Moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:28 am

You are not following this at all.

Being insecure about your partner's ability to commit because they change their hair every couple weeks is comically dysfunctional. It is the kind of thing that ends up the plot of a sitcom episode about the goofy asshole Costanza-type character. It's not slutshaming, though.

Being an asshole to your partner because you are insecure about their ability to commit is being an asshole, which is redundant to say, I suppose, of course being an asshole is being an asshole. People have insecurities like that, of course, and it's not really their fault, but being an asshole about them is still being an asshole. It's still not slutshaming, though.

Bringing up your partner's exes in relation to your insecurity about their ability to commit is almost textbook slutshaming. "I'm not your first so how do I know this is serious" is just... you're literally giving them shit for being 'impure,' for not being romantically/physically/sexually virginal. It's not the only way you can slutshame someone, but it sure as fuck is a kind of slutshaming.

This has nothing to do with Ramona's 'commitment issues'. Ramona having commitment issues isn't really established in the film at all. What is established is that Scott is afraid that Ramona has commitment issues, and that fear drives the second act conflict between Scott and Ramona. That fear is introduced to the viewer when he gets super-bummed out about her dying her hair. He starts being a bit of an asshole about it, generating conflict/tension between the two. As the evil ex thing kicks into full gear, he throws her exes in her face as part of questioning her ability to commit.

Pilgrim's 'I'm insecure' arc runs through all three of the things I described above before it resolves itself by being forgotten by the film as though the only shitty thing he's done is be too wimpy to break up with Knives properly - which means he is a comically dysfunctional slutshaming asshole.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: Scott Pilgrim

The comics are carried almost entirely by the funky visual style and some pretty spot-on nostalgia about being a 20 something who's into rock. It's well established pretty early in the story that Scott is a terrible human being. So, when they decided to make it a non-animated movie, I decided to not watch it. Sometimes Hollywood should take a harder look on what makes something successful before trying to adapt it.

I also thought it was funny that the movie came out in 2010, with the Great Recession in full force, and at least in the comic, Scott's family is affluent and too nice to him, coming to his rescue by renting him a new apartment. No idea if this is in the movie, but if it is, it should also ruin about a lot of the empathy young people could still be having about the story.

SlyJohnny · Post by **SlyJohnny** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:32 pm

DSMatticus wrote: This has nothing to do with Ramona's 'commitment issues'. Ramona having commitment issues isn't really established in the film at all. What is established is that Scott is afraid that Ramona has commitment issues, and that fear drives the second act conflict between Scott and Ramona. That fear is introduced to the viewer when he gets super-bummed out about her dying her hair. He starts being a bit of an asshole about it, generating conflict/tension between the two. As the evil ex thing kicks into full gear, he throws her exes in her face as part of questioning her ability to commit.

Ramona treated all her evil exes fairly badly (except Gideon, who abused her). She usually dated them for temporary, frivolous, selfish reasons, didn't make that state of affairs entirely clear to them, and then ruthlessly and abruptly cut them off when the wind blew a different way. That IS established in the film; the "is there anyone in this room you haven't slept with" line is unfortunate and bad, but that's not what's Scott has so much insecurity about. It's how she treated her evil exes and how quickly she ditched them, because that's exactly how he treated Kim and Knives and probably most of his exes except Envy.

I dunno, I've been on both sides of it (misrepresenting how intensely I feel about someone while I want to maintain a relationship with them, and falling for a perfect, stunningly attractive manic pixie dreamgirl who gave every indication of being obsessed with me right until the opportunity to upgrade came along). Seeing Scott's kind of behaviour from the outside was useful and instructive, and I found his redemption arc to be believable and heartening.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:55 pm

nockermensch wrote: I also thought it was funny that the movie came out in 2010, with the Great Recession in full force, and at least in the comic, Scott's family is affluent and too nice to him, coming to his rescue by renting him a new apartment. No idea if this is in the movie, but if it is, it should also ruin about a lot of the empathy young people could still be having about the story.

His family other than his sister don't enter into the movie. She works multiple blue collar jobs, he works none, but doesn't seem to have any luxuries (his attire, decor, transportation and diet seem to be on the cheap). These both seem relatable.

Maybe I'd have some haterade for the movie if I came from the comics or game first, but maybe not. I enjoy the kooky visuals, I enjoy the characters, I enjoy the movie as a whole.

