[nWoD] Demon: the Descent

[Fucks]

Exactly. And that's why I asked if you would consider D:tD to be nice/ decent if it would been made by an enterily different company (you know, Pelgrane Press, Paizo, WotC, whoever, but not OPP and not WW) and rule set (not cWoD, not nWoD...) - got it?

[Lago PARANOIA]

What exactly do you want out of the system, though?

I've heard a couple of other pitches from posters about Demon and it sounds like a reasonable enough concept to build a game around. However, there are a lot of ways to implement that as far as TTRPGs go. And not just in setting, either; I'd expect a GW version of Demon to feel a lot different than Paizo's even if the fluff was exactly the same.

[Username17]

Exactly. And that's why I asked if you would consider D:tD to be nice/ decent if it would been made by an enterily different company (you know, Pelgrane Press, Paizo, WotC, whoever, but not OPP and not WW) and rule set (not cWoD, not nWoD...) - got it?

I don't know what we're even talking about here. So the concept is that we're ruminating a hypothetically different game with different mechanics, different fluff, brought about by a different writing process used by a different writing staff laboring under a different editorial staff. What, exactly is left at this point?

Now, as I've mentioned Here, I think Western Demons are an almost uniquely shitty starting point for an RPG. While they have a lot of recognizable cache in Western society and instant cultural recognizability, they also create expectations that are corrosive to the table top experience.

Do I think an RPG where the concept is "You play Demons. There's a masquerade. The setting is nowish, but with secret magic." could be interesting? Hellz yeah, I do. I just think you're probably trying to ice skate up hill by using Christian/Muslim Satan's Demons as a starting point. And I think you could be waiting until the heat death of the universe if you're waiting for the Hamlet typing monkeys in the steaming Icelandic crater that was White Wolf to write it for you.

Demons in Christian mythology are basically pointless and pretty nearly designed to make people uncomfortable in a cooperative storytelling situation. If everyone pushes the squick factor their limit, someone is going to be made really uncomfortable.

-Username17

[Fucks]

Now, as I've mentioned Here, I think Western Demons are an almost uniquely shitty starting point for an RPG. While they have a lot of recognizable cache in Western society and instant cultural recognizability, they also create expectations that are corrosive to the table top experience.

Do I think an RPG where the concept is "You play Demons. There's a masquerade. The setting is nowish, but with secret magic." could be interesting? Hellz yeah, I do. I just think you're probably trying to ice skate up hill by using Christian/Muslim Satan's Demons as a starting point. And I think you could be waiting until the heat death of the universe if you're waiting for the Hamlet typing monkeys in the steaming Icelandic crater that was White Wolf to write it for you.

Demons in Christian mythology are basically pointless and pretty nearly designed to make people uncomfortable in a cooperative storytelling situation. If everyone pushes the squick factor their limit, someone is going to be made really uncomfortable.

-Username17

Now that is helpful - You rants about nWoDs shitty game mechanics and OPP/WW writing staff are not (and get repetitive).

[Username17]

Helpful for what? Are you planning on making a Demon-like game? Are you looking for one that has already been made?

If you come out and say: "We want to have a game where the protagonists are different flavors of demons, and they pretend to be mortal humans and run around having secret magical adventures. Like Harry Dresden or Harry Potter, but with demons." Then I'm certainly willing to hear the next thing you have to say. Demons are awesome. Urban fantasy is awesome. That could totally be like chocolate and peanut butter.

Unfortunately... I'm also going to have to check out the rest of your ideas very carefully, because there are a lot of ways that can go horribly wrong. In Western demonology, perhaps the two biggest themes of "demons" are:

• They have revolted against the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the universe.
• They are as evil as the author can figure out how to convey to the audience.

Neither of those are acceptable for the protagonists of a cooperative storytelling game. But if you're going to channel Milton at all, that's about all you get.

