The Gaming Den

DrPraetor wrote:But what are the challenges by level going to look like?

That's an interesting question, but not one you should attempt to answer before you have your actual list of monsters. If you declare that Level 7 is the level of large battlefield energy damage, you are essentially attempting to make the monsters to the expected abilities of the players. And that is a methodology that we already know is almost certain to fail.

The methodology is:

• List your challenges.
• Determine what characters need to bring to the table and have access to at each level from those challenges.
• Write character classes that do those things at those levels.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

DrPraetor wrote:But what are the challenges by level going to look like?

That's an interesting question, but not one you should attempt to answer before you have your actual list of monsters. If you declare that Level 7 is the level of large battlefield energy damage, you are essentially attempting to make the monsters to the expected abilities of the players. And that is a methodology that we already know is almost certain to fail.

The methodology is:

• List your challenges.
• Determine what characters need to bring to the table and have access to at each level from those challenges.
• Write character classes that do those things at those levels.

-Username17

Eh.... really?

I agree that it comes out nonsensical if you legislate that there must be energy-field demons in level 8, so you make up some stupid monster that leaves walls of lightning behind it; but, on the other hand, what level is a beholdergazer?

It's got some kind of negation ray and it's terrifyingly nasty but it could be anywhere from level 5 to level 12 and no-one would be in a position to complain.

That's the thing about it. Abilities can cover a range of levels. That was my point about the abilities earlier. You have to decide what kinds of things constitute a new tier of power. What's been described over and over again is whether or not players can get past/recover from from fuck off abilities and be able to adventure in very exotic locations.

DrPraetor wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

DrPraetor wrote:But what are the challenges by level going to look like?

That's an interesting question, but not one you should attempt to answer before you have your actual list of monsters. If you declare that Level 7 is the level of large battlefield energy damage, you are essentially attempting to make the monsters to the expected abilities of the players. And that is a methodology that we already know is almost certain to fail.

The methodology is:

• List your challenges.
• Determine what characters need to bring to the table and have access to at each level from those challenges.
• Write character classes that do those things at those levels.

-Username17

Eh.... really?

I agree that it comes out nonsensical if you legislate that there must be energy-field demons in level 8, so you make up some stupid monster that leaves walls of lightning behind it; but, on the other hand, what level is a beholdergazer?

It's got some kind of negation ray and it's terrifyingly nasty but it could be anywhere from level 5 to level 12 and no-one would be in a position to complain.

What the ray negates and what is considered nasty in comparison to other challenges gives you a specific place to put it. It's the job of the designer to figure out that place.

Ideally, any monster is going to work for a range of levels. For some monsters it'll be a solo at the low-end for the party and it'll be a horde of mooks at the high end.

Having a low-level party fight an ogre is okay and having a mid-level party fight a gang of ogres works. If you don't face an opponent you struggled against later, you're never going to really see how far you've come. Trouncing opponents that used to be hard is the way you prove you're not on a challenge-treadmill.

Just like climbing a mountain shouldn't become harder because you're higher level, you want to hit some of the same challenges at low- and high-level to prove how far you've come.

Design a monster generator, write down a list of monsters ordered by intended difficulty, flesh them out with said generator, and then make adjustments to specific monsters and/or the order of the list.

There was discussion between Frank and K about a monster generator some time ago, and the only thing I remember was that while they didn't agree with each other I agreed with both of them: you need at least a hundred monsters in your monsterous manual when you hit the shelves and you should design a monster generator.

zugschef wrote:Design a monster generator, write down a list of monsters ordered by intended difficulty, flesh them out with said generator, and then make adjustments to specific monsters and/or the order of the list.

This is in fact the wrong methodology. You want to design a bunch of monsters and then create a monster generator that linefits the monsters you made.

You can make any classes you want. You can make any ability lists, stat progressions, or mandatory weaknesses you care to imagine. But unless and until those classes actually output the monsters you want to be using as your challenges that's just empty posturing.

Until your challenges have been tested against the player characters and vice versa you don't have a balance point. Your numbers are arbitrary. Your choices of abilities are arbitrary. Something has to come first, and everything else has to be mathematically regressed to fit with it.

