What's D&D/PF like if you take out full casters?

[Ghremdal]

So what is a 10th level challenge that requires a PC full caster to solve? Not just more difficult/expensive, but requires?

[ishy]

They seem to be interpreting the last line of "You can still use Widen Spell normally if you have it." as allowing it to stack.

I mean, they are seriously proposing that they have an 18th level dragonwrought (to take epic feats) kobold spell to power erudite (who is getting access to all the spells via the generic spellcaster out of unearthed arcana to make any spell arcane in the first place) cast a custom Genesis tailored plane for him.

For just the cost of a ninth level spell and the xp.

A guy that can cast literally any spell in the game (because that's the premise) is expected to take gold pieces in exchange for a demiplane.

You think the widen stacking is the issue here?

If the build fails to account for basic core rules, then I can't be arsed to read on.

But that is hilarious, since a draonwrought kobold doesn't actually qualify for epic feats, yet they use flaws. And since flaws hand out bonus feats, you can actually use those to grab some epic feats.

- Edit:

So what is a 10th level challenge that requires a PC full caster to solve? Not just more difficult/expensive, but requires?

Absolutely nothing. Because the DM can just throw solutions at the non-casters. Casters just don't rely on the DM as much.

For example, in my last session, the DM made sure everyone could breathe underwater at level 2, so we could have an underwater adventure. I'm sure if we needed to assault an air castle, we would be able to get an airship etc.

[Koumei]

Well before you say "Not just more expensive", tell me how it is you will guarantee items that let you See Invisible/Dimension Door/Fly/Interact With Ethereal Shit.

Sure, if the game is starting at level ten and you do the standard thing where you tell players "You have 49K to spend on gear, buy whatever you want", then they might actually have some of that (although it does compete with their need for Magic Weapons, Magic Armour, Save Boosters, Natural/Deflection AC Boosters, Ability Score Boosters...)

But if they happen to have gained all their wealth through random item drops and some amount of "sell for 50% value, see what the local stores have available, oh hey, they have six wands of first-level spells, ten scrolls, magic pipes of door-opening and a +2/+1 Flaming Dire Flail!" then I guess they're fucked, aren't they?

[Ghremdal]

- Edit:

So what is a 10th level challenge that requires a PC full caster to solve? Not just more difficult/expensive, but requires?

Absolutely nothing. Because the DM can just throw solutions at the non-casters. Casters just don't rely on the DM as much.

For example, in my last session, the DM made sure everyone could breathe underwater at level 2, so we could have an underwater adventure. I'm sure if we needed to assault an air castle, we would be able to get an airship etc.

Ok, but that mostly falls into the getting to the adventure part. Which means PC's can (should) rely on NPC support (be it spellcasting, magic items purchase, services) to get there. I mean the MC is being a dick if the adventure is on a flying caster and the PC's can't get there because one of them is not a wizard.

Sure the MC provides the way, but does that within the confines of the system.



Assuming standard WBL and magic shops (and access to Metropolis style areas), what challenges a 10th level party without a full caster CAN'T handle, while one with a full caster can?

Detecting invisible things, flying (or killing flying creatures), teleporting short distances and dealing with incorporeal/ethereal shit can be done with low level spells and inexpensive magic items. That even parties that find only random loot can afford.

[ishy]

I mean the MC is being a dick if the adventure is on a flying caster and the PC's can't get there because one of them is not a wizard.

Sure the MC provides the way, but does that within the confines of the system.

And the DM is a dick if he puts swarms against PCs who can't deal with them. Unless he provides them with swarm killing tools.

Assuming standard WBL and magic shops (and access to Metropolis style areas), what challenges a 10th level party without a full caster CAN'T handle, while one with a full caster can?

I assume you're talking about combat only challenges? If so, do you mean something like the Same Game Test? Because if not, you can just grab things like candle of invocations, artifact weapons, amulets which turn you into a tiger etc and just solve every problem through wishes.

[Ghremdal]

Yes, I'm mostly focused on combat challenges, so you could apply the Same Game Test.


As for swarms, there are magic items that replicate spells that can deal with swarms. Hell even alchemists fire ad acid flasks can work, albeit slowly.
At level 10 area spells are also available to non full casters as well that can deal with swarms.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Assuming standard WBL and magic shops (and access to Metropolis style areas), what challenges a 10th level party without a full caster CAN'T handle, while one with a full caster can?

Detecting invisible things, flying (or killing flying creatures), teleporting short distances and dealing with incorporeal/ethereal shit can be done with low level spells and inexpensive magic items. That even parties that find only random loot can afford.

For this challenge, the foe should be resistant to a lot of partial caster tricks as well as fighting mans. Okay, a Movanic Deva who kites with a bow and an item storing a single casting of Fickle Winds

[erik]

So what is a 10th level challenge that requires a PC full caster to solve? Not just more difficult/expensive, but requires?

