The Shadowrun Situation

Antumbra · Post by **Antumbra** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:54 am

Otakusensei wrote:Ok, it was kinda rude. In the interest of fairness, I present my own rape face. It was taken fresh this evening in a darkened public restroom*

That's got a bit of a HSoTD Kohta vibe to it, good work.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:08 am

Uhm, guys, Godwin. Yeah, i know h's hanging around this topic for a while, but i think you're overdoing it. I'm almost sure there are no nazi sympathies there. Just borderline ignorance. Not that it's better, but at least that can be fixed, hopefully. C'mon, how much can an average gamer from the US know about concentration camps and nazis beside that they were 'kinda bad' and dated to the WWII? Remember, that the common name for those camps, as the US press uses is 'polish concentration camps'. Great, isn't it?
And i do believe that is indeed the problem here.
You don't like them, i get it. But let's keep things civil, as critique is always better than fanatic rambling - you know who was fond of the latter, right?
Your right as a SR4 fan is to point out blunders, and bad ideas. It's also to ignore them, and that part of 'canon' SR along with it, if you want. Use it.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:40 am

Kot wrote: C'mon, how much can an average gamer from the US know about concentration camps and nazis beside that they were 'kinda bad' and dated to the WWII?

The author is about my age, which means that he had to watch, at least once, and more likely like 3-4 times, Schindler's List while going through high school, because Speilberg gave a copy of the movie to every high school in the country. Which doesn't give him a historical basis of the Nazis, but gave an entire generation of kids, 50 years after the end of WW2, the emotional basis to hate the Nazis all over again.

American perceptions of the Nazis aren't that they were "kinda bad", they basically are interpreted as evil incarnate. Yeah, I know that's just as ill-informed in the other direction, but seriously, the US still calls WW2 "the last moral war". We're stuck in a time warp when it comes to WW2 because it's the last war we completely kicked ass at. Korea is either forgotten or mumbled over, Vietnam we lost and hate to talk about, Iraq 1 was like a mac truck ripping through wet tissue and didn't get our grognard nut off, and Afghanistan/Iraq Part 2 is nothing like any of the war movies we've seen over the last 70 years or so.

Plus, on top of that, two entire generations grew up watching Disney cartoons that were literally propaganda from the war (I remember the one with Donald working in a shell factory for the enemy and waking up and making out with the US flag. They showed this on Sunday morning when I was a tot). All of Hollywood focused on war propaganda too, making it even easier to hate the enemy.

Even Godwin's Law exists because of how vitriolic the Nazis are considered. In flamewars online, people would sling accusations and comparisons to the Nazis because they are understood to not just be bad guys, but the ultimate, dark, vile evil, beyond the devil and satan.

Which makes what was written sickening, because it was either someone hoping to cash in on that knee-jerk reaction and controversy, the person is so backwards socially that they don't get how coveting the scalpel that tortured and mutilated Jews for years might rub people the wrong way, or the person actually digs that train of thought.

Frankly, any of the three options is rather disgusting.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:03 am

Okay, so it's worse than i anticipated. But still doesn't make my argument invalid, i think. At least the 'constructive critique' part.

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:13 am

I just fell in love with the smartstaff. It's a handheld weapon that can change it's shape into anything (hence, it is as much sex toy as weapon), and it "needs wireless" because it is totally out there to think you could apply skinlink to a handheld device.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:40 am

Kot wrote:Okay, so it's worse than i anticipated. But still doesn't make my argument invalid, i think. At least the 'constructive critique' part.

The Arbeit Macht Frei section is just really bad. It might be passed off as a phenomenal lapse in judgement on its own, but it really does come 3 pages after there is an unsigned in-character rant about how to get Czechs to kill Gypsies. There are two examples of characters being on "Team Nazi" back to back. And zero instances of characters fighting against the Nazis. And the second example, the characters are supposed to be the PCs. And you know what? That's pretty much indistinguishable from that section taking a pro-Nazi position. And considering that it devotes a grand total of four pages to talking about Europe, the sheer density of apparently Pro-Nazi material in the sections where it would be at all relevant is shockingly, revoltingly high.

As for constructive critique, I don't really think that is possible. The book is in all ways bad. Really, really bad. While there are some essays that are competently written (especially in the Mercenaries and The War chapters), even those lack basic informative details about the plotline that are basically required. What are you going to say? "In the future, write about the topic, keep your authorial voice consistent, make sure your pronouns agree, keep your facts straight, edit for typographical errors, and make sure that you use English and Foreign Language terms correctly"? What the fuck man, this isn't seventh grade, we aren't grading an English Paper, this is a fucking professionally published book that costs actual money and was made by a company with a staff!