Which is why it's so important that you pick a starting point that's good. And the best starting point is "about two hundred monsters, of which you throw out a few outliers after you think about it some and do some comparisons." Once you have that, you can go ahead and make any classes you want that get to the abilities and numbers implied by that monster list. And that class list can and should include both monster classes and player character classes.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: Which is why it's so important that you pick a starting point that's good. And the best starting point is "about two hundred monsters, of which you throw out a few outliers after you think about it some and do some comparisons." Once you have that, you can go ahead and make any classes you want that get to the abilities and numbers implied by that monster list. And that class list can and should include both monster classes and player character classes.

-Username17

Has there been any non-D&D table RPG that out of the gate provided "about two hundred monsters" ready to go?

But yeah, from a DM's point of view it's pretty important to have a big list of enemies to throw at the party with no need of any building time. Players can afford to fine tune their PCs and minions, but the DM has to deal with "let's not go to the vampire castle right now, first let's go check out that forest" and the DM needs to have a bunch of forest monsters of appropriate level ready to roll because the carefully built castle vampire battles suddenly can't be used.

FrankTrollman wrote:

zugschef wrote:Design a monster generator, write down a list of monsters ordered by intended difficulty, flesh them out with said generator, and then make adjustments to specific monsters and/or the order of the list.

This is in fact the wrong methodology. You want to design a bunch of monsters and then create a monster generator that linefits the monsters you made.

-Username17

True. First stat up some monsters of various difficulties and then design the generator. Once you have that you can provide any desired amount of monsters.

maglag wrote:Has there been any non-D&D table RPG that out of the gate provided "about two hundred monsters" ready to go?

AD&D is, as far as I know, the only game to actually bring out its Monster Manual first, which it did in 1977. Other games have made monster books, obviously, but none of them have actually had the balls to release the monster book first. Rolemaster: Creatures & Monsters is over 200 pages, but it is an expansion book.

Most non-D&D games suggest significantly smaller projected levels of power accumulation than D&D does. Characters in Shadowrun are only really expected to be played at about four different levels of power as D&D would count such things. So that game does not need nearly as many monsters.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

maglag wrote:Has there been any non-D&D table RPG that out of the gate provided "about two hundred monsters" ready to go?

AD&D is, as far as I know, the only game to actually bring out its Monster Manual first, which it did in 1977. Other games have made monster books, obviously, but none of them have actually had the balls to release the monster book first. Rolemaster: Creatures & Monsters is over 200 pages, but it is an expansion book.

Most non-D&D games suggest significantly smaller projected levels of power accumulation than D&D does. Characters in Shadowrun are only really expected to be played at about four different levels of power as D&D would count such things. So that game does not need nearly as many monsters.

-Username17

But isn't Shadowrun's premise "fantasy+cyberpunk"? Because that sounds to me like you would need twice as many monsters to cover both aspects. I'm pretty sure there's supposed to be trolls and dragons and fey and elemental spirits at least on top of robots and cyborgs.

Exalted also springs to mind as not having a single monster manual despite two editions and their premise.

And now I think about magic the gathering that did have hundreds of monsters from the start and always gaining more, but then you're playing as the master of said monsters.

Hmmm, and MTG is still going strong while Exalted and Shadowrun are shambling rotting corpses. I guess there is a correlation after all!

maglag wrote:But isn't Shadowrun's premise "fantasy+cyberpunk"? Because that sounds to me like you would need twice as many monsters to cover both aspects.

The monsters are there to fill the challenge space, not the genre space. So Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay needs a smaller monster manual because the characters range from low level shit covered peasants to high end trained soldiers. You don't really need a lot of variation in the "bigger than a gryphon" department, because a single gryphon will fucking wreck the entire party even if everyone is maxxed out in advanced careers.

Exalted also springs to mind as not having a single monster manual despite two editions and their premise.

Exalted is unplayable and the lack of description of, let alone support for, any of their offered power levels is a huge reason why.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:

maglag wrote:But isn't Shadowrun's premise "fantasy+cyberpunk"? Because that sounds to me like you would need twice as many monsters to cover both aspects.

The monsters are there to fill the challenge space, not the genre space. So Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay needs a smaller monster manual because the characters range from low level shit covered peasants to high end trained soldiers. You don't really need a lot of variation in the "bigger than a gryphon" department, because a single gryphon will fucking wreck the entire party even if everyone is maxxed out in advanced careers.