This isn't a very reasonable question.

Having the exactly correct equipment or spec'd out characters will often be equivalent to having a full caster. The full caster just gets to basically replicate TONS of magic equipment via their casting. Typically it is not about what cannot be defeated, but what can be reliably defeated. If you go from 1% chance of TPK up to 10%, that's damned significant.

On top of it all, a CR 10 challenge for a level 10 party isn't supposed to be that scary. Just a tough fight that costs 25% of your resources.

So I propose some EL 10 encounters that while not guaranteed to defeat a non-full caster party, odds are good that they're gonna get fucked up.

• A brood of 3 Aboleths is supposed to be an acceptable encounter. They get Greater Invis, 3x Dominate apiece, along with nigh unlimited illusion magic. I would not expect a non-caster party to survive that (after 1-2 get dominated that's pretty much game), but it is not guaranteed doom.

• A Celestial Hellwasp Swarm would be nasty (Cold, Electricity, Acid and Fire resist 10), but not certain doom, because equipment could still save the day.

• Davy Jones. Half-Dragon Cachalot Whale Monk 1.
10 Grapple
20 Drag to bottom of the ocean
30 Goto 10

[Kaelik]

So what is a 10th level challenge that requires a PC full caster to solve? Not just more difficult/expensive, but requires?

A Mature Adult Black Dragon, a Nalfeshnee, a Nightwing.

As for swarms, there are magic items that replicate spells that can deal with swarms. Hell even alchemists fire ad acid flasks can work, albeit slowly.
At level 10 area spells are also available to non full casters as well that can deal with swarms.

At level 10 you should be able, with a party of four, to fight 8 Hellwasp swarms at once with 50% success rate. Or fight two, then another two, then another two, then another two with 95% success rate.

Level 10 non casters can expect to die to both those things. They could use alchemist flasks or wands of fireball to kill them... about four minutes after they died.

[Ghremdal]

This isn't a very reasonable question.

Having the exactly correct equipment or spec'd out characters will often be equivalent to having a full caster. The full caster just gets to basically replicate TONS of magic equipment via their casting. Typically it is not about what cannot be defeated, but what can be reliably defeated. If you go from 1% chance of TPK up to 10%, that's damned significant.

On top of it all, a CR 10 challenge for a level 10 party isn't supposed to be that scary. Just a tough fight that costs 25% of your resources.

I agree with you that having a full caster makes things easier and less expensive. We all know that. The question is there a encounter where you absolutely have to have a full caster?

Because if there is not, then a game without full casters doesn't change all that much. The MC can still use the same old challenges as before, just the PCs have to deal with them differently (by expending more resources, time, etc).

Going by pathfinder from now on:

So I propose some EL 10 encounters that while not guaranteed to defeat a non-full caster party, odds are good that they're gonna get fucked up.

• A brood of 3 Aboleths is supposed to be an acceptable encounter. They get Greater Invis, 3x Dominate apiece, along with nigh unlimited illusion magic. I would not expect a non-caster party to survive that (after 1-2 get dominated that's pretty much game), but it is not guaranteed doom.

I don't think aboleths get access to greater invisibility, but yeah the dominates are rough if you are not prepared for them. IF the party is prepared, protection from evil et al low level spells make the encounter basically a non issue.

A Mature Adult Black Dragon, a Nalfeshnee, a Nightwing.

Going by pathfinder, I don't see why those monsters pose a big problem to a party made of non full casters. Sure they fly, but at level 10 so can the PC's.

As for 8 Hellwasp swarms, well unless you have a blaster sorcerer in the party, a unprepared party with a full caster will have a bad time with those as well.

[Midnight_v]

Going by pathfinder

.../thread

[Kaelik]

A Mature Adult Black Dragon, a Nalfeshnee, a Nightwing.

Going by pathfinder, I don't see why those monsters pose a big problem to a party made of non full casters. Sure they fly, but at level 10 so can the PC's.

I'm not sure where you think these people are flying? They don't have casters, are they spending 60,000 on wings of flying at level 10? That is going to drastically reduce their fucking stats in combat.

Now look at them in D&D. Because that was what I gave the list for, but changing to a Old Black Dragon which is the same CR in Pathfinder, I notice that Pathfinder picks the spells for their dragons and they pick shitty spells, so that is somewhat of a problem, but the Dragon still flies faster than any PC ever could and breath weapons, so it still probably kills the party.

The Nalfashnee also has a 1d10 round AoE daze, Feeblemind at will, Call Lighting at will, DR 10/you aren't going to pass it, and hey, he could probably beat the shit out of a fighter.

The Nightwing has 7d6 AoE, three kill spells, and unholy blight at will to go with his flying, and of course Greater Dispel Magic if you try to fly for less than 60,000gp.

