Blades in the Dark

[Longes]

Leress:

This blog post just reminded me that the Skinner can force love (homo) attraction upon people both on character creation (during initial Hx setup) and during play.

http://killscreendaily.com/articles/i-f ... end-world/

And that's a good thing?

[silva]

Not good or bad. Just complementing Leress answer about potential sexual conotations in the game.

[Orion]

Silva is responsible the gangbang thing. There's no mention of sex in the young sentry stealth example, just murder. Apparently there is some kind of sexual creepiness involving a character called "The Kid," but "the Kid" is not in the core book.

Honestly, although the sex moves exist, they're not used in any gameplay examples or even really discussed in any of the MC advice sections.

[Username17]

Honestly, although the sex moves exist, they're not used in any gameplay examples or even really discussed in any of the MC advice sections.

What the fuck dude? The sex moves exist and they get described at length and their ramifications discussed.

And here’s the driver’s sex move:
If you and another character have sex, roll+cool. On a 10+, it’s
cool, no big deal. On a 7–9, give them +1 to their Hx with you on
their sheet, but give yourself -1 to your Hx with them on yours.
On a miss, you gotta go: take -1 ongoing, until you prove that it’s
not like they own you or nothing.
MC, you’re the judge of whether she’s proved it. Remember that
your agenda is to make Apocalypse World seem real and to make
the characters’ lives not boring, not to make the players jump
through stupid hoops.
This move applies if the driver and an NPC have sex, but a 7–9
just counts as a 10+.

The Sex Moves are stupid, horrible, and offensive. And they are a really big part of that stupid fucking game! They just are. If you are a Gunlugger, you have 4 moves. And at least one of them is probably (sigh) "Insano Like Drano," which in addition to having a retarded name is also a passive numeric bonus. So your character really only has like 3 things they "do." And one of those 3 things is a sex move. It's actually probably their best power, since it's a bonus to pretty much anything.

Yeah, I understand that you want sex moves to be a small part of that game, because they are stupid and prurient and offensive and shitty. But they are simply factually not a small part of the game. They are a huge part of the game. They are a huge part of the game and they are terrible. Which is a huge part of the reason why the game is terrible.

-Username17

[Orion]

The MC section goes through every move one by one and gives each a paragraph of interpretation. It is, as you point out, a 300 page book. It has 11 paragraph devoted to the interpretation of 11 sex moves. When I say that it's not discussed, I mean that although the moves get the procedurally-generated discussion required by format, they really aren't mention in any of the holistic discussion of running the game. The list of "principles" has stuff like "barf forth apocalyptica," "look through crosshairs," and "ask provocative questions and build on the answers." "Make sure people are banging" isn't one of them.

We all know that you personally become fixated on sexual content that offends you, but I assure you, it's really not that big a deal.

[Whipstitch]

Orion, the amount of page space devoted is a poor way to gauge in-game impact. For example, Leadership is but a single feat in 3.x but it's still campaign altering if you allow it. Likewise a large part of my issue with Apocalypse World is that "Act Under Fire" is practically the primary mechanic given that the fire can be "literal or metaphorical." Things don't become less important simply by being concise. It is simply factual that if you play AW your groups' informal social contract needs to be able to account for player characters banging.

[Orion]

Okay, but they're also essentially irrelevant to actual play, both in my own group and in reports I've read online. Frank will certainly say that not using them is an Oberoni, but the fact remains that although they are inexplicably central parts of the character sheet they are neither major topics in the rulebook nor important parts of play.

[Mask_De_H]

But they are there and they are a way to advance Hx and shit (depending on the move), which is an important mechanic.

You can't stick your head in the sand about this, Orion. It's there, it's varyingly useful mechanically and it's one of the few personal moves a playbook gets to start. It even gets special framing in the playbooks. You can say "I don't use the sex moves because fuck them", but you can't say they don't matter because you don't like them.

