Video Games

[Kaelik]

It's like you forgot Diablo II existed. See, they had this thing called a closed server. It was a lot like they had now, except there was a single player button to go with it. It lets them do all of your three bullet points without the DRM, except 3 but 3 is the stupidest of the bunch anyway, because they aren't encouraging multiplayer 'by making you feel jealous,' they are forcing you to play multiplayer directly. If they wanted to make you jealous, they would enable single player and not put awesome item drops in it.

Except that a closed server + single player a) increases the likelihood of people gaming the system, b) decreases the demand for auction house items by having a bunch of people on single player who can't use the auction house. Which I already explained.

As for 3, learn to read, I didn't say they encourage multiplayer by making you jealous, I said they encourage multiplayer, and the fact that you are playing multiplayer makes you jealous. People who play multiplayer are going to want to keep up with the Joneses more, and therefore be more likely to use the auction house.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Unrelated question: why do MMORPG have such a white-knuckled fear of the Real Money Economy when there's stuff like DLC? Or rather, why don't they just snatch the profit out of money-farmers' hands by offering the goods themselves? Would that offend more people than would pay money?

[DSMatticus]

Except that a closed server + single player a) increases the likelihood of people gaming the system

Gaming the system? How? Diablo II closed server was already almost entirely server-side. Seriously. There is absolutely nothing D3 does that could not have been done on D2. Abso-fucking-lutely nothing. Because D3 is D2's closed server idea, set to exclusive mode. There are some improvements, if I'm not mistaken (server-side world generation to get rid of maphack of whatever), but again: that's not something that is incompatible with single player. At all.

Would that offend more people than would pay money?

It tends to. People seem to be more offended when money=advantage than time=advantage. Apparently, they care less about their time than their money.

[ishy]

Apparently d3 also has some kind of carebear level, and with something that looks like unicorns or something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQzJC-v ... re=related

[Kaelik]

Apparently d3 also has some kind of carebear level, and with something that looks like unicorns or something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQzJC-v ... re=related

Pretty sure it's the greatest troll ever of the people who were whining about Diablo 3 having bright colors and rainbows from some screen shots years ago.

[Koumei]

Diablo 2 had a secret Cow Level - they like their joke levels. And well, fans saw screenshots and videos early in development and complained that "It's not GRIM AND DARK enough, Diablo 2 was GRIM AND DARK, this is all UNICORNS, RAINBOWS AND CAREBEARS!"

Blizzard ran with the joke, doctoring some "extra sparkly" screenshots and making a MLP-style "official D3 artwork" to troll them. So going the full distance and making that level? Yeah, I'd believe it. The best bit is that it annoys hardcore D2 fans, who can fuck right off.

And yeah, it's not about the DLC. It's about them deciding they need to sell you shit for real monies, and so if you play single player, you won't do that because A) you don't need to keep up with the Joneses, and B) you'll just hack the game. So fuck them, just play Torchlight instead.

[Fuchs]

Unrelated question: why do MMORPG have such a white-knuckled fear of the Real Money Economy when there's stuff like DLC? Or rather, why don't they just snatch the profit out of money-farmers' hands by offering the goods themselves? Would that offend more people than would pay money?

Beats me. Most MMOGs are filled with shitty grinding time sinks, just so people stay subscribed longer. I'd pay at least as much to skip all that shit, and only play the fun parts of an MMOG.

But the MMOgs apparently target the teenagers who have ample time, and not ample money, and therefore fuck over the rest.

[name_here]

Unrelated question: why do MMORPG have such a white-knuckled fear of the Real Money Economy when there's stuff like DLC? Or rather, why don't they just snatch the profit out of money-farmers' hands by offering the goods themselves? Would that offend more people than would pay money?

Basically, a bunch of people get shat on by those richer than they are in real life, and would like to be able to play video games without that happening. And aside from people who would unsubscribe as a direct result of that, a bunch of their friends would go play other MMORPGS with those people because they liked the social aspect and the social aspect can salvage the shittiest MMO. Then the server populations might drop to the point where people with no direct connection with any of those people would leave because they can't find any public groups. So they're probably not going to do that.

[ishy]

Aren't mmos huge grinds for gear?
Why would people grind for gear if they already have bought the best gear?

[RobbyPants]

I haven't played Diablo 3 yet, but I will be soon. I've heard (at least in the Beta) that playing a Demon Hunter is playing on easy mode. Is this the case, or was that just true in Beta?

It seemed like a fun class to play, but I don't want to be bored out of my mind.

[ishy]

Honestly, I've had diablo 3 installed for a couple of days now, but haven't played it either.
Everytime I think about starting it up, I load up D2 instead.
Everything I read about it while it was in beta, just made me uninterested in D3 I guess.

But I signed up for the Torchlight 2 beta weekend yesterday, and I got into that.
So guess I'll be playing TL 2 when I get home tonight.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So why do MMORPG fans rebel against it much harder than traditional/offline gaming fans? I mean, at least in an MMORPG you still have the opportunity to get your Rainbow Codpiece even if you can't pay up for it. But in a, say, CCG if you don't pony up the money for the latest expansion set the game designers and the fanbase will tell you tough cookiepuss.

