anima mage levels.

[Kaelik]

You actually have to have taken Improved Binding in order to qualify for Anima Mage, so therefore no one could ever enter the loop. You have an EBL of 3, and you are a Binder 3, because you actually objectively have 0 levels in Binder, not Null levels of Binder.

So you are actually just getting effectively free Binder levels.

[Prak]

Um, am I missing something? Neither Improved Bind Vestige nor Improved Binding are prerequisites for Anima Mage. Bind Vestige/Improved Bind Vestige may be an optimal way to enter the class, except that by my reading, you'd lose the benefit of Bind Vestige once you went Anima Mage 1 (because you now have 1 effective level of Binder for Soul Binding), and just bind vestiges at your Anima Mage level. So it would seem you have to choose between "Be a pure arcane caster, and spend feats on Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, and a metamagic, and enter Anima Mage unless you're a human or wizard, and start binding as a first level binder, and ignore the strobe PrC argument" or "Be a Binder3/Wiz3(or Sor4) and enter Anima Mage at 6th (or 7th), binding vestiges as a (Binder Level+AM Level) Binder."

[Kaelik]

???

WHY ARE YOU SO GODDAM STUPID PRAK? CAN YOU EVER JUST NOT BE STUPID FOR ONCE?

Of course you can either take actual Binder levels, or take two feats.

If you take 3 Binder levels, then of fucking course you don't strobe, because your Effective Binder level is 3+1, and you meet the pre-req of effective binder level of 3 or greater.

And if you take two feats, the fucking question that was being goddam asked:

While we are at it, does anyone have any idea what the hell actually happens when you enter Anima Mage with the "Bind Vestige" and "Improved Bind Vestige" feats?

Then you also ignore the PrC strobe, because you start binding at 0 + 1 +2 for that goddam feat you took = 3 = enough for you to meet the pre-reqs.

SO YOU NEVER FUCKING STROBE EVER, AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU ARE MISSING IS A GODDAM BRAIN.

[Prak]

So Kaelik, bad fucking day?

You said "You actually have to have taken Improved Binding in order to qualify for Anima Mage". I found nothing saying or implying that. Hence why I was asking.

Stop being such a fucking dickhead.

[Kaelik]

So Kaelik, bad fucking day?

No, it was fucking great. I spend all my time off the internet with people much smarter than you.

Stop being such a fucking dickhead.

Stop being consistently retarded, and you won't even notice. Hell, I might even be less of one. But while I have empirical evidence I can turn off my dickishness when it is required, I have no reason to believe you can stop being an idiot.

[Prak]

A fucking over sight in D&D's stupid weapon rules, and correcting your statement that you "have to take Improved Bind Vestige to be an anima mage" and I'm a retard?

[Josh_Kablack]

Josh, you are being an idiot.

Psions get powers at the new levels.

So would you rather be a Wizard 11 or a Sorcerer 11 with Sorcerer 12 casting, and every spell in every fucking book ever printed as a spell known?

That's way the fuck more powerful, and also, more powerful in a shitty way that is unfun for most people.

Kaelik, you are unsurprisingly reaching new levels of douchebaggery.

Not for the name calling, but for actually baiting me into arguing in favor of psionics.

Congrats on that, and here goes:

A psion 11 has 106 base power points +33 to +66 more bonus from a relevant ability score and probably another handful from feats and items. If they don't just blow their wad on top level powers, they can cast dozens of different powers before they run out of juice, and if you uncap their powers known they'll be so very game-breakingly powerful that only a crazy person would let a class that did that into their game. Oh, wait, we have playtest notes on it from 7 years back. and whoa, it's less powerful than a SpecWiz.

Heck, we even had people suggesting powerups to it in that thread...

Looking this up for no discernable reason, I think the Frank/Sulin Sorcerer or Thaumaasdfnasdlf or whatever, should get bonus metamagic feats that are the ones in Comprehensive Tome Errata, The ones Alpha Nerd made up.

They would be the right addition to this class.

I wonder who said that?