I guess a better example would be the Black Crusade line where the characters range from "shit-covered cultist" to "power-armored daemon prince", yet I think there's not even a hundred pre-built monsters if you combine all the splats together.

The new 40K rpg in the works also promises ranging from shit-covered guardsmen to sphech merines.

FrankTrollman wrote: Exalted is unplayable and the lack of description of, let alone support for, any of their offered power levels is a huge reason why.

-Username17

I must say It's a great relief to hear that since once I've had to endure a couple years of some local Exalted fanboys barking about how awesome their system was and I trying to pick up the books and failing to understand how the fuck you were you supposed to run a campaign with that.

maglag wrote: I must say It's a great relief to hear that since once I've had to endure a couple years of some local Exalted fanboys barking about how awesome their system was and I trying to pick up the books and failing to understand how the fuck you were you supposed to run a campaign with that.

Railroaded plotlines. Extensive use of mind-caulk. Deus ex machina game refereeing. It's a literal shit show as game rules, as (apparently?) even dice result adjudication doesn't (exist to?) even tell you how dice rolls should be calculated for success/failure.

So a sample encounter for the first six levels of some environments. At level 7 I'm looking for more special environments, which would mean that there'd be different lists.

Caverns of Flesh and Stone

Level 1
Grimlock, Grimlock, Dretch, Giant Scorpion, Shocker Lizard

Level 2:
Troglodyte, Troglodyte, Mephit, Caryatid Column, Giant Spider

Level 3:
Earth Elemental, Minotaur, Cockatrice, Displacer Beast, Gargoyle

Level 4:
Umber Hulk, Umber Hulk, Invisible Stalker, Phase Spider, Basilisk

Level 5:
Large Earth Elemental, Medusa, Roper, Spider Fiend, Black Pudding

Level 6:
Clay Golem, Mind Flayer, Mind Flayer, Toad Fiend, Gorgon

Blood Bayou

Level 1:
Assassin Vine, Pixie, Bogle, Harpy, Harpy

Level 2:
Dryad, Spriggan, Giant Crab, Satyr, Peryton

Level 3:
Nymph, Boar Fiend, Hippogryph, Owlbear, Topiary

Level 4:
Ettin, Siren, Gryphon, Unicorn, Shambling Mound

Level 5:
Rusalka, Great Eagle, Manticore, Wood Golem, Large Water Elemental

Level 6:
Tree Folk, Wyvern, Night Hag, Hungry Fog, Dire Bear

Black Sands

Level 1:
Skeleton, Skeleton, Giant Ant, Legion Fiend, Hyena

Level 2:
Bone Fiend, Howler, Ghoul, Ghoul, Fire Fiend

Level 3:
Wight, Hellhound, Ghast, Ghast, Fire Elemental

Level 4:
Mummy, Mummy, Giant Crocodile, Fire Lion, Scorpion Fiend

Level 5:
Marrash, Burning Dead, Burning Dead, Land Shark, Large Fire Elemental

Level 6:
Osyluth, Dustwight, Ammit, Sand Vortex, Behir

Lonely Moors

Level 1:
Zombie, Zombie, Wisp, Wolf, Wolf

Level 2:
Vampire Spawn, Vampire Spawn, Imp, Worg, Yeth Hound

Level 3:
Wight, Glass Golem, Vampiric Mist, Stirge Swarm, Blight

Level 4:
Vampire, Nightmare, Fenhound, Wraith, Flesh Golem

Level 5:
Doppleganger, Swordwraith, Troll, Shadow Fiend, Dullahan

Level 6:
Specter, Wyvern, Succubus, Nosferatu, Hungry Fog

-Username17

What methodology are you using to create this list exactly? What metrics are you using to determine what a level 3 challenge is vs a level 5 one?

MGuy wrote:What methodology are you using to create this list exactly? What metrics are you using to determine what a level 3 challenge is vs a level 5 one?

You're putting the cart before the horse in even asking that - the whole idea is that you assign iconic monsters to levels basically by consulting a dartboard, and form a metric for what a level X challenge is based on the results of that dartboard.