Now something that lost me. Allison Mack, my Smallville crush from ages past, is a sex trafficking cult member (leader?). Da fuck?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:05 am

I have pretty much the opposite opinion as Nockermensch on all of this. I always thought the cloying band stuff was another example of how up-his-own-asshole Scott was.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:31 am

erik wrote:Now something that lost me. Allison Mack, my Smallville crush from ages past, is a sex trafficking cult member (leader?). Da fuck?

Huh-wha?

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:42 am

Shrapnel wrote:
erik wrote:Now something that lost me. Allison Mack, my Smallville crush from ages past, is a sex trafficking cult member (leader?). Da fuck?
Huh-wha?

I'd heard there was some peripheral connection, but apparently she's just been arrested and facing serious charges.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:43 am

DSMatticus wrote:You are not following this at all.

Being insecure about your partner's ability to commit because they change their hair every couple weeks is comically dysfunctional. It is the kind of thing that ends up the plot of a sitcom episode about the goofy asshole Costanza-type character. It's not slutshaming, though.

Being an asshole to your partner because you are insecure about their ability to commit is being an asshole, which is redundant to say, I suppose, of course being an asshole is being an asshole. People have insecurities like that, of course, and it's not really their fault, but being an asshole about them is still being an asshole. It's still not slutshaming, though.

Bringing up your partner's exes in relation to your insecurity about their ability to commit is almost textbook slutshaming. "I'm not your first so how do I know this is serious" is just... you're literally giving them shit for being 'impure,' for not being romantically/physically/sexually virginal. It's not the only way you can slutshame someone, but it sure as fuck is a kind of slutshaming.

This has nothing to do with Ramona's 'commitment issues'. Ramona having commitment issues isn't really established in the film at all. What is established is that Scott is afraid that Ramona has commitment issues, and that fear drives the second act conflict between Scott and Ramona. That fear is introduced to the viewer when he gets super-bummed out about her dying her hair. He starts being a bit of an asshole about it, generating conflict/tension between the two. As the evil ex thing kicks into full gear, he throws her exes in her face as part of questioning her ability to commit.

Pilgrim's 'I'm insecure' arc runs through all three of the things I described above before it resolves itself by being forgotten by the film as though the only shitty thing he's done is be too wimpy to break up with Knives properly - which means he is a comically dysfunctional slutshaming asshole.

When your SO's exes are all literally trying to murder you, I think it's fair to bring them up. One ex trying to murder you, that's annoying. Seven exes trying to murder you is sort of a pattern.

But maybe I'm just a weirdo who considers being required to engage in a series of fights to the death to be a bit abnormal in a relationship.

erik wrote: Now something that lost me. Allison Mack, my Smallville crush from ages past, is a sex trafficking cult member (leader?). Da fuck?

My understanding is that it's more of a world domination cult that uses BDSM trappings in its brainwashing exercises.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:45 am

I'm not sure you're trying to understand this conversation.

Pilgrim does not just bitch about all the people trying to kill him, which is another thing that would not be slutshaming. He bitches about how he doesn't know if he can trust Ramona not to dump his ass, which starts with freaking out about her dying her hair and is comically dysfunctional but not slutshaming, but then it quickly escalates to bringing up her exes. Please understand that "I'm upset that your ex is trying to murder me because I'd like to not die" is very different from "I'm upset that your ex exists because now I can't trust our relationship." This movie has both of those things in it, but that still doesn't make them the same thing.

Questioning the 'authenticity' of people based on them having a romantic history before you is... really quite creepy. It is particularly insulting when you realize the implication of the dialogue between Pilgrim and his sister early in the film is that Pilgrim has left a trail of flaming wreckage behind him as he sleazed his way from one relationship to another and the only difference between him and Ramona is that he has a dick and is a much bigger dick.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:58 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
erik wrote:Now something that lost me. Allison Mack, my Smallville crush from ages past, is a sex trafficking cult member (leader?). Da fuck?
Huh-wha?

Your tasteless joke of the day is that after winning several Teen Choice Awards for her work in Smallville, she decided to try to win some MILF No-Choice Awards for her work in recruiting women in their late twenties and early thirties into a life of forced sexual servitude through blackmail and torture.