[hyzmarca]

So why do MMORPG fans rebel against it much harder than traditional/offline gaming fans? I mean, at least in an MMORPG you still have the opportunity to get your Rainbow Codpiece even if you can't pay up for it. But in a, say, CCG if you don't pony up the money for the latest expansion set the game designers and the fanbase will tell you tough cookiepuss.

When you buy a Magic: The Gathering expansion pack, you're buying a physical product that someone had to print, package, and distribute. That physical product is extremely overpriced cardboard, but it does have real value. You can even hypothetically resell it on the collectors market (I do remember when rare pokemon cards were going for thousands of dollars each because that speculation bubble crashed).

When you but an item in a game, you're literally getting nothing by a hex code added to a specific spot in your save, which refers to an item in your game installation.

You've literally already paid for the thing. It's there on the disk you bought. You're getting nothing but a pair of numbers that tell the game to reference a particular memory space when you you open your inventory.

Second, and probably more importantly, it's about earning your way. You get items by playing the game. If you don't play the game but instead buy items, you're effectively cheating. It doesn't work that way with CCGs. Wizards of the Coast doesn't automatically send you a new card if you win X number of pickup games. In an MMOI, power, prestiege, and rank comes from investment of real effort and contribution to the social experience. Buying power and rank pissess on the buys who have spent yes of playing and building up relationships with other players.

[ishy]

So why do MMORPG fans rebel against it much harder than traditional/offline gaming fans? I mean, at least in an MMORPG you still have the opportunity to get your Rainbow Codpiece even if you can't pay up for it. But in a, say, CCG if you don't pony up the money for the latest expansion set the game designers and the fanbase will tell you tough cookiepuss.

Offline computer games, don't interact with other players. So they don't care I guess.
And you might not be able to get the rainbow codpiece in the mmorpg.
If you don't buy the latest expansion in a mmo they'll also tell you tough cookiepuss.

Some players are also afraid that if you do implement real money items, that you'll be forced to buy them to compete.
But I guess the real-money auction house in D3 might get implemented in wow if it is a success.

[Lago PARANOIA]

When you buy a Magic: The Gathering expansion pack, you're buying a physical product that someone had to print, package, and distribute.

People will let me use a YGO card I found on the side of the road as long as it wasn't too banged up, but they won't let me use a slip of cardboard that says 'This Card Represents Monster Reborn'. Not even if I paid a lot of money to sex the slip of paper up and make it look even better than the official artwork. What I actually have is a token and a pass to play the game the way I want to -- which is no different from paying money to unlock content.

In an MMOI, power, prestiege, and rank comes from investment of real effort and contribution to the social experience. Buying power and rank pissess on the buys who have spent yes of playing and building up relationships with other players.

So why is it okay to buy those things with time, but Koresh forbid it's done with money?

Some players are also afraid that if you do implement real money items, that you'll be forced to buy them to compete.

But you already have to devote dozens of hours to compete on the top end.

[Koumei]

Is it really so hard to understand, or have you personally just set fire to "being halfway intelligent" as a goal?

You've already paid the fucking money for the game when you bought or subscribed to the game. This does not apply to Free-to-play microtransaction games of course, but they're largely shit anyway.

Furthermore, investing time in a game is something you're supposed to do: it's meant to be fun. Sure, most MMOs miss that point and turn them into jobs that basically exist to punish you for not playing and make your life more miserable on the whole, much like being addicted to the drug of your choice, but in theory, you're supposed to enjoy investing time in it. You're not setting time on fire playing a game you hate just so you can get the Sword of Mad Limos, Bitches and Pecs. You're playing the game for fun, you like the game, and as an added bonus you might eventually get the Sword of Mad Limos, Bitches and Pecs.

Therefore, if you're "doing it right", time does not equal money. The two are not equal investments.

And yeah, if you want a world where the rich are awesome and get whatever they want and can (both figuratively and literally) shit all over the poor, you don't actually have to play a video game, you can play Real Life (the latest in Actual Reality games - going beyond Virtual Reality and coming to a store near you billions* of years ago). Video games are about escapism, so you don't actually want that shit.

*Sorry, creationists, you have a very shitty niche OS so you only got it thousands of years ago. But you'll still get Life it before a Mac user does. Oh, burn!

[Starmaker]

So why is it okay to buy those things with time, but Koresh forbid it's done with money?

When you are buying it with time, you are sort of obliged to not be a dick to other people, due to necessary group work or just a need to socialize. Those who pay real money just walk in, unzip their pants and lay their cocks on the table.

The game starts revolving around paying customers's cocks. You'll have several competing groups, each of which has a core membership of cock-on-table founding members (ranked by how much money they "invest"), then their RL acquiantances, then rank-and-file players who just did not want to miss on important aspects of the game. Depending on the group, the rank-and-file can be forced to donate money or stupid amounts of in-game resources, the collection of which occupies all of their game time. Many of them are seriously kids who think if they work really hard they'll be one day permitted to take part in a castle siege "when they have their own arms and armor", but what they actually do is play 8 resource farmers and donate everything they collect until the heat death of the universe. Oh, and they are "encouraged" to share their account credentials.