(Well, I assume there's more thought put into it than "consult a dartboard", but the point is assign monsters to levels first, create the metric for what challenges are at what level second.)

~~~

I do have one query though - in a D&D context what differentiates a Nosferatu from a Vampire? Since presumably it isn't "can cast both Invisibility and Disguise Self at will and looks obviously supernatural when not disguised".

FrankTrollman wrote: Level 1
Grimlock, Grimlock, Dretch, Giant Scorpion, Shocker Lizard
Level 1:
Assassin Vine, Pixie, Bogle, Harpy, Harpy
Level 1:
Skeleton, Skeleton, Giant Ant, Legion Fiend, Hyena
Level 1:
Zombie, Zombie, Wisp, Wolf, Wolf

So a 1st level party needs some crowd control, it needs some bows, and it needs enough damage output to take out a shocker lizard and a giant scorpion before their respective specials kill people. I'm assuming that a 1st level energy-damage type can take out a Wisp, or that a wisp isn't threatening enough that a 25% of doing damage will be a problem.

FrankTrollman wrote: Level 2:
Troglodyte, Troglodyte, Mephit, Caryatid Column, Giant Spider
Level 2:
Dryad, Spriggan, Giant Crab, Satyr, Peryton
Level 2:
Bone Fiend, Howler, Ghoul, Ghoul, Fire Fiend
Level 2:
Vampire Spawn, Vampire Spawn, Imp, Worg, Yeth Hound

So a second level party needs to be able to cure paralysis; or, you need enough stacking on the 1st level crowd control to keep the ghouls well-and-truly suppressed. I assume that Dryads, Mephits, Howlers and Imps have some crowd control of their own, so a 2nd level party is expected to be just generally stout enough to deal with that?

FrankTrollman wrote: Level 3:
Earth Elemental, Minotaur, Cockatrice, Displacer Beast, Gargoyle
Level 3:
Nymph, Boar Fiend, Hippogryph, Owlbear, Topiary
Level 3:
Wight, Hellhound, Ghast, Ghast, Fire Elemental
Level 3:
Wight, Glass Golem, Vampiric Mist, Stirge Swarm, Blight

At third level I think you need area of effect attacks, to deal with swarms, displacer beasts and mists.
You need ranged attacks that are fearsome to deal with Gargoyles, Cockatrices and Hippogryphs; and, also, you need body guard powers to prevent those ravager types from just eating the cloth-wearers.
Finally, you need some energy defenses so that the fire elemental and the wight don't just shred you with fire or negative energy, as appropriate.

FrankTrollman wrote: Level 4:
Umber Hulk, Umber Hulk, Invisible Stalker, Phase Spider, Basilisk
Level 4:
Ettin, Siren, Gryphon, Unicorn, Shambling Mound
Level 4:
Mummy, Mummy, Giant Crocodile, Fire Lion, Scorpion Fiend
Level 4:
Vampire, Nightmare, Fenhound, Wraith, Flesh Golem

You need some means of fighting invisible foes, if you didn't already. You need to be stout enough to lose a turn or two to the Umber Hulk confusion and not just die.
You need various high-damage-output specials or the Flesh Golem and the Mummies just aren't going down.
I'm not sure what new stuff you need for a Basilisk.

FrankTrollman wrote: Level 5:
Large Earth Elemental, Medusa, Roper, Spider Fiend, Black Pudding
Level 5:
Rusalka, Great Eagle, Manticore, Wood Golem, Large Water Elemental
Level 5:
Marrash, Burning Dead, Burning Dead, Land Shark, Large Fire Elemental
Level 5:
Doppleganger, Swordwraith, Troll, Shadow Fiend, Dullahan

I'm assuming that large elementals are resistant to lower-tier crowd control stuff. I don't know what Doppleganger or Rusalka are going to do but I assume you need characters who can unshackle mind at this point.

FrankTrollman wrote: Level 6:
Clay Golem, Mind Flayer, Mind Flayer, Toad Fiend, Gorgon
Level 6:
Tree Folk, Wyvern, Night Hag, Hungry Fog, Dire Bear
Level 6:
Osyluth, Dustwight, Ammit, Sand Vortex, Behir
Level 6:
Specter, Wyvern, Succubus, Nosferatu, Hungry Fog

Between the succubus and the two mind flayers, I'm either going to want some kind of mind shield or I'm going to want unshackle mind on cheap repeat.

So assuming we have a standard party:
- A thri-kreen magic martial artist.
- A human paladin with the subclass where you deal energy damage by stabbing things, and the subclass where you have undead sidekicks.
- A fey druid with the enhanced-lightning-magic subclass.
- A gnome with the fighter/illusionist hybrid class and the bluff melee subclass.

What do they need to get at each of the levels above?

What are youb talking about cart before the horse? He's indicated that 7th level is a benchmark for a thing so there would reasonably certain expectations he has set in his mind for the difference between a 3rd level group challenge and a 5th level group challenge. To say that a good way to produce a list of challenges is to randomly assign things to a leveled list with no other considerations is a good way of creating leveled challenge lists sounds crazy without even considering the problems that could create with inconsistency and redundancy.

