Rehabbing WoD, but keeping it's spirit
Moderator: Moderators
I guess our game was more the former. Anyone who joined the pack basically gave up whatever human life they had, the notable exception being the ST's girlfriend, except that her "human" life was really more just having a kinfolk husband and kids and maintaining a wolf perserve, so, you know, not really a human life, just a life outside of the pack.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Just some line of thought writing on both the realities of being part of "angry pre-industrial animalistic esoterrorist" team, and how to encourage people to actually deal with human society--and what happens when you try to. It occurs to me that my group actually dealt with human society practically all the time. I mean, we lived in the cairns, but if we wanted guns, or cars, or any other modern convenience, we had to head into town. So really Rage should have bit us in the ass more than it actually did.
Life in the Den
"Do you have any idea what it's like to spend 70% of your time around a bunch of self-righteous assholes who always think they know better, and are all prepared to open an artery over the slightest provocation--and then go into the normal world?"
Werewolves have a fundamental problem in interactions with non-werewolves--Rage. While channeling one's Rage in combat is often the key to survival and victory, that inner fire is poorly contained, and usually threatens to burst from it's hearth at the drop of a hat. As such, werewolves form their own communities--called Dens--typically in the wilderness, away from humans. In this more peaceful setting, werewolves have an easier time containing their Rage, but are also less likely to suffer dire consequences when they inevitably do lose their tempers. Tearing an elk to pieces gets people afraid that there's a large predator in the area that can be a danger to humans. Tearing a patrol car and it's occupants to pieces often leads to a larger rampage with a much higher body count, and the attention of enemies that can slay a werewolf.
However, a large, industrialized city in the woods, complete with a McWolfie's would draw a lot of attention, which would completely ruin the entire point of Dens. As such, werewolves have to make do with a much lower level of modern convenience--often none--than they were likely accustomed to prior to the first change.
Dens are mostly residential. Most of the buildings and dwellings in them will be homes to individuals or couples or packs. It's not uncommon for a Den to have a few more specialized spaces, often longhouse-style communal halls, or even small general stores. Some may even have drinking halls or taverns separate from the communal hall and leaving it for more formal purposes. However, these are very small and limited, as even if a company could be persuaded to deliver out into the middle of nowhere, it would raise questions, and require proof of the werewolves' cover story and generally just create liabilities. As such, Dens are typically much more akin to hippie communes, and provide for themselves as much as possible. The small populations--seldom even approaching 1000 members--help make this more feasible, but at the end of the day, it's going to be primarily produce and meat, and a few craft goods such as leather and woodwork.
Some Dens are supplied through cover businesses--hunting resorts and hotels and the like--which are legitimate businesses that use creative bookkeeping to cover for the diverting of more complex goods. Others go full outlaw and raid nearby towns and passing shipments. Needless to say, this must be carefully controlled so as to be written off as transient crime, rather than the marauder raiding it really is.
There are a rare few werewolves who maintain mortal lives in corporate entities and manage to create larger supply lines to affiliated Dens. These highly covert arrangements are exceptionally rare to be seen attempted, and even more rare to see work. The number actively functioning in the entire world at any given time can be counted on one hand. Generally the best ones are Dens created under the cover of remote work that uses a large number of workers, such as mining, lumber and archaeology operations, but even these must make concessions to the need to keep humans away.
Generally speaking, werewolves who live in a Den have ready access to food and shelter. Unless they go crazy, a Den can manage these basic necessities. They can also generally manage clothing, whether through the use of skins of large game animals, or sending the lowest Rage member into town on a semi-regular basis. They will typically maintain a PO Box or a halfway house closer to town so that the same runner can also pickup mail for members and things which cannot be acquired in stores can be ordered.
