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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard »

Laertes wrote:I'd like to hear this rant; not because I have an opinion of my own but because I like hearing people rant. What's hilarious about drow?
They get disadvantage on attacks in daylight, which matters like jack shit where you find drow and makes them borderline unplayable in a regular campaing, unless you dungeon crawl like a motherfucker. They also get the uber darkvision and dancing lights at-will... because Drizzt still haunts that race and they really, REALLY have so much use for that. In the dark. With the best darkvision. Yup.
Having a 1/day faerie fire from level 3 up is cute and all, but unless you are a caster, or something support-y, you will feel really stupid for playing the elf that betrayed Jesus and got his skin turned red... wait... I forgot they filed the serial numbers off of that... who betrayed Corellon and got his skin turned black.

The whole thing reminded me of the equipment drow had back in the day, that turned to dust in daylight, so players don't get to keep it. "here's a drow. don't play one"
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Post by Voss »

Rawbeard wrote:how is not having 1 point of dex a trap? You repeat that over and over, but how does having ac 17 differ from ac 16 in a way that you can say "well, this race does not work for anyone ever"? And if you wear medium armor your dex of more than 14 doesn't matter anyway for that part of your defenses. So... wtf? in light and no armor you'll get curb stomped anyway, so again, why care?

I really don't get what the deal is with that. At all.
Well, considering most of the classes that work for them even partially can't wear medium armor, thats a non-issue. Unless you peel more points off the RNG to burn on a feat, of course. But in that case, you're going to have to wait until level 12 to have your numbers match up to where they should have been at level 1.

As to why care...it has to do with the way the math works. You either set things up to be level appropriate from level 1, or you never are. There simply isn't any give in the systems to explore cutesy options, and the way monsters are set up (which are often fucking brutal in damage output), minimizing ways the game can just screw you is the number goal of character creation, and that means, as much as possible, maximizing output and defense as much as possible. Its just like running a Int 12 Wizard in 3e. You can do so, but it is a blatantly stupid option.
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard »

ok, light armor, ac 14 or 15. big fucking difference! this does not look like 4e scaling, so why care?
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Post by Amalie Gaston »

On the plus side for drow, their bonuses are sufficiently mediocre that you can drop the light sensitivity thing and immediately make them a playable, not over-powered PC race. Well, that's a plus insofar as being able to easily houserule away stupid ideas is a plus.
Last edited by Amalie Gaston on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

Rawbeard wrote:ok, light armor, ac 14 or 15. big fucking difference! this does not look like 4e scaling, so why care?
I'm not sure why this is hard for you. There are only a handful of points where the player has any impact over the math of the game, character creation being the biggest one. Why would you intentionally set your ability to affect each round of every combat for the entire campaign lower than it needs to be?

You're advocating trading a bonus to attack AND defense AND Initiative AND a major save category for a non-bonus (it's +1 Int, and only even numbers matter) to something that has almost no mechanical affect on anything you ever do... forever.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by animea90 »

Rawbeard wrote:how is not having 1 point of dex a trap? You repeat that over and over, but how does having ac 17 differ from ac 16 in a way that you can say "well, this race does not work for anyone ever"? And if you wear medium armor your dex of more than 14 doesn't matter anyway for that part of your defenses. So... wtf? in light and no armor you'll get curb stomped anyway, so again, why care?

I really don't get what the deal is with that. At all.
Its not going to make you significantly worse, just worse. Yes, you can play a tiefling, but you would be better off mechanically playing something else.
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Post by 8d8 »

Voss wrote:There are only a handful of points where the player has any impact over the math of the game...
Are spells and magic items that improve numbers not in the game? Or are you assuming that using those at all times is a given?

Is the "I'm 5% worse but I can freely do this cool thing" tremendously bad? How hard is it to reproduce the benefits a race gives you? If you spend something to get X, is what you spent more costly than that 5%?
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Post by Username17 »

8d8 wrote:Is the "I'm 5% worse but I can freely do this cool thing" tremendously bad?
That depends. One of the things the game that the designers have been fapping to is the idea of "bounded accuracy." Now, they have actually failed to deliver that, but the concept is that difficulties and defenses are in a fairly narrow range and low level threats continue to be threatening at all levels. The specific example is that at 10th level you could get attacked by a pile of Orcish warriors. Not like four hundred Orcish warriors, but just like a few dozen. They'd be the same Orcish warriors you faced at 1st level, but in modestly larger numbers.