And another CR 14 in Pathfinder is the Formian Queen, with at will Charm and Hold Monster and spells like Teleport, Wall of Force, and Prismatic Wall.

I have no idea how you think a level 10 party could possibly deal with that.

As for 8 Hellwasp swarms, well unless you have a blaster sorcerer in the party, a unprepared party with a full caster will have a bad time with those as well.

No, other casters can easily fucking deal with that. 8 hellwasp swarms are still just hellwasp swarms It does 3d6 damage plus poison if they close on you. So you seal them in with walls of X because you are a caster, and you throw an animated heat metaled construct and move on with your life. Or you summon monsters with AoE damage spells. Or you just lock it them away and leave. Or you give yourself a fucking DR 15 and walk through.

[erik]

I agree with you that having a full caster makes things easier and less expensive. We all know that. The question is there a encounter where you absolutely have to have a full caster?

Because if there is not, then a game without full casters doesn't change all that much. The MC can still use the same old challenges as before, just the PCs have to deal with them differently (by expending more resources, time, etc).

No, that is like saying just because your odds of not winning a bet are incredibly low, that doesn't change the outcome of that bet all that much. A party without casters cannot reasonably expect to handle all comers without changing the game somehow. Maybe by giving them unlimited equipment and full spellcasting ability as you seem to be offering.

I don't think aboleths get access to greater invisibility

My bad. I was using d20srd and the Combat line for Aboleth Mage blended nicely in when I was reading it. Greater Invisibility was the least potent thing mentioned though. Unlimited illusions are superior in every way.

I'm not sure where you think these people are flying? They don't have casters, are they spending 60,000 on wings of flying at level 10? That is going to drastically reduce their fucking stats in combat.

Because he is assuming that the non-casters despite not having full spellcasting, have the potential to have access to every spell available and can expect to have relevant spells already active, thus exceeding the potential of full-casters.

So we come back to this:

This isn't a very reasonable question.

[Ice9]

There are much cheaper ways to get flight. You can get it at will for 10-13K, or 3/day for less. And if you're an entire party of non-casters, you'd better believe this is going on your list.

People have this annoying tendency to forget/disregard the existence of magic items when comparing the viability of non-casting classes. Now most non-casters do suck, but that's not why and it just makes the argument look dishonest.

Also, most published modules are just not that tough. A strongly optimized party of anything can smash their way through the majority of them.

[Username17]

Pathfinder Wealth by Level numbers are more generous than 3e D&D numbers, but they are still wildly insufficient to get anywhere as a non-caster. WBL for a 10th level character is 62k. Spending 13k on being able to fly a little bit for short periods of time still leaves you woefully inadequate to the tasks at hand, and that's like 20% of your resources right there.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Ninja'd by Frank, who got at the most important bit in a lot less space. But I feel the "some games actually make you roll to see what random shit you get and also don't let you grind until you get what you want."

People have this annoying tendency to forget/disregard the existence of magic items when comparing the viability of non-casting classes.

Where the fuck are you getting these magic items?

Look, the only way to reliably have the magic items you want is to make them yourself. Protip: that involves being a caster or a high-level Warlock.

So the way your party of losers gets magic items is by pulling them out of the stomach of the troll that nearly killed them. So here, look what magic items you get from rolling on the table for a CR 10:
-Minor Arcane Scroll (Magic Mouth CL 3, Mirror Image CL 3)
-Minor Arcane Scroll (2x Endure Elements CL 1, 1x Cure Moderate Wounds (Bard) CL 3)
-Major Wondrous Item (Manual of Gainful Exercise +5)

Fantastic, one person gets a +5 Inherent Bonus to one of the ability scores they use, and that's pretty sweet. You know what it isn't, though? Flight.

Sure, that isn't "all the treasure we'll ever get from level 1 to 10", but it's an example of what you'll get. Those scrolls, if you're lucky, can get used if someone has Abuse Magic Device (and if they do it properly with scrolls, they are basically playing a full caster, except one who uses a lot of paper). If you're unlucky, you're selling them for pennies apiece, and then unless you can go to Thay-Mart*, you scrounge around and maybe they have a +1 or 2 weapon of the kind you use. Otherwise they probably have healing potions and "some other low level scrolls".

The only way you can let them solve problems with money is by actually letting them buy everything as though using an Efreeti mail order service (complete with catalogues) or a vending machine. I'm totally okay with that, but you can't take it as a given.

And seriously, if it only costs you 4K for flight, can I point out that 4K is actually a +2 Stat Booster or Armour/Shield Bonus that you now do not have? At level 10, just the right magic weapon is nearly 20K, and the ideal magic armour is either ~13K (+3 Mithral Breastplate), ~11K (+3 Full Plate) or ~20K (+3 Mithral Full Plate). Congratulations, you're now halfway through the money a 10th level character "starts with".