It is important to remember that Dens are, almost without exception, established and maintained with a technology and resource availability closer to the late 1700s than the 21st century. Indoor plumbing is rare, though doable, given that ancient civilizations did manage it, and electricity even more so. This is not to say that there is no electricity at any Den, but part of living of the grid is living off the power grid. All electricity available to a Den is generated by the Den, either with technologies such as solar, wind or hydro-power, or seriously having a few otherwise useless pups sit on exercise bikes with magnets and wires. Most Dens have at least one member who is technically inclined and able to rig such things up given time and books. More generally, individuals in a Den who want electricity have generators, and prioritize their power use. Weapons can be bought in a Den, but they are almost always made by a member of the Den, and often "paid for" through at least some amount of barter and favours. Getting someone else to do your hunting while you make their gun can be more useful than a couple hundred dollars, especially if you don't get out to town much. Often Den members pay other members for goods and services on a "Half Cash/Half Trade" system, but particularly old members who may risk a frenzy any time they leave the Den may lean more heavily on trade than cash.
Entertainment in the Den
A lot of life in the Den is spent hunting, farming, crafting or otherwise providing for the Den. But not all of it is. Being overworked can risk frenzy, and it's important to give members time to relax, as well as opportunities to sublimate their Rage. Most Dens try to maintain libraries, contributed to by the members, that are really more of just communal bookshelves where members leave books they've grown tired of and are free to pick up a new copy. It's generally considered bad form to tear up a book in a frenzy, and a werewolf who does so is expected to replace it, but it's understood that that happens from time to time. A part of this library may also be music, usually on an eclectic array of mediums, from 8-tracks to cassettes to cds and even memory cards, as well as devices to listen to it on. Batteries can almost become a currency of their own in the Dens for this reason.
The Ring
Every Den has at least one large circle, typically made of cobblestones or painstakingly place pebbles, usually in the middle of the Den, and surrounded by torches. These have a very specific purpose--being a place for tearing the ever loving shit out of another werewolf, possibly because they've pissed you off.
One of the best ways for werewolves to avoid frenzy is to regularly engage in combat. Given their self-assumed purpose as the guardians of the earth against evil spirits, this suits the werewolves just fine as it also helps them maintain their skills. The Ring is a place for entertainment, airing of grievances, and proving oneself. They will always be lit, and the larger the Den, the more likely they are to be in use at any given moment.
Rings also serve as a casual social area for werewolves, and are surrounded by enough free space for the Den to sit around them to spectate, some may have actual risers or bleachers or benches, but there is always space for everyone who lives in the Den.
Any time there is a duel going on in the Ring, there will be at least a few werewolves watching, and often betting on the outcome. And then when the match is done, it's not uncommon for a couple of the spectators to rush in and reoccupy it to settle an argument related to the bet.
Social Interaction, and the Lack Thereof
Because every werewolf has to deal with Rage, they tend to be a bit more sensitive in the area of social interaction, and have a few customs regarding such. It is generally assumed that any werewolf relaxing in a public area of the Den, such as the Hall, or around the Ring, is open to talking and interacting with others. Those who are not have their own homes to relax in. Werewolves are very territorial, both because they're spiritually wolves, and because of their Rage, and a werewolf who is outside their home is not assumed to be taking visitors, as a human might be. Dwellings in the Den are typically encircled by small fences, and socially these fences are treated as if they were 9 foot tall solid walls for the purposes of interacting with the resident. Because Rage can be so hair trigger, werewolves are more likely to wave to, or sit just outside the fence of one they wish to visit, and let the werewolf at home respond or not as they will (in cases of emergencies, well, needs must). These fences also typically have at least one flag, or some manner of mechanical rig (such as a bucket and pulleys, or a track attached to a bucket inside) that allows visitors to let the inhabitant know someone's there. Some even have several flags or other signals in various colours so that a visitor's needs or intentions can be communicated--maybe a werewolf is fine with receiving friends, but not in the mood to accept commissions, or they need to focus on work, and friends need to wait. Werewolves also make use of whiteboards and other signs to head off visitors.
While this may seem elabourate, or rude, or ridiculous, remember, it could be the difference between a bruised ego and a torn off face.