Seriously, I am disappoint that one of the most socialist Den posters defends real money in MMORPGs. Being a virtual slave, once a person is committed to playing, is seriously no better than being a slave in real life; real money MMORPGs, for people who are not mentally capable to quit, are dystopian to a point that Somalia or North Korea could never be. The only difference is ease of rescue.

[Starmaker]

Resonance (2d graphical adventure game, [awesome]) is available for preorder.

$8.99 worldwide for a DRM-free digital copy (including soundtrack).
$24.99 including worldwide S&H for a boxed version: box, CD with game and extras, poster, DRM-free download (or Steam key if you hate yourself, your choice) on release.

You also have my word, whatever it's worth, that the dev is personally awesome. Like a mirror-universe David A. Hill.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Is it really so hard to understand, or have you personally just set fire to "being halfway intelligent" as a goal?

No, I think people just have feelings of misplaced rage and resentment and are justifying it by special pleading.

You've already paid the fucking money for the game when you bought or subscribed to the game.

So? You already paid the fucking money for the initial copy of your core books / starter deck / boxed set / initial army array / non-MMORPG video game disc. Why should you have to pay even more money for additional content like rules that let you do alternate things or 'official' tokens when you could just print out something similar on card stock? Hell, at least an MMORPG lets you do the time/money tradeoff at all.

You're playing the game for fun, you like the game, and as an added bonus you might eventually get the Sword of Mad Limos, Bitches and Pecs.

So what's with the resentment towards the guy who paid for the Sword of Mad Limos, Bitches, and Pecs? They're paying money to avoid having fun. It'd be like getting mad at someone who paid for an Ultimate Paintball participation t-shirt when they were handing them out for free for people who played the monthly free promotional game all afternoon. The emotion you should feel for this guy is pity or bemusement, not weird class resentment.

When you are buying it with time, you are sort of obliged to not be a dick to other people, due to necessary group work or just a need to socialize. Those who pay real money just walk in, unzip their pants and lay their cocks on the table.

See above comment to Koumei. I think that this is really weird special pleading, since the vast majority of social games already work like this. Seriously, is someone a dick because they walk in to play Autobots with their shiny 199.99 Ultra Magnus doll when the second-most expensive Transformer at the table is a 20.00 Optimus Primal? Or what about their special promotional Charizard/Squirtle/Ivysaur Pokemon cards they got for attending the NintendoCon?

The game starts revolving around paying customers's cocks.

Why can't the non-paying customers just put in the extra hours like they already do? If the game in of itself is fun, why get mad at the people who leapfrogged them?

You'll have several competing groups, each of which has a core membership of cock-on-table founding members (ranked by how much money they "invest"), then their RL acquiantances, then rank-and-file players who just did not want to miss on important aspects of the game. Depending on the group, the rank-and-file can be forced to donate money or stupid amounts of in-game resources, the collection of which occupies all of their game time.

You mean like the in-game segregation that already happens, but with play hours replacing money?

Seriously, I am disappoint that one of the most socialist Den posters defends real money in MMORPGs. Being a virtual slave, once a person is committed to playing, is seriously no better than being a slave in real life; real money MMORPGs, for people who are not mentally capable to quit, are dystopian to a point that Somalia or North Korea could never be. The only difference is ease of rescue.

I don't even know what this means.

[name_here]

I think basically the main difference from CCGs with MMOs is that CCG players consist entirely of people who are willing to play a game in which spending more real-world money equates to more power in-game, while MMO players are not all willing to play such a game. In fact, one of the top reasons people stop playing CCGs is that they get sick of having to keep buying new cards.

I don't think there's some abstract moral principle that provides the difference, it's just that people who don't want real money to provide more power in-game have already stopped playing CCGs.

[Fuchs]

We already have a game where those with more spare time can enjoy their hobbies more - it's called real life. Why should MMOGs favor those as well?

[ModelCitizen]

Are people talking about selling levels and raid gear, or just selling gold? Selling levels/gear would indirectly lead to players becoming dissatisfied and quitting even if they weren't opposed to it on principle, but selling gold might be doable. (You'd probably have to cap the amount of gold a player can buy per time to control inflation, but I can't see any reason you couldn't sell gold instead of charging a monthly subscription fee. Aside from that your players might hate you for it, I mean.)

[Whatever]

The main reason to stick with a subscription fee model is that subscription fees bring in more cash money. Millions of people are willing to put down $10-$15 a month in subscription fees, and that adds up.

By contrast, companies that use a microtransaction model, like Zynga, depend on a few big spenders for their profits. That's a difficult model to implement for an MMO, because you need to keep everyone playing in order for the big spenders to have any reason to spend.

[Koumei]

We already have a game where those with more spare time can enjoy their hobbies more - it's called real life. Why should MMOGs favor those as well?

Not without money we don't.

[Fuchs]

The problem with MMOGs is that a lot of their content is not fun to start with.

If people would rather pay than level grind your game sucks.