Now, for demons themselves, Western Demonology has had a good two thousand years to come up with awesome demons. And while there are certainly some duds, there is more than enough material to mine. Of course, I don't think that pulling out the Ars Goetica is going to get you a set of demons that are amazingly better than the ones that have already been adapted to Dungeons & Dragons. And you could certainly do worse than just use the western demons that have already been adapted to the much more player-friendly hells of Eastern mythologies. Japanese Asmodeus is adorable.

Far better to start with the idea that the Heavens are imperfect and the Celestial Bureaucracy is falling apart. That way, demons overthrowing things can be seen in a sympathetic, even heroic light. And that's basically Chinese. But of course, the Chinese have a lot of hells, so there's plenty of room for as many kinds of sympathetic and antagonistic demons as you want. You're going to want your Succubi to be called "Succubi" rather than "Moniu." But to be honest, can you even name any of the other types of demons in Western demonology? Drudes? Goblins? Those are fucking lame.

Meanwhile, if you go Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, and Taoist on this, you get all kinds of cool demons. Rakshasa. Asura. Vetalas. Yaoguai. Mogui. These things are awesome. And more importantly: they are things which can unironically be the heroes of stories. Sha Wujing will fuck you up. But it's not weird that he's a hero.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

What is the unifying metaphor of demons? That they're nihilistic and anomic radicals who are willing to fight hopeless odds to advance their pet political causes -- using any number of ridiculous purple and firey superpowers?

Western Vampires have an awesome unifying metaphor (or since the 1980s, they have two), which is why they're pretty much the sweetest monster ever. So do zombies, talkative ghosts, mad scientists, pod people-style invaders, X-men derived mutants, and urban fantasy wizards.

Your elevator pitch of demons or whatever race you want to create is by far the most important part. You should spend weeks or even months working on a punchy two-sentence description on why they're relevant.

[Lago PARANOIA]

They are as evil as the author can figure out how to convey to the audience.

Question: is there any value to having a faction in which everyone in it is irredeemably evil or destructive (like zombies or nasty devils or the Flood or whatever) whose sole purpose is to give players something to kill in large numbers without feeling bad and act as a driving impetus for factions to work together to defeat?

[The Yann Waters]

So quickdraw isn't actually quickdraw unless you get attacked. And then you get your choice of defense/attacking/doing something or drawing your weapon.

No, Quick Draw just gives you the opportunity to get your weapon out or set it aside without delay as a reflexive reaction to an attack, so that you don't need to fumble at it again once your turn comes around. That's a one-dot Merit: you shouldn't expect much mechanical oomph from it.

Now, I'm not sure what audience the "Supernatural gang warfare game #9" that is Demon: the Descent is supposed to capture. Except for hardcore WW brandslaves, which are not a numerous breed. For fuck's sake, "You've escaped an eldrich abomination you could never hope to comprehend, now go, try to pretend that your guerilla actions on Earth matter to it" is the exact premise of Changeling: The Dreaming.

Same goes with Geist, Promethean, and Mummy. Damn. There's a pattern.

Mummies are essentially still slaves to their old masters and trying to break free can be a campaign goal, but I'm not seeing a connection to Prometheans or Sin-Eaters since "escaping from eldritch abominations" isn't even part of their backstory. Changelings and demons do have that in common, but in both cases they can a) learn to understand the entity in question and b) eventually take direct action against it.

To quote that DtD draft (page 63): "When demons talk about turning Earth into Hell by banning the God-Machine and its angels from entry, or discovering a new layer of reality where they can be free, or creating a new world for themselves somewhere among the world's many shadows, they are not speaking hyperbole. These are completely reasonable goals."

[Username17]

No, Quick Draw just gives you the opportunity to get your weapon out or set it aside without delay as a reflexive reaction to an attack, so that you don't need to fumble at it again once your turn comes around. That's a one-dot Merit: you shouldn't expect much mechanical oomph from it.

Oh for fuck's sake.

Your character can draw a pistol and fire or pull a melee weapon and attack without penalty as a single action in a turn. If a weapon is hidden on your character's person (under a coat or in a purse), it can be drawn and used in the same turn without the normal loss of Defense.

