The Gaming Den

Nidhogg at [unixtime wrote:1153717545[/unixtime]]

I still don't get why some undead are suseptible to critical hits under your system. In undead in D&D don't have squishy spots- it doesn't matter if you hack off limbs or heads- they keep coming at you until you beat the crap out of them to the point where thier animating forces fail and they crumble in to dust.

So, you don't believe that one can kill a vampire by staking it then? I mean really, there are actual myths that talk about doing crazy crap like that to undead and you can't do that if you can't do critical hits to undead.

A vampire can be vulnerable to a staking and still be immune to critical hits. If you can drive a wooden stake in to a vampire with a mallet, he's already helpless anyways, so adding a clause that lets you coup de gras him regardless of his immunities (if you have the proper tools) seems the easier solution.

wrote:undead in D&D don't have squishy spots- it doesn't matter if you hack off limbs or heads- they keep coming at you

Que the Black Knight.

Nidhogg at [unixtime wrote:1153722108[/unixtime]]A vampire can be vulnerable to a staking and still be immune to critical hits. If you can drive a wooden stake in to a vampire with a mallet, he's already helpless anyways, so adding a clause that lets you coup de gras him regardless of his immunities (if you have the proper tools) seems the easier solution.

Actually, he can't. Critical hits are defined as effectively hitting a target in a vulnerable spot, and if a vampire cannot be critically hit then he doesn't have any vulnerable spots, thus his heart is meaningless.

…seriously, how many self-respecting DMs would have a trap disarming evil gorilla running around?

That's awesome! I am so making this the bad guy in future session.

You could make a type specifically for bugs, but why bother? If it looks like a bug than Vermin Lords can speak to them.

Because it would reduce fights with anyone who actually wanted to play a vermin lord. Your buddy brings his vermin lord to your Planescape game and there are a bunch of phase spiders running a toll booth to a portal to the plane you want to get to.

Can your vermin lord buddy talk to them? The rules don't say. He says yes, 'cause they're big bugs. You say no, they're outsiders. Fist fight ensues. You crack his skull with a chair. You get arrested and spend the rest of your life in jail.

…all because the fvckers who write D&D won't make the type system make sense.

Re: Giants and Monstrous Humanoids - I see no reason why (giant) and (monstrous) shouldn't be subtypes, or qualifiers or whatever.

That way you could have giant animals and giant insects and even stuff like the Titan would be able to be a giant and still be an outsider or whatever, (although I'd go for making the Titan a Humanoid (Giant) (Magical) or something, depending on what the system used allowed)

Really, we should be looking to the KPCOFGS system, and picking a level -- probably Class, maybe Order -- to represent a 'type'. Most of the Classes/Orders don't need to be represented because those creatures don't make for good D&D games, but the ones that do need to be represented probably deserve their own category.

Nidhogg at [unixtime wrote:1153717545[/unixtime]]
I still don't get why some undead are suseptible to critical hits under your system. In undead in D&D don't have squishy spots- it doesn't matter if you hack off limbs or heads- they keep coming at you until you beat the crap out of them to the point where thier animating forces fail and they crumble in to dust.

Corporeal undead certainly have vital spots. You can strike a skeleton in the neck and take off his head, easier than you can a human in fact. Personally I think undead should be immune to sneak attack (since that's specifically about striking vital organs) and that's it unless they're incorporeal. Incorps should be totally immune. In the case of the vampire, you could actually have sneak attack work too, but only if you're figthing with a stake.

Critical hit immunity should generally be reserved for stuff like non-jointed constructs (clay golem), oozes, swarms, incorporeals and probably elementals.

Re: undead and critical hit immunity, wouldn't just making their 'immunity to crits' into 'immunity to extra damage from crits (and sneak etc)' work?

I seem to recall seeing that wording in some of the more recent wizards products anyway.

That way you can still stake a vampire, or vorpal off heads, or stuff... (whatever happened to the 'sharpness' properly for chopping off limbs, anyway? 3E has ways to put limbs back on, in core, but not actual ways short of GM fiat to take them off)

The_Matthew at [unixtime wrote:1153755977[/unixtime]]Actually, he can't. Critical hits are defined as effectively hitting a target in a vulnerable spot, and if a vampire cannot be critically hit then he doesn't have any vulnerable spots, thus his heart is meaningless.