*****



Now of course Archmage Joda's originaly question was specifically about uncapping Psion powers known for progressions above 20th level- which we ignored since we all know that the answer to "what happens if ____ above 20th level?" is "whatever you want, because things stopped making any kind of sense something like 10 levels back", and in that case, there's no point arguing for or against keeping caps on powers known - it's already devolving perilously close to the unresolvable debate about option paralysis and CMwYCPHtC that's part of the Unconventional "Wisdom" around here.



tl:dr: Psi is still shit that makes Vancian look reasonable by comparison, but uncapping known powers on the Psion might make it as good as a tome class, and that's why people hate the idea. Also, Kaelik flip-flops like he's campaigning, and we can't be bothered to read the questions you actually ask,

thank you, come again.

[Kaelik]

1) The Sulin Sorcerer has way fucking less uses per day then a Psion would. Surprisingly, something with half the uses of a Wizard might be less powerful, while something with the same uses from a wider list would be more powerful.

2) Learn to read Josh. He said "More than 36 powers it gets over 20 levels" which of course, does not mean past level 20.

Thank you for claiming I don't read questions in bold large font based on your own inability to read the question. That was hilarious.

[...You Lost Me]

Josh, let's say a Psion 11 will have (106+55 from ability score 30 = 171) power points. A suliin sorc will have 2 6th level spells, 3 (5th), 3 (4th), 4 (3rd), 4 (2nd), 5 (1st), and 2 (0th)-level spells. If we equate those spells to power points, that's 2(11)+3(9)+3(7)+4(5)+4(3)+5(1)=107 (not including cantrips, which we don't care about).

So not only would psions get to cast everything, but they also could cast MORE of everything per day, and also gained feats, and also could burn pp into 6th-level spell slots for MORE access to the high-level abilities. In fact, using all 6th-level slots means about 15 powers per day, compared to the suliin sorcerer's 23 spells per day. If you don't count cantrips and the 1st-level spells which are effectively weak crowed control, that falls down to 16 spells. About the same as a psion, but less powerful.

Now I'm not going to stick my opinions further into this conversation, but the math here seems to favor the power (in addition to the versimilitude, and the bonus feats) of the psion over the suliin sorc.

[Archmage Joda]

So, it seems that the correct courses of action are first to not do that thing I asked about doing earlier, and then to either rewrite the whole power point and augmentation system, or go with one of the homebrew psions I've seen from links I've found on the den, either that Psychic class on the d&d wiki which uses spheres, or that one in the homebrew forum.

[K]

1) The Sulin Sorcerer has way fucking less uses per day then a Psion would. Surprisingly, something with half the uses of a Wizard might be less powerful, while something with the same uses from a wider list would be more powerful.

Yeh, the Sulin Sorcerer teaches the lesson that "a huge amount of versatility can be offset by a restrictive enough use per day limits." It doesn't say that "versatility is not unbalancing as it goes up."

This means that the Psion's already unrestricted per day limits gets super unbalanced as versatility goes up. I mean, they only get a few uses if they spam max power points each time, but that's not what people are really going to do and setting the balance point at that is as deceptive and bad as pretending they'll spam level 1 powers that don't allow additional point expenditures.

If I were going to Tome-ify the Psion, I'd half the powers known and just let people use them at will at no point costs (also, I'd set some "Power Point Value" based on level to make those power's effects big enough to be meaningful like point were being expended, but not so big as to be "psionics broken").

[cthulhudarren]

What is the Den's opinion on the 3.5 bard BTW?

I'm going to be in an urban setting game and the flavor of my character was drug addicted alchemist but I have no idea how to best fit that into 3.5 DnD (starting at 1st level).

[BearsAreBrown]

Bard has UMD and pretty good spells. Strangely, his music is one of the weakest class features.

[echoVanguard]

To that end, I would like to make sure I'm clear on what the core problems with it are:

-Augmentation mechanic screwing with scaling and making a Psion essentially spam their highest level powers for a bit before running out of juice
-High level and Low level powers sharing the same pool.

I'd really like some further elucidation on the problems these mechanics cause, if folks are willing.

echo

[RobbyPants]

Bard has UMD and pretty good spells. Strangely, his music is one of the weakest class features.

If PHB2 is available, you could probably just play a Beguiler, tell people you're a Bard, and just never worry about Bardic Music.