Life in the Den
"Do you have any idea what it's like to spend 70% of your time around a bunch of self-righteous assholes who always think they know better, and are all prepared to open an artery over the slightest provocation--and then go into the normal world?"
Werewolves have a fundamental problem in interactions with non-werewolves--Rage. While channeling one's Rage in combat is often the key to survival and victory, that inner fire is poorly contained, and usually threatens to burst from it's hearth at the drop of a hat. As such, werewolves form their own communities--called Dens--typically in the wilderness, away from humans. In this more peaceful setting, werewolves have an easier time containing their Rage, but are also less likely to suffer dire consequences when they inevitably do lose their tempers. Tearing an elk to pieces gets people afraid that there's a large predator in the area that can be a danger to humans. Tearing a patrol car and it's occupants to pieces often leads to a larger rampage with a much higher body count, and the attention of enemies that can slay a werewolf.
However, a large, industrialized city in the woods, complete with a McWolfie's would draw a lot of attention, which would completely ruin the entire point of Dens. As such, werewolves have to make do with a much lower level of modern convenience--often none--than they were likely accustomed to prior to the first change.
Dens are mostly residential. Most of the buildings and dwellings in them will be homes to individuals or couples or packs. It's not uncommon for a Den to have a few more specialized spaces, often longhouse-style communal halls, or even small general stores. Some may even have drinking halls or taverns separate from the communal hall and leaving it for more formal purposes. However, these are very small and limited, as even if a company could be persuaded to deliver out into the middle of nowhere, it would raise questions, and require proof of the werewolves' cover story and generally just create liabilities. As such, Dens are typically much more akin to hippie communes, and provide for themselves as much as possible. The small populations--seldom even approaching 1000 members--help make this more feasible, but at the end of the day, it's going to be primarily produce and meat, and a few craft goods such as leather and woodwork.
Some Dens are supplied through cover businesses--hunting resorts and hotels and the like--which are legitimate businesses that use creative bookkeeping to cover for the diverting of more complex goods. Others go full outlaw and raid nearby towns and passing shipments. Needless to say, this must be carefully controlled so as to be written off as transient crime, rather than the marauder raiding it really is.
There are a rare few werewolves who maintain mortal lives in corporate entities and manage to create larger supply lines to affiliated Dens. These highly covert arrangements are exceptionally rare to be seen attempted, and even more rare to see work. The number actively functioning in the entire world at any given time can be counted on one hand. Generally the best ones are Dens created under the cover of remote work that uses a large number of workers, such as mining, lumber and archaeology operations, but even these must make concessions to the need to keep humans away.
Generally speaking, werewolves who live in a Den have ready access to food and shelter. Unless they go crazy, a Den can manage these basic necessities. They can also generally manage clothing, whether through the use of skins of large game animals, or sending the lowest Rage member into town on a semi-regular basis. They will typically maintain a PO Box or a halfway house closer to town so that the same runner can also pickup mail for members and things which cannot be acquired in stores can be ordered.
It is important to remember that Dens are, almost without exception, established and maintained with a technology and resource availability closer to the late 1700s than the 21st century. Indoor plumbing is rare, though doable, given that ancient civilizations did manage it, and electricity even more so. This is not to say that there is no electricity at any Den, but part of living of the grid is living off the power grid. All electricity available to a Den is generated by the Den, either with technologies such as solar, wind or hydro-power, or seriously having a few otherwise useless pups sit on exercise bikes with magnets and wires. Most Dens have at least one member who is technically inclined and able to rig such things up given time and books. More generally, individuals in a Den who want electricity have generators, and prioritize their power use. Weapons can be bought in a Den, but they are almost always made by a member of the Den, and often "paid for" through at least some amount of barter and favours. Getting someone else to do your hunting while you make their gun can be more useful than a couple hundred dollars, especially if you don't get out to town much. Often Den members pay other members for goods and services on a "Half Cash/Half Trade" system, but particularly old members who may risk a frenzy any time they leave the Den may lean more heavily on trade than cash.