A vampire does have a 'weak spot', but it's so overly specific that it would never come in to play in combat. Seriously, a weakness to conical wooden spikes does not warrent making them vulnerable to crits, especialy seeing as a stake would *never* puncture a rib cage if used as a conventional weapon. You would need to hit it with a hammer, or jump on it or something.

EDIT: Yes, this is an exageration. I'm sure there are situations where you could break through a sternum with a stake using only your bare hands, but I doubt it would come to in to play often enough to make an exception to the rule. Its far safer to assume that a character is more comperable to Van Helsing than to Buffy.

Hey_I_Can_Chan at [unixtime wrote:1153756237[/unixtime]]Because it would reduce fights with anyone who actually wanted to play a vermin lord. Your buddy brings his vermin lord to your Planescape game and there are a bunch of phase spiders running a toll booth to a portal to the plane you want to get to.

Can your vermin lord buddy talk to them? The rules don't say. He says yes, 'cause they're big bugs. You say no, they're outsiders. Fist fight ensues. You crack his skull with a chair. You get arrested and spend the rest of your life in jail.

…all because the fvckers who write D&D won't make the type system make sense.

I just rule that if it looks like a bug, than a Vermin Lord can talk to it, regardless of creature type. Hell, let them talk to giant lobsters and umber hulks too.

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1153763274[/unixtime]]Corporeal undead certainly have vital spots. You can strike a skeleton in the neck and take off his head, easier than you can a human in fact. Personally I think undead should be immune to sneak attack (since that's specifically about striking vital organs) and that's it unless they're incorporeal. Incorps should be totally immune. In the case of the vampire, you could actually have sneak attack work too, but only if you're figthing with a stake.

Critical hit immunity should generally be reserved for stuff like non-jointed constructs (clay golem), oozes, swarms, incorporeals and probably elementals.

In my campaign, at least, it doesn't matter if you chop right through a skeleton's neck, it doesn't 'damage' it any more than any other attack. I figure that the negative energy that animates the undead is what holds a skeleton together, and that 'hurting' them just puts strain on that animating force. 'Killing' an undead is simply putting so much strain on the animating force that it recoils back to the Negative Energy Plane, turning the undead in to a pile of dust.

Fwib at [unixtime wrote:1153769688[/unixtime]]Re: undead and critical hit immunity, wouldn't just making their 'immunity to crits' into 'immunity to extra damage from crits (and sneak etc)' work?

Yeah, though I've kind of wanted to have normal crits work. Everything except sneak attack, wounding, etc.

Though it might be kind of interesting to give undead a sort of crit multiplier reduction of 1, thus weapons like scimitars are crap against them and axes and scythes do a lot better, which I think seems more consistent with how we see undead.

To apply that sort of weakness to undead - the vampire specifically, you are conceeding that you want "traditional" traits to be applied to mythological creatures disregarding any sort of game balance or consistency.

I think it's a little hokey to throw a weakness on a vampire personally, into a game that seems like it's trying to be as generic as possible to make it accessable.

Save_versus_Stupid at [unixtime wrote:1153792698[/unixtime]]To apply that sort of weakness to undead - the vampire specifically, you are conceeding that you want "traditional" traits to be applied to mythological creatures disregarding any sort of game balance or consistency.

I think it's a little hokey to throw a weakness on a vampire personally, into a game that seems like it's trying to be as generic as possible to make it accessable.

D+D Vampires hardly seem generic when they can't cross running water. Stakes immobilizing vampires are far more common in literature than aversion to running water or mirrors or even garlic. We want them to be stereotypical vampires. (Beheading a vampire is also supposed to kill it, which requires critical hits)

And as to balance... so rebalance them? Make them CR+1 instead of CR+2? I mean, monsters are balanced against PCs by assigning an appropriate CR, not because some suite of abilities is inherently balanced.