[CatharzGodfoot]

As Robby says, the beguiler is what the bard should have been.

The 3.5e bard, however, is not a weak class. You just have to use tactics that are generally considered abusive (enchantment, umd), and/or bonus whore your Inspire Courage.

[Koumei]

There also tend to be a lot of feats and stuff in splat-books that allow Bards to add their Charisma as untyped bonuses to various things, so you can stack them up with 2xCha to saving throws, Cha to attacks and damage at least once, etc.

Granted, it involves dumpster-diving (which is a key trait of the Bard and other "It isn't useless but it's not Easy Mode" classes), and won't help you at level 1 (generally has requirements that equate to "X levels of Bard!"), but no-one cares too much at level 1.

[Archmage]

Also, you can take levels in Sublime Chord if the game lasts long enough, which is a pretty reasonable thing to do if you want to be a quasi-sorcerer with more skill points and a better BAB and the power to convert Bardic Music uses into something actually good (namely caster level bonuses). You can't take your first level until 11, but once you get there it's pretty cool, and the class is actually not OP or whatever if you aren't multiclassing again to abuse the insane caster level formula.

[Archmage Joda]

So, setting aside the bard stuff for a period of time no less than this post, another dennism I've seen but don't know the story behind: what is this "giant frog" business?

[A Man In Black]

So, setting aside the bard stuff for a period of time no less than this post, another dennism I've seen but don't know the story behind: what is this "giant frog" business?

Slaad are far too uniform and organized to be chaotic. In fact, chaos doesn't make any fucking sense any way you look at it. In fact, it doesn't make any sense for chaos to have uniform rules. Since chaos and law are complete nonsense and basically exist for no reason other than to have two team names, chaos is Team Giant Frog.

[...You Lost Me]

So, setting aside the bard stuff for a period of time no less than this post, another dennism I've seen but don't know the story behind: what is this "giant frog" business?

I believe there was a post in one of the Tomes about how insanity is, by definition, trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. And so that's what pure chaos (slaad) is. So while the armies of law are defined by what is necessary in every course of battle, the army of chaos is literally made up entirely of giant frogs.

[Red_Rob]

To that end, I would like to make sure I'm clear on what the core problems with it are:

-Augmentation mechanic screwing with scaling and making a Psion essentially spam their highest level powers for a bit before running out of juice
-High level and Low level powers sharing the same pool.

I'd really like some further elucidation on the problems these mechanics cause, if folks are willing.

echo

The main problem with a power point system used in conjunction with D&D's levelling system is that high level powers are explicitly better than low level powers. Now, whilst out of combat you will have a plethora of options available, this means that in a combat situation where you are trying to take down the enemy as fast as possible there is absolutely no incentive to use anything other than your best high level power every time until you run out of power points. I mean, if you can use Colour spray, Deep Slumber or Dominate Monster you are going to go for Dominate every time. This leads to repetitive and boring characters that spam their best trick every round.

So, setting aside the bard stuff for a period of time no less than this post, another dennism I've seen but don't know the story behind: what is this "giant frog" business?

It's based on a section of the tomes discussion on Law and Chaos:

Some DMs will want Law and Chaos to mean essentially "Sane" and "Insane". That's fine, but it doesn't mean that Chaos is funny. In fact, insanity is generally about the least funny thing you could possibly imagine. An insane person reacts inappropriately to their surroundings. That doesn't mean that they perform unexpected actions, that's just surrealist. And Paladins are totally permitted to enjoy non sequitur based humor and art. See, insanity is when you perform the same action over and over again and expect different results.
In this model we get a coherent explanation for why, when all the forces of Evil are composed of a multitude of strange nightmarish creatures, and the forces of Good have everything from a glowing patch of light to a winged snake tailed woman, every single soldier in the army of Chaos is a giant frog. This is because in this model Limbo is a place that is totally insane. It's a place where the answer to every question really is "Giant Frog". Creatures of Chaos then proceed to go to non Chaotically-aligned planes and are disappointed and confused when doors have to be pushed and pulled to open and entrance cannot be achieved by "Giant Frog".