Entertainment in the Den
A lot of life in the Den is spent hunting, farming, crafting or otherwise providing for the Den. But not all of it is. Being overworked can risk frenzy, and it's important to give members time to relax, as well as opportunities to sublimate their Rage. Most Dens try to maintain libraries, contributed to by the members, that are really more of just communal bookshelves where members leave books they've grown tired of and are free to pick up a new copy. It's generally considered bad form to tear up a book in a frenzy, and a werewolf who does so is expected to replace it, but it's understood that that happens from time to time. A part of this library may also be music, usually on an eclectic array of mediums, from 8-tracks to cassettes to cds and even memory cards, as well as devices to listen to it on. Batteries can almost become a currency of their own in the Dens for this reason.
The Ring
Every Den has at least one large circle, typically made of cobblestones or painstakingly place pebbles, usually in the middle of the Den, and surrounded by torches. These have a very specific purpose--being a place for tearing the ever loving shit out of another werewolf, possibly because they've pissed you off.
One of the best ways for werewolves to avoid frenzy is to regularly engage in combat. Given their self-assumed purpose as the guardians of the earth against evil spirits, this suits the werewolves just fine as it also helps them maintain their skills. The Ring is a place for entertainment, airing of grievances, and proving oneself. They will always be lit, and the larger the Den, the more likely they are to be in use at any given moment.
Rings also serve as a casual social area for werewolves, and are surrounded by enough free space for the Den to sit around them to spectate, some may have actual risers or bleachers or benches, but there is always space for everyone who lives in the Den.
Any time there is a duel going on in the Ring, there will be at least a few werewolves watching, and often betting on the outcome. And then when the match is done, it's not uncommon for a couple of the spectators to rush in and reoccupy it to settle an argument related to the bet.
Social Interaction, and the Lack Thereof
Because every werewolf has to deal with Rage, they tend to be a bit more sensitive in the area of social interaction, and have a few customs regarding such. It is generally assumed that any werewolf relaxing in a public area of the Den, such as the Hall, or around the Ring, is open to talking and interacting with others. Those who are not have their own homes to relax in. Werewolves are very territorial, both because they're spiritually wolves, and because of their Rage, and a werewolf who is outside their home is not assumed to be taking visitors, as a human might be. Dwellings in the Den are typically encircled by small fences, and socially these fences are treated as if they were 9 foot tall solid walls for the purposes of interacting with the resident. Because Rage can be so hair trigger, werewolves are more likely to wave to, or sit just outside the fence of one they wish to visit, and let the werewolf at home respond or not as they will (in cases of emergencies, well, needs must). These fences also typically have at least one flag, or some manner of mechanical rig (such as a bucket and pulleys, or a track attached to a bucket inside) that allows visitors to let the inhabitant know someone's there. Some even have several flags or other signals in various colours so that a visitor's needs or intentions can be communicated--maybe a werewolf is fine with receiving friends, but not in the mood to accept commissions, or they need to focus on work, and friends need to wait. Werewolves also make use of whiteboards and other signs to head off visitors.
While this may seem elabourate, or rude, or ridiculous, remember, it could be the difference between a bruised ego and a torn off face.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Judging__Eagle
- Prince
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- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada
Prak,
After reading through that post on Dens, I realized that it could be used to outline how"monster villages" in general; at least in After Sundown.
Most likely more information would have to be added to deal with the master passions other than Rage; but this is a good jumping off point.
After reading through that post on Dens, I realized that it could be used to outline how"monster villages" in general; at least in After Sundown.