It makes you not suffer the initiative penalty of holding your weapon because it doesn't take a separate action to draw the damn thing. Stop being a twat.

-Username17

[ErichZahn]

Frank is right about Shotgun Iajitsu. You can take a Reflexive action at any point, and so, RAW, you can draw instantly, dodge initiative penalties and holster after your turn is over, unless your Defense doesn't apply or there's something somewhere saying that you can only do

If there was another game wherein the characters are fallen angels of the monstrous, subhuman "God" that prosperity theologians serve in the hope that the energy of their prayers and faith enable IT to influence the world, would you play it?

Do you think that sharp criticisms of prosperity theology and the false, abiblical God it constructs in the minds of believers makes for a good antagonist when combined with modern reader's refrain of "Why the fuck did God need a palanquin!?"? Has growing up with Star Trek and a thousand other modern fables changed your image of that unearthly, ineffable thing that you cannot reason with from a bearded king and his army to a crystalline intellect that works through hundreds of proxies?

[The Yann Waters]

Your character can draw a pistol and fire or pull a melee weapon and attack without penalty as a single action in a turn. If a weapon is hidden on your character's person (under a coat or in a purse), it can be drawn and used in the same turn without the normal loss of Defense.

It makes you not suffer the initiative penalty of holding your weapon because it doesn't take a separate action to draw the damn thing.

That's the old version of Quick Draw, not the one used by the revised rules which also replaced the Merits from the WoD core. What you should be looking at is:

Quick Draw (•)

Prerequisites: Wits •••, a Specialty in the weapon or fighting style chosen

Effect: Choose a Specialty in Weaponry or Firearms when you purchase this Merit. Your character has trained enough in that weapon or style that pulling the weapon is her first reflex. Drawing or holstering that weapon is considered a reflexive action, and can be done any time her Defense applies.

[Username17]

Yann, you know that "when your defense applies" is a game term that means you are free to act and not surprised, right? It doesn't mean you are literally rolling applying your defense as a dice pool penalty to other people at the moment. Holy crap.

The God Machine version of Quickdraw is even better at avoiding the stupid initiative penalty because it applies to shotguns and not just swords and pistols. Shotgun iaijutsu is totally a thing. It's totally retarded. If your game encourages people to draw and holster their shotguns every shot, your game needs to rethink its fundamentals.

If there was another game wherein the characters are fallen angels of the monstrous, subhuman "God" that prosperity theologians serve in the hope that the energy of their prayers and faith enable IT to influence the world, would you play it?

Do you think that sharp criticisms of prosperity theology and the false, abiblical God it constructs in the minds of believers makes for a good antagonist when combined with modern reader's refrain of "Why the fuck did God need a palanquin!?"? Has growing up with Star Trek and a thousand other modern fables changed your image of that unearthly, ineffable thing that you cannot reason with from a bearded king and his army to a crystalline intellect that works through hundreds of proxies?

Well, that would be interesting. You'd be doing an Evangelion if you did it right. Fill in such and such a religion's end times, and the people keft have to fight it because most end time myths are actually incredibly dick moves to all the non-believers, which is most of the planet because there is no majority religion anywhere. Now, you're stepping on incredibly thin ice there, because basically you're singling out a specific religious group and mocking their beliefs.

Which is not to say that there aren't many beliefs that deserve to be mocked. Far from it! Many, indeed most beliefs deserve to be mocked. It's just... there's a very fine line between making fun of Judaism and making fun of Jews. Or making fun of Islam and making fun of Arabs. It's good and healthy to call out bad ideas, but calling out ethnicities of people as bad is Bad. Like, Hitler bad. And not in a hyperbolic "Everything bad is Hitler" kind of way, but in the way where you're literally writing RaHoWa.

-Username17

[The Yann Waters]

Yann, you know that "when your defense applies" is a game term that means you are free to act and not surprised, right? It doesn't mean you are literally rolling applying your defense as a dice pool penalty to other people at the moment.

"Defense applies" to specific actions, not general situations. That's the only way the term's ever used in the rules. Besides, reflexive actions are typically reactions and enhancements to other actions, not some freebies that you can spam endlessly at will.