[silva]

The MC section goes through every move one by one and gives each a paragraph of interpretation. It is, as you point out, a 300 page book. It has 11 paragraph devoted to the interpretation of 11 sex moves. When I say that it's not discussed, I mean that although the moves get the procedurally-generated discussion required by format, they really aren't mention in any of the holistic discussion of running the game. The list of "principles" has stuff like "barf forth apocalyptica," "look through crosshairs," and "ask provocative questions and build on the answers." "Make sure people are banging" isn't one of them.

We all know that you personally become fixated on sexual content that offends you, but I assure you, it's really not that big a deal.

Yeah, pretty much this. If sex was central to the game, the game principles and directives would make it crystal clear.

Also, when sex came up during our games (and it did came up, as its advantageous for the player most of times) it was in a "lights out" way. In other words: you simply fast foward to the next morning and thats it. The game dont incentivates you know, narrating out how you do sex, or something like that. Just to make this clear.

[Atmo]

I wouldn't replace them with anything, personally. Sex moves are a huge part of the color of Apocalypse World.

Everything's about disconnection and decay, right? Your holding is your holding, and it's fucking dangerous to get to another place, and maybe those people will welcome you— but more likely than not, it's trouble. And everything that's left from the Golden Age is battered and broken and twisted or else it's just rubble. Nothing's the same.

The only ways you can really experience connection in Apocalypse World are Sex and Opening your Brain. And they're both super dangerous, right. But sex is the only thing besides bullets and gasoline that has made it through the apocalypse mostly in tact.
source: http://apocalypse-world.com/forums/inde ... 790#msg790

The very first time I played Apocalypse World was in the "Hatchet City" scenario. My character was the Brainer, and a creepy weirdo to the max. In my custody was a young woman who was not only the NPC that I was in love with but also some kind of spy. She'd stabbed the Hardholder, and claimed not to remember doing so. She couldn't tell me anything about what happened.

So I realized that if I use my Brainer special move on her, we might be able to get some information and figure what was going on. She was already tied down to the table (I'd bargained with the Hardholder to let me keep her as a prisoner instead of having her killed outright), so, looking at the my sheet, there was only one obvious thing to do...

And that pretty much my first scene, too. Quite a disturbing beginning.
source: http://www.story-games.com/forums/discu ... -sex-moves

[Whipstitch]

If sex was central to the game, the game principles and directives would make it crystal clear.

Actual splash art from the chapter of the same name.


Now, in fairness, the above chapter isn't actually about getting your dick wet. However, it is rather representative of how the the game is presented. The little material that exists is intentionally rather cheeky and transgressive, with the overall mood reminding me of angsty alt comics. Personally, I'm not the sort to get up in arms over such things, but the fact of the matter is that the game does indeed go places most other games fear to tread. With many settings and groups it can be tacitly be assumed that pvp and sexual advances just aren't going to happen, and AW goes out of its way to blow that notion up. You still don't have to do those things, but that AW provides incentives and tools for doing so is still a noteworthy distinction and not at all irrelevant in my book.

[tussock]

Oberoni's fallacy is where people claim rules are not bad because they can be fixed.

There's attempts here to be a slightly new thing, suggesting that rules are not bad because they are so bad you don't even use them, or if you do use them it's in a unique way unlike all the other rules, I would like to note:

[*] Not using bad rules is a fix for bad rules.
[*] Using bad rules in unique ways is a fix for bad rules.

So deciding not to describe what the fuck happens when you use sex moves, for instance, in a game where the whole thing is the GM describing what happens when you use various moves, that is really obviously an example of Oberoni's fallacy.

they are inexplicably central parts of the character sheet

It's entirely explicable. The obvious explanation is they're one of your moves and the GM describes what happens as a result of your partial success, against which you make more moves. Which will obviously result in bears, because it's one of those threads.

[silva]

Tussock, nobody is saying the GM shouldn't describe what happens, only that he should keep a level of detail compatible with the groups preference (not different from what he already does for all other actions).

So, ie: "Ok, you bang her/him for the remainder of the night" is as valid as "Ok, you begin by kissing her neck slowly, until you feel all her body trembling. Then she is takes your hand and begins to suck you fingers. You feel your cock is hard as a rock. Whatcha gonna do ?".