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:25 am

but appearantly not with a smartstaff . .

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:03 pm

They wouldn't know how it works. They're not even sure about magnets.

cthulhu · Post by **cthulhu** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:17 pm

While that line will always be funny, I also do not understand quantum electrodynamics.

Much more elevant: Maps! How do they work?!?!~

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:45 pm

Magnetically.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:26 pm

Meh...
No comment here.

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:46 pm

Sorry. Not making fun of you.

Have a smartstaff?

raben-aas · Post by **raben-aas** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:06 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:History lesson: Marienbad is the German name. The place stopped being called that when Beneš had all the Germans marched out at gun point in 1945 and moved Slavs back into the reconquered Sudetenland. As long as this place is under Czech control, it will never be called Marienbad. It's called Mariánské Lázně. Deal with it.

Sorry, but it IS called Marienbad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari%C3%A1 ... A1zn%C4%9B

Mariánské Lázně is close to impossible to pronounce, so it's called Marirnbad in Germany (I'm saying this because s.o. made the point to blame the Germany sourcebook for introducing that name: The is a LOT to blame the Germany sourcebook for, but not introducing that name. If at all, the fault was to not translate it when the sourcebook was translated to English!).

The English-speaking world calls München Munich and says Cologne to Köln. Likewise, the Germans say Warschau to Warszawa, Stettin to Szczecin, and, well, Marienbad to Mariánské Lázně.

Why Mariánské Lázně should be called Marienbad OUTSIDE of Germany (re: in an English sourcebook) I don't know. Maybe it's easier to pronounce in English, too?

In the (English) wikipedia article, there is a section that reads "...famous spa towns, such as Carlsbad (Karlovy Vary) or Franzensbad (Františkovy Lázně)." -- the formerly German names seem to be used as English default, there, and the Czech names are only given in parentheses.

However, I don't have the slightest idea if that is just the way this wikipedia article deals with Czech names, or if this is a "general" rule.

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:11 pm

Hey, but i call Marienburg Marienburg.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:11 pm

No, it's totally called Mariánské Lázně. It is famous under the name "Marienbad" because it used to be called that and various kings vacationed there. There's also a French surrealist movie called "Last Year At Marienbad" but that movie does not actually take place in Mariánské Lázně.

But seriously, this is like stubbornly calling Beijing "Peking" or calling Zimbabwe "Rhodesia". Actually it's a very dickish thing for Germans to do, considering that the town being renamed was one of the results of the Nazis losing World War II. To a very real extent, it's a lot like Nipponese people putting the rays on the sun when drawing their flag.

Now there's a whole different issue where that town is a tiny forest village built around a spa and a gold course, and it will never be the capital of anything. Karlovy Vary is nearby and has a lot more room to grow.

Kot wrote:Hey, but i call Marienburg Marienburg.

Jmenuje se Malbork.

-Username17

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:15 pm

Frank, we still call it Marienburg. Well, that's the city's True Name. The one under which it was created(and spent most of it's days). I don't know, it just feels right. Yeah, you say 'Malbork' when you talk about it with people, but that's just so they won't get confused... Besides, Marienburg and Malbork seem like they're two different cities. The former being a place of history, and architectural wonder, and the latter a boring, static small town with a corrupt and degenerate city hall.

raben-aas · Post by **raben-aas** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:25 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Actually it's a very dickish thing for Germans to do, considering that the town being renamed was one of the results of the Nazis losing World War II.

If forced, we'll always prefer dickish before can't pronounce that

May be a side effect for living in a country that doesn't even sound remotely the same way in foreign tongues (Deutschland -- Germany -- Allemagne versus Frankreich -- France -- France versus England -- England -- England

)

Fixed quote tags --Z

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:35 pm

Fix your tags

Youth · Post by **Youth** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:44 pm

Man, I don't wanna be pouring more sauce on this Nazi debate, but technically, every single AA or AAA corporation is actually an autonomous National Socialist Autocracy/Oligarchy.

Shadowrun is balls deep in shooting Nazis. Not, like, arm-band NAZIs, but still. Running around shooting up Nazi assholes is one of the core elements of cyberpunk.

BT dubbs. I know LDS cats like to stack the deck with other Mormons, but is anyone besides Bills confirmed as a "special underwear" man? For example, I always thought Hardy was more "well-intentioned incompetent" than "borg invader," but, thinking on it, the only two reasons to keep him on are 1) He is a LDS loyalist toady and/or 2) He is a weapon being used to destroy Shadowrun.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:58 pm

Youth wrote:Man, I don't wanna be pouring more sauce on this Nazi debate, but technically, every single AA or AAA corporation is actually an autonomous National Socialist Autocracy/Oligarchy.