If your DM does that, then missing out on defense of any kind is simply unacceptable. You're going to be subjected to dozens of Orc attacks, each with a low odds of connecting, so having an AC even one point lower means that during the combat you'll be taking something between 25% and 100% more damage. And that's obviously where Voss is coming from with his giant hard on for armor class.

But here's the thing: bounded accuracy is horseshit. There are also big ticket enemies for medium and high level characters to fight, and they have attack bonuses that break the RNG in half. The Green Dragon whelp from the introductory adventure has like 12 points of attack bonus on an Orc warrior. Getting an extra point of AC against that bad boy is just a 5% chance that you live to see round 3.

If your DM pulls out the RNG breaking baddies, only offense matters because your defenses mean roughly jack and shit. That changes the whole equation, where suddenly your offense stat is totally primary and probably Wisdom is secondary because not acting in the first round is just like committing sepuku with a frisbee.

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Post by Voss »

It is partly the dozens of attacks.

But keep in mind that dex also helps you act first in the round via initiative. And the number of things you save against through dex are probably at least 10x the number of things you save against through int (or str, or cha for that matter. Possibly int and str and cha).

Int affects 5 skills and around maybe 5 saving throws so far. Not types of saving throws, but literally 5(ish) individual saving throws against specific spells and abilities. Dex affects numerous broad categories that affect you all the time, and will come up, at the very least once every combat (initiative). If it is also factoring into your AC and attacks, obviously a lot more. Putting any sort of resources into Int if you are not a wizard is fucking crazy. The same is true for charisma and strength unless you are a class that uses those things. Dex, Con and Wis simply contribute more, so a race that contributes to those stats alongside the primary stat is simply better.* And when it comes to point buy, with such a low maximum, your points will have to spill over into other abilities, so you might as well make them abilities that matter.


*and also in the case of the tiefling, their other abilities are also shit. Compare the tiefling and the half elf:
same charisma bonus, but the half-elf can add one to any stat instead of just intelligence
both get dark vision
fire resistance vs advantage vs charm and immunity to sleep. None of these are outright winners, but sleep immunity is a fucking You Don't Lose at low levels.

thaumaturgy cantrip. Whatever. Hellish Rebuke- out of turn ability to damage someone for hitting you. Cute bonus, but 1/day is shitty. Same with darkness, except darkness can also screw you and your party.

Now, instead of some shitty spells, the half elf gets proficiency in perception (bonus vs getting banked) and one other skill, which is mildly dubious given how MTP most of the skills are. But it is a rising bonus against whatever random DCs you get afflicted with. The half-elf also gets to ignore multi classing requirements. Not always going to come up, but may make diving for some customization options easier.

Just on the floating stat bonus and perception alone, I'd take half-elf over tiefling any day of the week. Those bonuses affect shit that actually matters all the time, rather than a grab-bag of mildly useless crap, half of which has 1/day limits.
8d8 wrote:Are spells and magic items that improve numbers not in the game? Or are you assuming that using those at all times is a given?
Well, with spells, obviously not all the time, as limited resources, durations and concentration all come into play. But yes. I am assuming you're going to be using your magic items and spells. The wizard is going to have mage armor up, or find something that provides roughly the same benefit. People are going to use spells to boost their damage numbers and defenses when appropriate.
Is the "I'm 5% worse but I can freely do this cool thing" tremendously bad? How hard is it to reproduce the benefits a race gives you? If you spend something to get X, is what you spent more costly than that 5%?
Well, it depends. If it is actually a cool thing, then... maybe. But we've been talking about the tiefling. It legitimately has no cool things. If you want to play up uber-cool-emo demonic ancestry, just make up some shit in your background and say so. The race is shit.

On the other hand, when I first looked at the standard human, the +1 stat to everything looked pretty awesome. Better numbers everywhere. But with the reality of how the point buy system works and how attributes work... it doesn't matter. The human often comes out slightly (2 or 3 points) ahead on a useless stat vs the basic rules' best race/class combos. And with some combinations (the mountain dwarf fighter) not even that. And in the face of the laundry list of actual racial abilities, those minor useless stat numbers don't matter.