On a more serious note, the line between victims and perpetrators in these sexual exploitation organizations is quite blurry. One of the main ways the organization perpetuates itself is by blackmailing people with stuff they've already done to do ever more outrageous things that will in turn be used as blackmail material for future demands. So most of the tormenters are themselves acting under duress and once they torture another victim the fact that they have done that is used by the organization to have even more control and so on.

The whole Xvim thing sounds like one of those things that would be super hot for those involved as a sex game where the torture and blackmail wasn't real - but is way over the line into monstrosity if it actually is. Likely most of the people involved had things ramped up on them quite gradually, where the sex games were "just for fun" until there was a considerable amount of blackmail material had been accumulated and the victims were far away from physical as well as emotional safety.

-Username17

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:34 pm

Holy Christ, that's... freaking insane. What drives a person like Allison to do something like that?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:38 pm

Seriously, it's in the post right above yours.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:44 pm

Oh huh. My reading comprehension isn't really all that great before 2pm.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:00 am

DSMatticus wrote:I'm not sure you're trying to understand this conversation.

Pilgrim does not just bitch about all the people trying to kill him, which is another thing that would not be slutshaming. He bitches about how he doesn't know if he can trust Ramona not to dump his ass, which starts with freaking out about her dying her hair and is comically dysfunctional but not slutshaming, but then it quickly escalates to bringing up her exes. Please understand that "I'm upset that your ex is trying to murder me because I'd like to not die" is very different from "I'm upset that your ex exists because now I can't trust our relationship." This movie has both of those things in it, but that still doesn't make them the same thing.

Questioning the 'authenticity' of people based on them having a romantic history before you is... really quite creepy. It is particularly insulting when you realize the implication of the dialogue between Pilgrim and his sister early in the film is that Pilgrim has left a trail of flaming wreckage behind him as he sleazed his way from one relationship to another and the only difference between him and Ramona is that he has a dick and is a much bigger dick.

She doesn't just have history, though. She has profoundly bad history though. There's a huge gulf between an amicable breakup and a bad one. And a larger gulf still between a bad breakup and a breakup so bad that it drove your ex to supervillainy. One is a tragedy. Once it hits seven, you have to start wondering if maybe it's not the exes who are driving that outcome.

And yeah, Scott also has a lot of bad history. The two don't cancel out.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:34 pm

hyzmarca wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:I'm not sure you're trying to understand this conversation.

Pilgrim does not just bitch about all the people trying to kill him, which is another thing that would not be slutshaming. He bitches about how he doesn't know if he can trust Ramona not to dump his ass, which starts with freaking out about her dying her hair and is comically dysfunctional but not slutshaming, but then it quickly escalates to bringing up her exes. Please understand that "I'm upset that your ex is trying to murder me because I'd like to not die" is very different from "I'm upset that your ex exists because now I can't trust our relationship." This movie has both of those things in it, but that still doesn't make them the same thing.

Questioning the 'authenticity' of people based on them having a romantic history before you is... really quite creepy. It is particularly insulting when you realize the implication of the dialogue between Pilgrim and his sister early in the film is that Pilgrim has left a trail of flaming wreckage behind him as he sleazed his way from one relationship to another and the only difference between him and Ramona is that he has a dick and is a much bigger dick.
She doesn't just have history, though. She has profoundly bad history though. There's a huge gulf between an amicable breakup and a bad one. And a larger gulf still between a bad breakup and a breakup so bad that it drove your ex to supervillainy. One is a tragedy. Once it hits seven, you have to start wondering if maybe it's not the exes who are driving that outcome.

And yeah, Scott also has a lot of bad history. The two don't cancel out.

But you're clearly weighing one over the other with word count.

And at least in the comics, Gideon creates the Seven Evil Exes out of a drunken fit of narcissistic rage. Before that, they're regular fucking exes with superpowers because anime.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:50 pm

MdH wrote:And at least in the comics, Gideon creates the Seven Evil Exes out of a drunken fit of narcissistic rage. Before that, they're regular fucking exes with superpowers because anime.

That's pretty much the story in the movie too. The part where Scott gets all weirded out by the whole thing is fairly understandable since at that point he doesn't have that backstory and is just informed that there are a group of evil exes who have super powers. I think it's reasonable to freak out about the number of exes your girlfriend has after finding out that her exes have formed a supervillain group.

Anyway, yes Scott Pilgrim's life and relationships with the people around him are pathetic. The ending is that he tries equipping the Power of Love and it's insufficient and he has to use an extra life to respawn and equip the Power of Self Respect to get his own shit together. I mean, it's not so much a secret metaphor as it literally explains in the moral in giant glowing letters with numbers attached.