[Username17]

Yann, you know that "when your defense applies" is a game term that means you are free to act and not surprised, right? It doesn't mean you are literally rolling applying your defense as a dice pool penalty to other people at the moment.

"Defense applies" to specific actions, not general situations. That's the only way the term's ever used in the rules. Besides, reflexive actions are typically reactions and enhancements to other actions, not some freebies that you can spam endlessly at will.

This is completely and utterly wrong on both counts.

This is why White Wolf games are terrible: because in order to defend the game from even the simplest of critiques, they resort immediately to bald face lies. White Wolf games cannot be defended on their actual merits, so fans simply make shit up.

For the record: "defense applies" in pretty much exactly the same circumstances that you get your dex bonus in D&D. Which is not terribly surprising, because it is essentially the same concept.

-Username17

[The Yann Waters]

For the record: "defense applies" in pretty much exactly the same circumstances that you get your dex bonus in D&D. Which is not terribly surprising, because it is essentially the same concept.

Unarmed Combat: Strength + Brawl; Defense applies
Melee Combat: Strength + Weaponry; Defense applies
Ranged Combat: Dexterity + Firearms
Thrown Weapons: Dexterity + Athletics; Defense applies

For example, if a PC is shot and stabbed by two different opponents simultaneously, Defense will apply to one attack but not the other. Oh, and for the reflexives:

Reflexive actions are best considered defensive or reactionary activities that don't intrude upon other behavior. They include resisting poison, seeing through a deception, defying social pressure and spending Willpower points. These activities do not preclude your character from taking his normal action in a turn; they are performed in addition to that action, and are resolved immediately after the instigating action or attack (when the poison is injected, when the threat is leveled or when your character decides to go for broke).

[ErichZahn]

This is why White Wolf games are terrible: because in order to defend the game from even the simplest of critiques, they resort immediately to bald face lies. White Wolf games cannot be defended on their actual merits, so fans simply make shit up.

For the record: "defense applies" in pretty much exactly the same circumstances that you get your dex bonus in D&D. Which is not terribly surprising, because it is essentially the same concept.

-Username17

At no point did I, a defender of White Wolf games, lie to you. I want you to consider what that means. Furthermore, your first statement is logically flawed and would be improved by the use of the word "must".

You should know bad rules don't sink a game unless they're truly terrible. Instead, you chose to posit that bad rules are the reason that people aren't backing the "Prestige Edition" of a book that they already effectively have.

You should know that Drivethrurpg wouldn't get involved in some massive fucking conspiracy to defraud "WW brandslaves", and that the preview pdf is six hundred pages long because it's formatted for editing before it's chucked into InDesign and turned into a real book. Also, gold paint, steel plates, and other similar things cost money and are hard for DTRPG to do on a regular basis. Part of their Kickstarter's money goes to fund proof of concept, dry runs, and leave room for mistakes.

I'm unqualified to criticize your claims about finances, but I suspect them to be false.

Now, back on topic.
Discounting add-ons, as of my last refresh:
1319 people are backing
1169 books will be made, divided among 1126 backers, who are also getting the finished PDF
139 backers are getting the finished D:tD PDF without a physical book.
50 are getting neither
Of those 50:
7 are getting the WoD Core
6 are getting the God Machine Chronicles book
2 are getting a Demon:the Fallen PDF
1 is getting Midnight Roads and Mysterious Places, which are pretty
34 are chipping in a dollar to see updates and get their names or handles in the Credits.

The book will have raised lettering and a metallic finish.
The price they charge for one blingbook is 50$
The book has one of those frilly bookmarks in the binding.
The Seattle sourcebook, two PDFs of plot hooks, and pregen characters will be sent to anyone who backed on a level that includes the PDF

90,000+ has been spent. pledged.


e:I suspect the number of backers to rise at the beginning of the month, btw.