The variant human (which gets a feat), is a whole other story, however, because they can dumpster dive into all sorts of crazy shit, including better armor, damage resistance, the ability to wreck face on low-AC enemies with two handed weapons, or even shit like observant which can give a bonus to wisdom and gives a flat +5 to passive perception, which combined with proficiency in perception breaks the stealth RNG. Alertness gives +5 init and immunity to surprise, and no one gets advantage on you for being hidden, which is good vs ganking and makes alpha-strike offense easy-peasy.

So yes, there are things you can trade raw numbers for. But they legitimately have to matter. By any measure Rawbeard's Tiefling never qualifies as mattering for anything. Just having a higher AC is flatly better than anything the tiefling does. And dex doesn't just do that. And any other racial choice also has its own laundry list of better stuff.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
animea90
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Post by animea90 »

8d8 wrote:
Voss wrote:There are only a handful of points where the player has any impact over the math of the game...
Are spells and magic items that improve numbers not in the game? Or are you assuming that using those at all times is a given?
Players aren't allowed to buy magic items. Instead the GM chooses which items the party gets from quests/in dungeons. So that is not a control point.

Also, its a common misconception that 1 point of anything=5% worse. If you get hit in an 11 or greater, 1 point decreases damage by 10 percent. If you get hit on a 19 or greater. 1 point decrease damage by 100 percent.

AC is a stat that progressively gets better the more you have.
Last edited by animea90 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Voss wrote:The variant human (which gets a feat), is a whole other story, however, because they can dumpster dive into all sorts of crazy shit, including better armor, damage resistance, the ability to wreck face on low-AC enemies with two handed weapons, or even shit like observant which can give a bonus to wisdom and gives a flat +5 to passive perception, which combined with proficiency in perception breaks the stealth RNG. Alertness gives +5 init and immunity to surprise, and no one gets advantage on you for being hidden, which is good vs ganking and makes alpha-strike offense easy-peasy.
You'd think that Mike Mearls and friends would've learned by now that balancing an option by giving it early access to a list of options that are monotonically expanding can only end in rage and tears. But nope.

@anime90 Wait just one goddamn minute here. I thought that magic items in 5E D&D were randomly rolled, like in 2E D&D?
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Pixels »

animea90 wrote:Players aren't allowed to buy magic items.
Really? What exactly is an adventurer supposed to do with that wagon full of gold she retrieved from the dragon's lair?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Pixel wrote:Really? What exactly is an adventurer supposed to do with that wagon full of gold she retrieved from the dragon's lair?
Spend it on booze, hookers, new castles, l33t gear for your followers, delicious banquets, bribes for the city guard, etc.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Rawbeard »

So gold is worthless, you can't keep items not marked as loot, what is the point of adventuring again?

This is so "nobody will play this by the book" I almost believe that is an intentional 2e throwback.
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Post by Voss »

To get magic items. (alternately, for the challenge. Or the social experience, or in-character motivations) This isn't exactly unprecedented, either in terms of D&D or elsewhere.

As far as items go, people spend literally hundreds of hours playing Diablo, ignoring anything but the rare drops. The same psychology is involved.
Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Voss wrote:The variant human (which gets a feat), is a whole other story, however, because they can dumpster dive into all sorts of crazy shit, including better armor, damage resistance, the ability to wreck face on low-AC enemies with two handed weapons, or even shit like observant which can give a bonus to wisdom and gives a flat +5 to passive perception, which combined with proficiency in perception breaks the stealth RNG. Alertness gives +5 init and immunity to surprise, and no one gets advantage on you for being hidden, which is good vs ganking and makes alpha-strike offense easy-peasy.
You'd think that Mike Mearls and friends would've learned by now that balancing an option by giving it early access to a list of options that are monotonically expanding can only end in rage and tears. But nope.
Learn something? Haha. The magic initiate feat alone potentially breaks any race that gets 1/day spells as their thing. Because it gives two cantrips and 1 spell 1/day. If 1 spell you can cherry pick off of the cleric, druid, sorcerer warlock or wizard spell list is better than anything the race can give you, that race is a pretty bad choice. And since sleep is always a choice and you can use it even on tough monsters that get down to low hp, they're going to be hard pressed to demonstrate that any 'innate spell' race is better than just being a 'variant human.' And that is only with magic initiate, and not any of the better feats.*

For example, druids have terrible armor options. Either hide or leather (and they need multiple feats to get real armor, since they don't have light armor proficiency, the can't take medium armor proficiency) Pull mage armor with magic initiate, and its a flat increase. Take some close combat cantrips (which druids lack, so shocking grasp or chill touch) at the same time, and the druid benefits a great deal (since the feat uses your existing spell casting stat if you're already a spell caster)

*there are also, of course, fairly shit feats.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by animea90 »

Pixels wrote:
animea90 wrote:Players aren't allowed to buy magic items.
Really? What exactly is an adventurer supposed to do with that wagon full of gold she retrieved from the dragon's lair?
The game doesn't really have anything for you to spend the gold on yet. If you are a heavy armor user, you will spend a few levels saving up for a nice set of full plate, but after that there isn't much that can enhance your adventuring.