Uhh, only bone I've ever borken was my sternum, and the guy involved used no weapon, even though he was holding a hockey stick in his hands...

Though it might be kind of interesting to give undead a sort of crit multiplier reduction of 1, thus weapons like scimitars are crap against them and axes and scythes do a lot better, which I think seems more consistent with how we see undead.

Hey, that's kinda a snazzy idea. Kinda like the +1 weapon conundrum.

-Crissa

But to puncure your sternum with a concial wooden spike would have taken far more effort. Hell, if I was to take a stake and try to stab my leg with it, I doubt it would even get past my jeans. These are tarp-pitching tools designed to be driven in to soft earth that we're talking about here, not weapons. Even if you were to weaponize a stake, it would probably be designed for stabbing in to the squishy spots rather than a person's chest cavity.

A lance would work just fine, and getting it through someone's chest is trival on a horse if you hit them in the right place.

Umm, we're talking about D&D. The PCs aren't a bunch of weedy geeks so claiming that we can't do it is kinda irrelevent.

And what about crossbow bolts and arrows? You're still driving a piece of wood through the heart, even if it has a metal tip to make things easier.

-Desdan

I was never a fan of the 'wood kills vampires' thing. It's too common sense of a weakness, and has the mythology removed from it. If a player wants to stake a vampire, I make him use a stake that has been used in a cemetary to mark a dig site for a grave.

Nidhogg at [unixtime wrote:1153879062[/unixtime]]But to puncure your sternum with a concial wooden spike would have taken far more effort. Hell, if I was to take a stake and try to stab my leg with it, I doubt it would even get past my jeans. These are tarp-pitching tools designed to be driven in to soft earth that we're talking about here, not weapons. Even if you were to weaponize a stake, it would probably be designed for stabbing in to the squishy spots rather than a person's chest cavity.

Why don't you read how much weight a 26 strength can lift, or even a 20 strength. You aren't exactly talking about normal people here.

Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1153884157[/unixtime]]And what about crossbow bolts and arrows? You're still driving a piece of wood through the heart, even if it has a metal tip to make things easier.

-Desdan

Simple - have the stakes be special. Perhaps they're made of silver, have runes/marks or enchantments, have been dipped in holy water or maybe just been blessed by a powerful enough cleric or priest. This would allow players to use special arrows/bolts/spears or whatevers as well... which makes a lot mroe sense than a vampire's bane being my chair's leg.

A random splinter won't do anything, but a stake with the symbols of (cue good, neutral, or evil god here) will send her to the abyss for good....

What's wrong with wood? It's not exactly a common weapon, yet every lynch mob is fully equipped.

-Crissa

Yeah, I'm with Crissa. The idea that you can only kill Vampires with carefully prepared and powerfully enchanted wooden stakes is... well, retarded. It gives vampires an unnessissary powerup and it really has no basis in legend. I've heard that you have to use specific TYPES of wood, and hey, I'll even go with Nidhogg's Cemetery Wood theory because of the whole sympathetic magic angle, but fer crap's sake, if you're blessing it or carving eldrich runes on it, then I don't see why you can't use a sword and get the same undead-slaying properties added to something MEANT to be a weapon.

I mean, the reason for the stake, the actual reason they used it, WAS TO NAIL THE FUCKER TO THE GROUND so it couldn't get up. You guys are SERIOUSLY overthinking this.

-Desdan

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1153893707[/unixtime]]What's wrong with wood? It's not exactly a common weapon, yet every lynch mob is fully equipped.

I just don't think such an iconic monster should have such a boring weakness. Rakshasas no longer have an 'instant fuck' weakness, and nobody wants to play a game where you kill hags by splashing them with water, so why should vampires who already have a plethora of weaknesses be suseptible to arrows and spears?

Well to be fair, the entire thing about the staking a vampire was so it would stop moving while you followed the four easy steps of vampire killing:
1) cut off the head
2) fill the mouth with holy wafers
3) burn the head and body separatly
4) scatter the ashes

The fact is, that's a very specific and wierd weakness so staking became the thing to do.