Most likely more information would have to be added to deal with the master passions other than Rage; but this is a good jumping off point.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
I think you're overestimating how tricky setting up the village is. The secret isn't "people live here", it's "the people who live here are werewolves". You can just be on the grid and get deliveries, so long as you can keep the delivery guys from noticing.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
- Posts: 2668
- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:33 pm
- Location: Trudging up the Hill
For just a moment, I thought this was commentary on TGDMB.Prak wrote:Life in the Den
"Do you have any idea what it's like to spend 70% of your time around a bunch of self-righteous assholes who always think they know better, and are all prepared to open an artery over the slightest provocation--and then go into the normal world?"
Then:
Werewolves
I don't know, it's still a pretty accurate description of dealing with a lot of denners.RadiantPhoenix wrote:For just a moment, I thought this was commentary on TGDMB.Prak wrote:Life in the Den
"Do you have any idea what it's like to spend 70% of your time around a bunch of self-righteous assholes who always think they know better, and are all prepared to open an artery over the slightest provocation--and then go into the normal world?"
Then:Werewolves
As did I.RadiantPhoenix wrote:For just a moment, I thought this was commentary on TGDMB.Prak wrote:Life in the Den
"Do you have any idea what it's like to spend 70% of your time around a bunch of self-righteous assholes who always think they know better, and are all prepared to open an artery over the slightest provocation--and then go into the normal world?"
Then:Werewolves
True, the problem is that a fucked up box can quickly turn into "Delivery man torn to pieces in hick town, authorities searching for cause, news at 11" and the old fogies who walk around in crinos because it's more comfortable or they're senile and don't notice. Part of the point is to separate werewolves from the mundane public to minimize the number of times they flip out and kill civvies. I mean, they could set things up so there are basically two villages, one on the grid which receives deliveries, and another one a little further out where the real problem cases live.name_here wrote:I think you're overestimating how tricky setting up the village is. The secret isn't "people live here", it's "the people who live here are werewolves". You can just be on the grid and get deliveries, so long as you can keep the delivery guys from noticing.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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TheFlatline
- Prince
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- Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm
You're really basing game design theory off of the "Fucking the DM" feat?Prak wrote:I guess our game was more the former. Anyone who joined the pack basically gave up whatever human life they had, the notable exception being the ST's girlfriend, except that her "human" life was really more just having a kinfolk husband and kids and maintaining a wolf perserve, so, you know, not really a human life, just a life outside of the pack.
...no?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
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- Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:33 pm
- Location: Trudging up the Hill
Essentially, yeah. But my group's also a really bad example, because we never worried about snapping in the middle of down town and ripping someone to shreds. If we needed a giant fucking gun, we just went and bought one. We also drove around in a giant fuck all fetished Humvees covered in dragon scales and teeth and holding the spirit of an APC.
We were essentially a giant, flaming, rocket shooting middle finger to the masquerade, doing basically everything short of walking down the street in crinos holding a sign saying "WEREWOLVES ARE REAL" in giant neon letters. We got our liaison to the elders elected president once.
We were essentially a giant, flaming, rocket shooting middle finger to the masquerade, doing basically everything short of walking down the street in crinos holding a sign saying "WEREWOLVES ARE REAL" in giant neon letters. We got our liaison to the elders elected president once.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Its a great writeup, but I'm not sure its entirely appropriate for PCs. I mean, what exactly do you do when you live in a super-isolated rural community that all of your potential enemies presumably have no reason to go to?
Assuming that your PCs are Gaias secret police in whatever fashion (either policing spirits or being ecoterrorists depending on edition) they do need regular interaction with the human community.
The very minimum you can have is Twilight, where the teenagers from the isolated werewolf community still go to the local highschool, but that's good for a limited number of adventures (unless its Sunnydale highschool). In general your rural community is going to have one or two problems, perhaps seven if you can stretch it out like an FX original series. In Twilight, the core issue was Bella wanting to fuck a vampire and all issues arose from that.
Basically, the way I see it there's a few ways you can go.