-Username17

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:02 pm

I told myself I'd rewatch the movie before jumping in since I saw it when I was eighteen-ish and wasn't super aware of the kinds of issues being discussed. But since Frank brought it up, I will say that my interpretation of the ending was very much that the point was that Scott was relying on relationships to bolster his self-esteem and fix all his problems, and that this was very explicitly insufficient for him to overcome the last boss. When Gideon asks if Ramona is really worth it, Scott's original run line is that she is. When he comes back the second time, he says he's doing it for himself, because Gideon has personally antagonized him and that on its own is grounds enough to throw down regardless of whether or not his relationship with Ramona works out. The moment when Scott gets the power to defeat Gideon is the moment when he stops fighting Gideon to try and win Ramona as a prize and instead starts fighting Gideon because fuck Gideon and everything he stands for. Because instead of using his girlfriend as a proxy to justify standing up for his indie rock values, he's going to stand up for them just because they are his values. He even gets a little monologue about why he despises Gideon in principle on top of the direct hostility between them.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:39 am

I feel like this is proving way more difficult than it should.

Scott does not just have a "what the fuck is up with your exes trying to murder me" character arc in which he is reasonably angry about people trying to murder him and Ramona doesn't want to talk about her awkward past and it drives conflict. Note the word 'just,' which in this context is a synonym for 'only,' in that that exact character arc absolutely exists but it is not the only character arc going on with Scott.

Scott also has a "how the fuck do I trust someone like her" character arc in which he is insecure and paranoid about his budding relationship with Ramona and is a bit of a cock about it to her. That arc starts with Ramona dying her hair and Scott calling her 'fickle,' and it's pretty blatantly ridiculous. Inoffensively so, in the way that Costanza is such a known dickbag his dickbaggery is not offensive it's just another Seinfeld episode about what a dickbag he is.

But that shit doesn't just get introduced and dropped. It gets incorporated into the Scott-Ramona conflict about the evil exes with Scott responding to lines like "[you're] what I need right now" with "... but not later?" and other really quite uncomfortable gems, and while that kind of insecurity is probably relatable to many people, it's still really, really scummy to throw people's exes in their face like that. Particularly once you realize it's sexist as shit, and that men almost never have to deal with that sort of thing and women put up with it all the time - it's an extension of the "men with lots of history are good at getting partners, women with lots of history are bad at keeping them" mentality. It's probably even deliberately scummy, what with the entire gimmick of the source material being that Scott is a shitty person and the evil exes are a metaphor for emotional baggage and ugly breakups presented to you in a way such that you are watching Scott transform his insecurities into heroic narratives where lashing out makes him the Good Guy.

The movie ends with Scott discovering the Power of Self-Respect or whatever, but that final redemption fails massively because the film presents Scott's old relationships as legitimate relationships to which he could return and that's just... fucking baffling. The choice between Knives and Ramona is a "WTF, movie?" moment. It is a super-WTF moment when you realize the original ending had him choosing Knives - that's the movie acknowledging some portion Scott's flaws, but failing to acknowledge what he's allowed those flaws to do to the people around him. The movie pulls a literal Scott Pilgrim and forgets that other people matter.

It's just a disastrously executed ending. Scott is redeemed not by any action he takes to repair or correct the damage he's done, he's redeemed by gaining a bit of confidence, and that's the Good Ending because Scott was the only one who mattered anyway.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:39 am

...and then at the end he gets the pick of the girls as his prize. It's still a little wince-worthy.

It's a fun movie in part because Scott Pilgrim is explicitly an asshole and all of his friends know it. There's a little character growth at the end, when Scott fesses up that he lied and cheated on both women, and then he kills the bad guy and...gets a stupid Hollywood happy ending. Which is fine. It's not pretending to be great cinema. People want to see him end up with a chick.

And it's still fucking less blatant and terrible about it as Ready Player One.

erik · Post by **erik** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:51 am

Ancient History wrote:And it's still fucking less blatant and terrible about it as Ready Player One.

Motherfucker yes. Ready Player One was a shitfest of shitty shitstains, their shittery and scatophagy. Sadly character relationships/"romance" was probably only about fifth on my list of things I hated about it.