People generally assume that you will spend that money on buying a castle or followers, but that only works in certain campaigns. I have no idea what a wandering adventurer will spend his gold on(and thats the most common playstyle). And so far we have not seen any good rule system for handling followers or mass combat.

Imagine that I do decide to spend my gold at high levels on buying an army, how will that play out mechanically? We have no idea.

Also, I find the "monster loot isn't sellable" rule very weird because there is very little to spend gold on. The rule ensures that the party can't acquire gold unless the GM lets them, but there is no reason to care about that. Its not like 3.5 where getting super rich will throw off encounter design.
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Post by animea90 »

Voss wrote:To get magic items. (alternately, for the challenge. Or the social experience, or in-character motivations) This isn't exactly unprecedented, either in terms of D&D or elsewhere.

As far as items go, people spend literally hundreds of hours playing Diablo, ignoring anything but the rare drops. The same psychology is involved.
There definitely are more reasons to adventure, but money is arguably the most common quest hook in RPGs. It provides an easy way to invest both the player and their character in an adventure and can apply to almost any character. With gold and magic items becoming considerably less useful, its going to be much trickier to develop plot hooks that will invest the entire party.

To me, this shows how out of touch 5e developers are with the game. Maybe in their games all the players are good RPers with proper backstories and complex motivations for adventuring, but a substantial portion of their playerbase doesn't do that.

Edit: To put it bluntly, the GM is going to have a much harder time appealing to murder hobos.
Last edited by animea90 on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Voss »

animea90 wrote:
Voss wrote:To get magic items. (alternately, for the challenge. Or the social experience, or in-character motivations) This isn't exactly unprecedented, either in terms of D&D or elsewhere.

As far as items go, people spend literally hundreds of hours playing Diablo, ignoring anything but the rare drops. The same psychology is involved.
There definitely are more reasons to adventure, but money is arguably the most common quest hook in RPGs. It provides an easy way to invest both the player and their character in an adventure and can apply to almost any character. With gold and magic items becoming considerably less useful, its going to be much trickier to develop plot hooks that will invest the entire party..
Sure, but you're going to want money for the first few levels, so you can buy that plate mail, half-plate, or start accumulating money for expensive spell components and for healing potions. Once you've got a couple grand under your belt, it is going to stop mattering, but initially you can run hooks based on cash. Then you run hooks off of how the campaign has played out so far.

I really don't see it as a big deal- even a single background hook from each player can go far, and players being players, they're going to piss people off just through normal interactions. If the campaign keeps going on for a while and you're still relying on cash as a plot hook, there is something wrong, either with the players or with you.

I'm not sure where the 'magic items are considerably less useful' comes from though. The murder hobos will happily slaughter hundreds for Efreet Chainmail rather than +1 Chainmail.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by infected slut princess »

It used to be impossible to break down a door locked with a mastercraft lock. Now you can get proficiency bonuses and Strength boosters and whatnot. So I guess it's theoretically possible for a player to break down such a door.

But what's the deal with Monster stats? Apparently they include proficiency bonuses? But doesn't that mean a Storm Giant still only gets a +9 and cannot therefore break down a door? This game is retarded.
Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.
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Post by Dogbert »

Pixels wrote:
animea90 wrote:Players aren't allowed to buy magic items.
Really? What exactly is an adventurer supposed to do with that wagon full of gold she retrieved from the dragon's lair?
My personal guess is: Purchasing every skill available in game via training in Tools as long as you can bullshit your neckbeard of a DM into how tools X, Y, an Z will allow you to do things you want to do in game.

...except training takes 90 days per tool, so the players better be good team players so everyone at the table declare themselves on strike on downtime so the DM has no choice but to either concede or TPK you all (and then go play something that isn't crap).
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Post by animea90 »

infected slut princess wrote:It used to be impossible to break down a door locked with a mastercraft lock. Now you can get proficiency bonuses and Strength boosters and whatnot. So I guess it's theoretically possible for a player to break down such a door.