1)The Incredible Hulk (or Classic King-Fu; or Supernatural) - Your characters are nomadic. They Walk the Earth, getting into adventures in a new town every week. They might want to settle down but they really don't have much choice. They have a job to do and also they flip out and kill people. Usually, they kill the bad guys, but even so they have to move out one step ahead of authorities who will be investigating the mauled corpses and reports of a giant hairy person.
2)Kung Fu: The Legend Continues (or Dresden Files; or Angel) - Rather than being nomadic, you're part of a large urban community in a major city. People might not know that you're a werewolf, but they do know that you help people who have unusual problems. And, of course, there's the extensive supernatural community, as well. You have to balance your activities both to maintain your community standing, and avoid police attention. Rage is a problem both because you're dealing with supernatural politics and normal people and the cops and trying to do the right thing.
The third possibility is
3)Charmed (or Buffy): You're the guardian of something important. Everyone knows this. All the badguys come to your house or your highschool or whatever. A lot of the time you don't even need to put in a effort to find them. They should really know better by now.
1 and 2, I think, are more viable than 3.
Urban Werewolves just give you more room for dealing with stuff. You can still have werewolf enclaves, but in the middle of cities rather than in the middle of nowhere.
Assuming that your PCs are Gaias secret police in whatever fashion (either policing spirits or being ecoterrorists depending on edition) they do need regular interaction with the human community.
The very minimum you can have is Twilight, where the teenagers from the isolated werewolf community still go to the local highschool, but that's good for a limited number of adventures (unless its Sunnydale highschool). In general your rural community is going to have one or two problems, perhaps seven if you can stretch it out like an FX original series. In Twilight, the core issue was Bella wanting to fuck a vampire and all issues arose from that.
Basically, the way I see it there's a few ways you can go.
1)The Incredible Hulk (or Classic King-Fu; or Supernatural) - Your characters are nomadic. They Walk the Earth, getting into adventures in a new town every week. They might want to settle down but they really don't have much choice. They have a job to do and also they flip out and kill people. Usually, they kill the bad guys, but even so they have to move out one step ahead of authorities who will be investigating the mauled corpses and reports of a giant hairy person.
2)Kung Fu: The Legend Continues (or Dresden Files; or Angel) - Rather than being nomadic, you're part of a large urban community in a major city. People might not know that you're a werewolf, but they do know that you help people who have unusual problems. And, of course, there's the extensive supernatural community, as well. You have to balance your activities both to maintain your community standing, and avoid police attention. Rage is a problem both because you're dealing with supernatural politics and normal people and the cops and trying to do the right thing.
The third possibility is
3)Charmed (or Buffy): You're the guardian of something important. Everyone knows this. All the badguys come to your house or your highschool or whatever. A lot of the time you don't even need to put in a effort to find them. They should really know better by now.
1 and 2, I think, are more viable than 3.
Urban Werewolves just give you more room for dealing with stuff. You can still have werewolf enclaves, but in the middle of cities rather than in the middle of nowhere.
The writeup was more about NPC background werewolves. The PCs would presumably wander the earth, or be embroiled in city plots, and being PCs, they're exceptional, and thus less of a potential problem. The villages are more a place they go to connect to their werewolf roots and contacts, and probably talk to the elders. When they're on the case, they're probably in a hotel room, or camping somewhat near whatever industrial hellhole they're supposed to be sabotaging.
And that much is based on the games I played in.
edit: also, there would totally be urban werewolf enclaves too. The Bonegnawers and Glass Walkers were genuinely some of the more interesting werewolves, more involved in walking the razor's edge between a stat of nature and human civilization. Bonegnawers probably hide their enclaves as homeless camps or squater tenements. Glass Walkers have fucking LAN set ups in high rise enclaves where all the consoles/computers are military grade rugged and they get their rage out in frag fests. That probably still end with Dave trying to choke Greg with the 2 liter of Mountain Dew.