The difference lies on what the group wants out of it, the same way most groups are okay with the GM narrating "you pick the lock" instead of "you put the first pin on the keyhole and begins to turn. The mechanism starts to work but then it stops. Do you force it, knowing your pin can break ? Or do you try turning to other side ?".

Can you see how players can simply say "WTF ? Can't you just say I picked the lock and move on with the game ?". See ?

By the way, no AW group I know, in real life or over the internet, describes the sexual acts at all. Curiously, the only time in my life I've seen someone describe a sexual act in detail was a GM on a Vampire the Masquerade game I was playing.

[silva]

Oh, and about the centralness of the sex moves for the game, they certainly don't make part of the game reward cycle, so they could be entirely ignored and the game would run perfectly fine. On the other hand the sex moves are among the most powerful moves on your sheet, and certainly the ones who speaks more of your character type.

Take that as you will.

[Atmo]

Marmot Special
If you and another character have sex,
you both take -1forward for shame, unless
they’re also a marmot or it’s true love.
If you and another character have sex,
roll+current fat reserves. On a hit, you’re
pregs. On a 10+, with a litter of 4–6. On a
7–9, with a litter of 1–3.
If they also have fat reserves, they might get
pregs too, on the same terms.
Marmot gestation is 4–5 weeks.

source: http://infinite-vertigo.net/medias/AWLE.pdf

I just searched for more info about sex moves but every line I read makes the thing even more ridiculous and silly.

"Hey, it looks like we can have sex in this game!"
"Our characters, not us."
"Let's do a scene, a quick one!"
"There is no rules for that, neither explana- what? If we fail in the roll we fuck ourselves? It's like 3.5 all over again..."

[silva]

Atmo, Im still waiting your response for my previous post.

Atmo, I didn't mean to say chess is a role playing game. What I meant to say is that any game - from chess to netrunner to Xcom to Apocalypse World - has specific rules whose authors created with specific agendas and goals in mind. Ignoring those - be in chess or in apocalypse world - is an error, as you wont be playing the game as envisioned by the author. And at that point its debatable if you're playing the same game anymore.

In the specific case of Apocalypse World, the author explains that clearly in the book: " this game has a specific way to be played, and its like this... Deviate from it and you're not playing the game as intended, and the resulting experience may be dissonant to what I had in mind when created it".

So, in this sense, AW is not your traditional role playing game that works like a toolbox which tools you use how to see fit. Its more akin to indie games like Dogs in the Vineyard, Mountain Witch, Danger Patrol, Sorcerer, etc.

If that's not a clear and honest enough answer, I don't know what is. I have difficulty in engaging in the kind of sarcastic and insulting tone that's used by some users here so, if you was expecting that, I'm sorry to disappoint.

[souran]

As a person who has never played a *World game, when I went to look into the game and pulled up the "playbooks" the Sex Moves are positioned on the page such that they are given more prominance that just about anything else.

Its right in the middle, big and mandatory. It would not suprise me that people play without it. However, that is clearly like how people play White Wolf games and ignore humanity or the morality system. It was cearly a central part of the developers way of playing but you can play without it.

Also, I looked at DungeonWorld and its playbooks don't have anything like that. So its not a *World thing, it seems like its strictly an ApoclypseWorld thing.

[silva]

Souran, I think Monsterhearts also have sex moves (though they work differently).

But yeah, I agree sex moves are a big part of the game, both stylistically and mechanicaly. I just dont think its intended to be explored ina cheap/pervert way like in a hentai or something (as Tussock said above), I think its meant to be used as a generator of potentially harmful entanglements between players and NPCs. If you read the book carefully you will notice 2 things: 1) how the expression "it comes strings attached" happens often, indicating that most things in this world - from objects to affection - has a costly price. 2) You will also notice how the author instructs to create triangles PC-NPC-PC (or NPC-PC-NPC) to generate conflict and drama, suggesting these relationships are a big part of the game. Thus, I see sex in the game as an extension of those principles. The mechanical effects of the sex moves are pretty powerful and tend to immensely help - or fuck - one or both parts involved, giving it the character of something thats very precious and very dangerous at the same time.

TL;DR: sex in the game is meant to have an impact and to generate conflict. If possible, both.