Instead of just guessing at what he thinks constitutes a good challenge for X level group it's better to just ask.

The express design principle was "assign monsters to levels, create precise challenge-by-level algorithm based on that".

So, the level at which a party has to be able to cure petrification is the lowest level at which a monster that petrifies you appears.

It's not necessary or even useful to have precise expectations in mind when you're laying the groundwork for what those precise expectations should be formed around.

Omegonthesane wrote:The express design principle was "assign monsters to levels, create precise challenge-by-level algorithm based on that".

So, the level at which a party has to be able to cure petrification is the lowest level at which a monster that petrifies you appears.

It's not necessary or even useful to have precise expectations in mind when you're laying the groundwork for what those precise expectations should be formed around.

Skipping over the fact that I already said that you are essentially deciding what abilities show up at a certain level at least twice if not more in this very thread, you would still be determining levels you expect those abilities to show up by putting a creature with ready access to that ability at a certain level and not at another one before that. This is not a mystery and considering that Frank had indicated that he had benchmarks in mind it is not a great leap to assume he has thought about when he wants certain things to come online as challenges. Instead of trying to decode it by guessing it is easier to ask what his methodology was in determining these things. Without knowing I'd be guessing and can't even critique his choices because I've notv the foggiest what he had in mind when making these lists.

DrP wrote:I'm not sure what new stuff you need for a Basilisk.

The existence of any monster that inflicts a status condition implies the need for the player characters to be able to undo that status condition. They don't necessarily need to be able to undo it well, but they need to be able to undo it at all. So maybe they have to wait until after the battle to de-petrify you. Maybe the process costs money. Whatever. The fact that there's a Basilisk on a level 4 encounter list means that the players need access to a means to turn stone back to flesh.

"Mike wants to keep playing his character." is an unanswerable argument. The minimum capabilities that implies are in fact the party's minimum capabilities.

-Username17

Well, I guess your metric can simply be "what folklore, literature and film consider more dangerous is higher level".

FrankTrollman wrote:

DrP wrote:I'm not sure what new stuff you need for a Basilisk.

The existence of any monster that inflicts a status condition implies the need for the player characters to be able to undo that status condition. They don't necessarily need to be able to undo it well, but they need to be able to undo it at all. So maybe they have to wait until after the battle to de-petrify you. Maybe the process costs money. Whatever. The fact that there's a Basilisk on a level 4 encounter list means that the players need access to a means to turn stone back to flesh.

"Mike wants to keep playing his character." is an unanswerable argument. The minimum capabilities that implies are in fact the party's minimum capabilities.

-Username17

Cockatrice appears at level 3; remove petrification already needs to be there at level 3.

Does Basilisk add any other "you must be this tall" hurdles by the very nature of the concept? Or does this mean cockatrices belong in level 4 along with it?

Good point, but the cockatrice has always been a shitty monster: weak as fuck but you're a bad die roll away from dying, anyway. You don't feel heroic in defeating one but you feel bad being defeated. I'd just either change the effect from petrification to paralyzation, make it non-permanent or add a special inexpensive commonly available method to get rid of a cockatrice's petrification effect.

What this basically means is that you can have some effects earlier if you introduce them as special weaksauce versions ( like non-permanent) of the real thing. (Which is probably even good for the game because it creates a certain learn-effect for the players.)