And that much is based on the games I played in.
edit: also, there would totally be urban werewolf enclaves too. The Bonegnawers and Glass Walkers were genuinely some of the more interesting werewolves, more involved in walking the razor's edge between a stat of nature and human civilization. Bonegnawers probably hide their enclaves as homeless camps or squater tenements. Glass Walkers have fucking LAN set ups in high rise enclaves where all the consoles/computers are military grade rugged and they get their rage out in frag fests. That probably still end with Dave trying to choke Greg with the 2 liter of Mountain Dew.
Last edited by Prak on Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
As I was reading this, I couldn't help but to be reminded of Burn Notice (total genre break, I know, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing):
Carry on.
I was just struck by the similarities in theme, that's all.hyzmarca wrote: 2)Kung Fu: The Legend Continues (or Dresden Files; or Angel) Burn Notice - Rather than being nomadic, you're part of a large urban community in a major city. People might not know that you're a werewolfspy, but they do know that you help people who have unusual problems. And, of course, there's the extensive supernaturalspy community, as well. You have to balance your activities both to maintain your community standing, and avoid police attention. RageBeing burned is a problem both because you're dealing with supernaturalspy politics and normal people and the cops and trying to do the right thing.
Carry on.
Last edited by ACOS on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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BoxCrayonTales
- 1st Level
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Pretty much the entire reason why Garou and Atha-Ur* could not reproduce with their own kind (at least until nWoD 2nd edition) was precisely to prevent this sort of isolationism. The whole conceit of "rage is dangerous" doesn't hold water if you can just isolate yourself from the normals forever.
*Pig-Sumerian for "people wolves," because "uratha" is easily confused for "urethra."
*Pig-Sumerian for "people wolves," because "uratha" is easily confused for "urethra."
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Username17
- Serious Badass
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- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Yeah, but the problem there was that this didn't work. Like, at all. The fact of the matter is that players do not normally give a rat fuck what their character is going to do when they are 38 and wearing mom jeans. It's just not something players tend to think about on any level. So the entire imperative to go out and fuck humans to keep the species going makes very little difference.BoxCrayonTales wrote:Pretty much the entire reason why Garou and Atha-Ur* could not reproduce with their own kind (at least until nWoD 2nd edition) was precisely to prevent this sort of isolationism. The whole conceit of "rage is dangerous" doesn't hold water if you can just isolate yourself from the normals forever.
*Pig-Sumerian for "people wolves," because "uratha" is easily confused for "urethra."
And no to put too fine a point on it: but the requirement to fuck a human doesn't really create any imperative to live with humans. It just encourages you to go do one night stands at dive bars or... worse things. It just doesn't create any dynamic where you give a fuck about having difficulties fitting in to human society and having a job. It does create incentives to talk about rape, and that's disgusting. Moving on.
If you want players to care about their difficulties hanging out in society, you need to give them incentives to actually hang out in society. Require the werewolves to investigate malls and DMV offices for a period of time before they can figure out where the evil spirits are. Give them solid benefits for "feeding the human side" by holding a job and going to the movies and having friends and shit. You don't have to go the full Night Life and tie peoples' magic power XP gain directly to holding customer service jobs, but that would actually work.
Basically, the entire Werewolf breeding system is bad. The parts of it that aren't corrosive to the game and offensive to the sensibilities (dog rape, regular rape) are nonetheless complete failures of design. There's no reason for me to identify with the Shadowlords just because I'm miscellaneously Slavic in ancestry, I'm a fucking American. There's no reason for my character to give a shit about the complicated mating quandaries because he's 19 years old and is too young to be a father anyway. It's all crap. Werewolves should either be infective or new Werewolves should be chosen from the human population at large by spirits or reincarnation charts or some fucking thing.
If you want to keep the spirit of World of Darkness, you shouldn't cargo cult in failed design specs, because the spirit of World of Darkness was never supposed to be "failure."
-Username17
....How sure are we of that? I mean... it happened so consistently that it may as well have been a design goal.Frank wrote:If you want to keep the spirit of World of Darkness, you shouldn't cargo cult in failed design specs, because the spirit of World of Darkness was never supposed to be "failure."