*This isn't as funny if K-Mart is only an Ausfailian company.

[Cyberzombie]

Where the fuck are you getting these magic items?

If you're talking pathfinder it's not too difficult to be a decent secondary caster/crafter, since most of the important stuff is keyed off caster level (which is the same if you're a Magus/summoner/whatever) and spell prereqs can be ignored via a +5 to the spellcraft DC.

Given magus is intelligence based, it's pretty easy for him to craft whatever items the party need.

If you're talking 3.5 then yeah, you'll get screwed getting magic items.

[Kaelik]

There are much cheaper ways to get flight. You can get it at will for 10-13K, or 3/day for less. And if you're an entire party of non-casters, you'd better believe this is going on your list.

Since those creatures fly at least 60ft with perfect maneuverability, your 40ft fly speed that can be dispelled for 20d6 fall damage is absolutely worthless.

It looks to me like the cheapest source of 60ft flight is the Broom of Flying and Racing, which also might break, and can also be dispelled, and isn't at will. So... man that sucks when you are trying to do anything to a Dragon with 200ft fly speed.

[RadiantPhoenix]

*This isn't as funny if K-Mart is only an Ausfailian company.

It's not just Australia.

Or at least it wasn't, a few years back. I dunno about now.

[Wiseman]

I haven't seen a K-Mart in years. There used to be one in my town, although it turned into a Sears.

[fectin]

I had heard that K-Mart somehow personally offended Sam Walton, so he deliberately built a Wal-Mart accross the road from every K-mart and undercut them. I don't know that it's true, but there sure was a sudden boom of Wal-Marts getting built right next to K-marts ~10 years ago.

(Obviously, that timeline doesn't add up in any easy way - Walton died in '92)

[Swok]

There is a Walmart less than half a mile from the nearest K-mart where I live....but that was likely just because it was a large amount of land in an area they wanted presence.

[Midnight_v]

Back to the topic though, overall It'd look pretty shitty.
1. A lot of monsters are on total: "Fuck you, melee" mode
2. A lot of monsters are actually Giant flying Grizzly bears with magic.
3. See #1

I imagine that the party would involve a lot of archery?
People with good to great hide scores, and darkstalker?

There's likely things you can do if the whole word allowed no magic above X level. So you never have to fight shit like aboleths, ettregaunts, and demons.
Ultimately, it would have to look like E-6, because either you have cut the top off the gameworld, or because that the point at which the inevitable TPK approaches 1.

I think Kaelik asks a pretty valid question also. . . if there are no full casters where are all these magic items supposed to be getting made at?

It creates a weird kind of inconsistency in the game, I mean I guess warlocks, and artificers are the standard? Still its just the same old shit as always, trying to make the game something its not. The full casters to some extent are needed.

[erik]

I had heard that K-Mart somehow personally offended Sam Walton, so he deliberately built a Wal-Mart accross the road from every K-mart and undercut them. I don't know that it's true, but there sure was a sudden boom of Wal-Marts getting built right next to K-marts ~10 years ago.

(Obviously, that timeline doesn't add up in any easy way - Walton died in '92)

Sounds like urban legend. I recall reading an article about walmart's intentional practice of not setting up confrontationally if they could help it mostly taking out small businesses rather than going head to head vs other big box stores.

[ckafrica]

I have considered putting full casters on a bard like progression and give them some extra spells a day just get rid of they super high powered stuff with having to ban hammer the class. I havent tried it yet and i assumed it would mean toning down the CR of encounters but the idea was let melee types feel like they had pants to wear for a bit longer

I'm really not sure wtf is wrong with all the complete fucking idiots that exist in the universe who think using the bard schedules for anything ever is a good idea.

Just make up your own fucking schedule. And you know what you will do? You will give them level 1 spells at level 1, because any level, even stupid level 1 where everyone sucks except barbarians, only being able to cast cantrips is basically saying "Go sit in the corner and wait until you are allowed to be a real character."

Wow I have to stop quick typing messages on a phone. That was missing some pretty crucial words.
What I meant by bard-like rather than bard was capping spell levels at L6. Starting with L1 spells is a no brainer and something I'd do with a bard if anyone I knew had ever said they had wanted to play one. I'd leave caster level at full and either allow all DCs to be based of caster level(/2) rather than spell level or leave DCs as is and hand a caster a DC boost item should it prove crucial. Make sure the actual number of spells per level is the same so they still have the same number of expendable actions per rest but just have to choose from a list with its head cut off and is acquired more slowly. If your talking about removing the full casters as is entirely yet lamenting the loss of them, this could be a medium setting.

NO. NO. BAD CKAFRICA. BACK AWAY FROM THE SPELL TABLE AND STOP NERFING EVOCATION.

I didn't say anything about evocation what the fuck are you talking about?