[Roog]

Unarmed Combat: Strength + Brawl; Defense applies
Melee Combat: Strength + Weaponry; Defense applies
Ranged Combat: Dexterity + Firearms
Thrown Weapons: Dexterity + Athletics; Defense applies

For example, if a PC is shot and stabbed by two different opponents simultaneously, Defense will apply to one attack but not the other. Oh, and for the reflexives:

Reflexive actions are best considered defensive or reactionary activities that don't intrude upon other behavior. They include resisting poison, seeing through a deception, defying social pressure and spending Willpower points. These activities do not preclude your character from taking his normal action in a turn; they are performed in addition to that action, and are resolved immediately after the instigating action or attack (when the poison is injected, when the threat is leveled or when your character decides to go for broke).

In what way is that a functional rule?

[The Yann Waters]

In what way is that a functional rule?

Quick Draw or Defense in general? The most logical reading of the Merit would simply be that it makes the usually instant drawing or holstering action reflexive instead, and additionally allows performing the same out of turn whenever the character's Defense applies against an attack... but even that wouldn't permit drawing and holstering in a single turn.

Defense under the new rules is equal to the lower of Wits or Dexterity, plus Athletics (or possibly, with the appropriate Merit, another Skill). It may be applied against any attack that the character could reasonably evade (ruling out bullets), but drops by one for every attack avoided in that manner until the next turn. Spending a turn on an actual dodge doubles Defense, but instead of subtracting from attack pools, it's then rolled as a dice pool in itself, with each success cancelling out one of the attacker's.

[Koumei]

but drops by one for every attack avoided in that manner until the next turn.

versus



This fight is one-sided, but not in the way you might think.

[The Yann Waters]

This fight is one-sided, but not in the way you might think.

You get to choose whether you wish to apply Defense, so there's little point in wasting it on attacks that most likely couldn't cause serious injuries anyway. That part hasn't changed much since the original WoD core: being outnumbered was always the real killer. But the higher Defense in the current mechanics and having armor reduce actual damage instead of acting as a penalty to the attack pool improve the value of protection somewhat.

[ErichZahn]

Option 1:Versatile Transformation, 1 Aether, activate Armor Plating and Glory and Terror. All of the children go running off in terror and you're left fighting whatever grownups made their Willpower roll.

Option 2:Activate Cool Heads Prevail and book it.

Option 3:All of those toddlers are mooks. Activate Merciless Gunman and kill [Dex+Firearms+Equipment+1WP] toddlers. Don't even bother rolling the Cover check because you will fail it.

Option 4:Go Loud.

[Longes]

Well, that would be interesting. You'd be doing an Evangelion if you did it right. Fill in such and such a religion's end times, and the people keft have to fight it because most end time myths are actually incredibly dick moves to all the non-believers, which is most of the planet because there is no majority religion anywhere. Now, you're stepping on incredibly thin ice there, because basically you're singling out a specific religious group and mocking their beliefs.

-Username17

To be precise, you'd be doing Shin Megami Tensei.

And Frank, please, stop weabooing the thread. Buddhism demons, for example, are no more in power to do crap than christian are. No religion can be ported into an RPG as is, but that doesn't mean you can't loot them for bestiary and ideas.

[Mask_De_H]

I think your translation software is busted, Longes, because that last paragraph made no goddamned sense.

[Longes]

I think your translation software is busted, Longes, because that last paragraph made no goddamned sense.

Hm. I'll try to explain.

Frank is hiping up eastern demons, like they are the best thing in the world since the mouse wheel. I disagree with his assertion of eastern demons being inherently better than western demons, due to existence of various factors that remove their agency, much like western demons, who are bound to be vanquished by God. The example I give are buddhist demons - they are bound by karma to suffer, until they've sufffered enough to cleanse their karma and reborn as humans again.

In the last sentence I agree with Frank's statement about religions translating poorly into role playing games. However, I see no reason not to use religious texts as a source material for monsters and story ideas.

[John Magnum]

Of course "bound to suffer" is infinitely many orders of magnitude less severe than "bound to do whatever your omnipotent, omnibenevolent adversary decides you should do" when it comes to nullifying potential roleplaying hooks.