Shadowrun is balls deep in shooting Nazis. Not, like, arm-band NAZIs, but still. Running around shooting up Nazi assholes is one of the core elements of cyberpunk.

Wait what? How do you figure this one?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:20 pm

"Fascism may more properly be called 'Corporatism'"
-Benito Mussolini

However, while a megacorp is a fascist entity in a lot of ways, having an authoritarian structure, a fanatically aggressive mandate, and indeed exactly the sort of collectivization that Mussolini suggested for the nation. However, it's not exactly the same thing as Fascism, because it doesn't lay any claims at all to archaic personal values (or any personal values at all), and has no inherent allegiance to any nation or creed. It certainly isn't specifically Nazi, as that comes with a whole bunch of extra baggage that a corporation doesn't necessarily endorse.

But yes, Aztechnology is Fascist, because it has a national interest (Aztec) and a conservative moral agenda. Again though, it's not specifically Nazi because they have a bunch of specific political, social, and moral stances that are incompatible with the specific Fascist agenda that the Nazis had.

Youth wrote:BT dubbs. I know LDS cats like to stack the deck with other Mormons, but is anyone besides Bills confirmed as a "special underwear" man? For example, I always thought Hardy was more "well-intentioned incompetent" than "borg invader," but, thinking on it, the only two reasons to keep him on are 1) He is a LDS loyalist toady and/or 2) He is a weapon being used to destroy Shadowrun.

Hardy and Coleman are confirmed to be wearing the special underwear. They appear on temple registries and a number of other Mormon paperwork that indicate that they keep up with the church. Jason Hardy also posts answers to Mormon theological questions on a different forum. Those answers are weird.

I have no idea about the religious affiliation (if any) of other people on staff or with the weird quasi-ownership promises of future shares of a corporation that doesn't have stock options to sell people.

-Username17

hermit · Post by **hermit** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:20 pm

Frank wrote:But seriously, this is like stubbornly calling Beijing "Peking" or calling Zimbabwe "Rhodesia".

Or refusing to bow to the BJP nazis and saying Bombay instead of Mumbai, yes.

Seriously Frank, I get that's a sensitive issue in Czechia, but you'll just have to live with the fact that Czech is not a very common language and hard to pronounce for those not speaking it. I'm not going to skin an American for kalling München Munich either. What's the deal? It's not like we're laying claims on the place or anything.

Besides, SR CoM is half Germany, so about half the population there's not Czech. Different setup, reason enough for a name the presumably German-speaking folks can pronounce. Check the map, the border is pushed back far into Bavarian Forst mountains.

Youth wrote:every single AA or AAA corporation is actually an autonomous National Socialist Autocracy/Oligarchy.

You obviously don't have an idea what the Nazi ideology really was all about.

Youth wrote:Shadowrun is balls deep in shooting Nazis. Not, like, arm-band NAZIs, but still. Running around shooting up Nazi assholes is one of the core elements of cyberpunk.

I'd like to see a source on this.

Edit: What the hell happened to the layout here?

Youth · Post by **Youth** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:57 pm

hermit wrote:Czech is not a very common language and hard to pronounce for those not speaking it.

Maybe they didn't want to repeat the mistake of the Tirs, (because absolutely fucking no one speaks that pidgeon-Gaelic, Sperethiel,) but it's not like they've shied away from accurate-if-bothersome pronunciations in the past.

hermit wrote:You obviously don't have an idea what the Nazi ideology really was all about.

You obviously have no idea what technically means?

The totalitarian national socialism of Hitler's Nazi party is a massive entity in the collective mind, but it is not the definition of national socialism as regards politics.

As to corporations not being Nationalist entities, their version of "brand loyalty" isn't far from nationalism if you consider that, as extraterritorial entites, each corp is conceptually a nation.

Wait, why the fuck am I talking about this? This whole Nazi topic is dumb.

Oh, and raben messed up the layout with his botched tags...

Kot · Post by **Kot** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:44 pm

Youth wrote:I know LDS cats like to stack the deck with other Mormons, but is anyone besides Bills confirmed as a "special underwear" man?

Hey, man, what do you have against cats? What did they/we* ever do to you?

And maybe stop arguing about nazis here, guys. Make a separate thread and move it there, because it's taking away this threads credibility.

* Kot means Cat in Polish FYI.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:07 pm

* Kot means Cat in Polish FYI.

i was about to ask about that, because of the meaning of kot in german(y) . .
Also:
Would Sir Raben . . ja, ich rede mit dir du altes Aas ^^ bitte die Quote-Tags ordentlich schliessen, damit das Layout wieder stimmt? ^^