But what's the deal with Monster stats? Apparently they include proficiency bonuses? But doesn't that mean a Storm Giant still only gets a +9 and cannot therefore break down a door? This game is retarded.
5e has made it very clear there are going to be different rules for players and npcs. That part of 4e is being preserved.

Their goal is to streamline and simplify things and if it results in NPCs who can't do anything other than interact with PCs, thats a sacrifice they are willing ot make.
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Post by animea90 »

Voss wrote:
animea90 wrote:
Voss wrote:To get magic items. (alternately, for the challenge. Or the social experience, or in-character motivations) This isn't exactly unprecedented, either in terms of D&D or elsewhere.

As far as items go, people spend literally hundreds of hours playing Diablo, ignoring anything but the rare drops. The same psychology is involved.
There definitely are more reasons to adventure, but money is arguably the most common quest hook in RPGs. It provides an easy way to invest both the player and their character in an adventure and can apply to almost any character. With gold and magic items becoming considerably less useful, its going to be much trickier to develop plot hooks that will invest the entire party..
Sure, but you're going to want money for the first few levels, so you can buy that plate mail, half-plate, or start accumulating money for expensive spell components and for healing potions. Once you've got a couple grand under your belt, it is going to stop mattering, but initially you can run hooks based on cash. Then you run hooks off of how the campaign has played out so far.

I really don't see it as a big deal- even a single background hook from each player can go far, and players being players, they're going to piss people off just through normal interactions. If the campaign keeps going on for a while and you're still relying on cash as a plot hook, there is something wrong, either with the players or with you.

I'm not sure where the 'magic items are considerably less useful' comes from though. The murder hobos will happily slaughter hundreds for Efreet Chainmail rather than +1 Chainmail.
Imagine that your PCs want to play pirates or bounty hunters. Neither of these professions are supported in a game where gold becomes useless fairly quickly.
Last edited by animea90 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Voss »

animea90 wrote:
Voss wrote:
animea90 wrote:
There definitely are more reasons to adventure, but money is arguably the most common quest hook in RPGs. It provides an easy way to invest both the player and their character in an adventure and can apply to almost any character. With gold and magic items becoming considerably less useful, its going to be much trickier to develop plot hooks that will invest the entire party..
Sure, but you're going to want money for the first few levels, so you can buy that plate mail, half-plate, or start accumulating money for expensive spell components and for healing potions. Once you've got a couple grand under your belt, it is going to stop mattering, but initially you can run hooks based on cash. Then you run hooks off of how the campaign has played out so far.

I really don't see it as a big deal- even a single background hook from each player can go far, and players being players, they're going to piss people off just through normal interactions. If the campaign keeps going on for a while and you're still relying on cash as a plot hook, there is something wrong, either with the players or with you.

I'm not sure where the 'magic items are considerably less useful' comes from though. The murder hobos will happily slaughter hundreds for Efreet Chainmail rather than +1 Chainmail.
Imagine that your PCs want to play pirates or bounty hunters. Neither of these professions are supported in a game where gold becomes useless fairly quickly.
Unless they get paid in magic items. Or want to steal magic boats. Or... any number of things. Playing pirate becomes a non-issue with level anyway as it is pretty mundane low-level stuff (fireball and fly pretty much void any challenge from mundane piracy), and bounty hunters explicitly have a reason to get piles of magic from the people they hunt. As they level, the prey is going to get more difficult and have more stuff.

You're reaching too hard to make this an issue. There are literally thousands of ways to motivate players. And I have never once encountered murder-hobo players that need a reason to go kill shit. Do anything complex? Sure. But not go adventure and kill things.
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Post by Dogbert »

So basically it's Numenera all over again, with magic items so "priceless" that they're actually worthless.
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Post by Insomniac »

We're in the 4 round/1 hour off era. Everything like Fighter powers or a Rogue abilities recharge every hour. God forbid they use the phrase "Encounter power" and get everybody in a 4E snit.

Nobody gets bonus spells from ability scores so people cast one of two of their highest spells a day and then they're just about tapped out.

The whole system seems shoddily predicated on systematically taking
time off to get the more powers and spells.

What do you do when 5.0 has a shorter adventuring day than Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Minute Adventures?
Last edited by Insomniac on Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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