The characters were all unlikeable, unrelatable fucks. The setting was about as consistent and well thought out as any Harry Potter story, that is to say, fuck all. The dialog was largely just juvenile swearing, not even future swears, sandwiched between fecaltudinous piles of exposition. Like, my pre-ten year old kids would be just as creative, and that's only because I haven't given them the green light to cuss freely. For a generation that has effectively grown up on the internet, if you're gonna cuss then you better have some magic there. I feel like I need to rewatch Hitman's Bodyguard just to learn to love cuss words again. RP1 fucking ruined cussing for me.

Caveat, I only did the audiobook, not the movie. The movie looked pretty, but you'll have to threaten to slam my dick in a car door to get me to watch the movie since I truly doubt they rose to the challenge of polishing that turd.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:08 am

Ancient History wrote:And it's still fucking less blatant and terrible about it as Ready Player One.

Alright, how about some nice warm cup of SEETHING RAGE: (and also, spoilers about the movie - the only version of RP1 I got)

Do you remember how at the start of RP1, the protagonist (bargain bin Michael Cera) is living in a 3D trailer park/junkyard and then he escapes to virtual reality every day because his real life sucks?

But then, after he beats the ultimate 80's trivia challenge, he becomes the owner of the virtual reality and the second change he makes about the game is TURNING IT OFF 2 DAYS A WEEK. Because, get this, he wants people to enjoy living in the real reality, too.

Well, that kind of turns nicely enough for him since he's by then a billionaire that's also making out with bargain-bin Emma Watson. But WHAT ABOUT ALL THE KIDS FROM THE 3D TRAILER PARK (who incidentally looked up to him as their hero)? Those favela kids are now forced to face abject poverty and despair for two entire days a week because they should learn to enjoy life. Realizing this shitty shitty moral lesson kind of ruined the last shred of goodwill I had about RP1. It really, really sucks.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:16 am

nockermensch wrote:
Ancient History wrote:And it's still fucking less blatant and terrible about it as Ready Player One.
Alright, how about some nice warm cup of SEETHING RAGE: (and also, spoilers about the movie - the only version of RP1 I got)

Do you remember how at the start of RP1, the protagonist (bargain bin Michael Cera) is living in a 3D trailer park/junkyard and then he escapes to virtual reality every day because his real life sucks?

But then, after he beats the ultimate 80's trivia challenge, he becomes the owner of the virtual reality and the second change he makes about the game is TURNING IT OFF 2 DAYS A WEEK. Because, get this, he wants people to enjoy living in the real reality, too.

Well, that kind of turns nicely enough for him since he's by then a billionaire that's also making out with bargain-bin Emma Watson. But WHAT ABOUT ALL THE KIDS FROM THE 3D TRAILER PARK (who incidentally looked up to him as their hero)? Those favela kids are now forced to face abject poverty and despair for two entire days a week because they should learn to enjoy life. Realizing this shitty shitty moral lesson kind of ruined the last shred of goodwill I had about RP1. It really, really sucks.

Those kids will have a lot of company, though. Because in setting the virtual reality has replaced the internet for all purposes and he's literally shutting down the entire global economy on the weekends. We talking trillons of dollars worth of loses worldwide.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:33 am

I went to the movie for all the pop culture references and GUNDAM. Kept my expectations pretty low and wasn't disappointed.

hyzmarca wrote: Those kids will have a lot of company, though. Because in setting the virtual reality has replaced the internet for all purposes and he's literally shutting down the entire global economy on the weekends. We talking trillons of dollars worth of loses worldwide.

"trillions of dollars worth of losses worldwide" sounds fairly realistic if you gave a small group of filthy rich teenagers full authority over the global economy.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:54 am

erik wrote:Motherfucker yes. Ready Player One was a shitfest of shitty shitstains, their shittery and scatophagy.

Found this recently and it was pretty funny, a podcast from some of the guys who did MST3K/Rifftrax. They review RP1 and Armada:
http://372pages.com/

Spoiler alert: his next book Armada is even worse, if you can believe it.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:19 am

So just to recap how bad RP1 is:

In the intro where the video will sets up the treasure hunt the there are two errors that I spotted. First the wrong year is listed in the visual identifying the song used. Second the tech billionaire misidentifies the first video game to feature an Easter egg. But what truly damns the book is that none of the detail-obsessed characters who have dedicated their lives to solving the puzzle ever notice either of those errors.