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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BoxCrayonTales
- 1st Level
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I totally agree.FrankTrollman wrote:Basically, the entire Werewolf breeding system is bad.
WitchCraft handled this pretty well: lycanthropes were the result of permanent spirit possession caused by an angry spirit's curse. The cursed individual would pass the curse to his descendants and if any of them were killed the possessing spirit would try to take the hunter as its new host. The curse was still manageable and lycanthropes were viable PC options with nifty spirit powers.
The Everlasting just replaced them with people who made pacts with spirits to cohabit and become defenders of Earth from Cthulhu's friends and (the much less dangerous in comparison) human pollution. (They also had the usual Hollywood infectious werewolves as moderately evil antagonists.)
Stop that line of thinking right there. When designing your spiritual sequel, examine everything with a critical eye. Why do I need rule X? What purpose does it serve? Is it in any way offensive to the sensibilities of modern society? If there is a problem, how can I fix it?Prak wrote:....How sure are we of that? I mean... it happened so consistently that it may as well have been a design goal.
If you want werewolves to struggle with their rage and fitting in, as Frank argues, you need to give them a reason to interact with the normals despite (or even because of) the danger of rage. Maybe healthy interactions are the only thing keeping the character's rage from completely taking over: if they accept that it cannot be helped and isolate themselves, then the rage slowly takes over and all rational thought is lost forever.
Last edited by BoxCrayonTales on Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every time you say something good about WitchCraft, it makes me lose just a little more credence for your ideas, Box. The only good thing to come out of Eden Studios was All Flesh. Trendy Wicca bandwagon stuff is and always was horrible.
and how, in any way, is my suggesting that Failure may have been a design goal of WW related to Werewolf Husbandry?
and how, in any way, is my suggesting that Failure may have been a design goal of WW related to Werewolf Husbandry?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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RadiantPhoenix
- Prince
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- Location: Trudging up the Hill
WW's implementation of werewolf husbandry was a failure of design, as were a lot of things. So many, in fact, that you suggested that failure may have been a design goal of WW.Prak wrote:and how, in any way, is my suggesting that Failure may have been a design goal of WW related to Werewolf Husbandry?
... I'm pretty sure that was the train of conversation.
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BoxCrayonTales
- 1st Level
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:05 pm
That's not why I'm interested in it. Mage The Ascension did the same thing and it did it way worse. Ignoring the Wicca, WitchCraft is actually a much better designed game than world of darkness. You did actually read the books to form that opinion, right?Prak wrote:Every time you say something good about WitchCraft, it makes me lose just a little more credence for your ideas, Box. The only good thing to come out of Eden Studios was All Flesh. Trendy Wicca bandwagon stuff is and always was horrible.
Ok, looking at Box's post again, I think where he lost me was that he seemed to think that my joke at the expense of WW was somehow my actually suggesting that we keep that design goal.RadiantPhoenix wrote:WW's implementation of werewolf husbandry was a failure of design, as were a lot of things. So many, in fact, that you suggested that failure may have been a design goal of WW.Prak wrote:and how, in any way, is my suggesting that Failure may have been a design goal of WW related to Werewolf Husbandry?
... I'm pretty sure that was the train of conversation.
The first step to fixing WoD is to look at what their design goals may have been given the product they produced, and then revise those goals. So really, what I'm saying is that Design Goal 1 for WoD Rehab is "Don't Fail."
I glanced through it, because a game called Witchcraft tickles certain parts of my brain, especially when coupled with late 90s/early 00s Matrix-inspired esoteripunk style.Box wrote:That's not why I'm interested in it. Mage The Ascension did the same thing and it did it way worse. Ignoring the Wicca, WitchCraft is actually a much better designed game than world of darkness. You did actually read the books to form that opinion, right?
But the "OH. It's Wiccans thinking they're badass," realization at the store made me put it back.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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BoxCrayonTales
- 1st Level
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:05 pm
I actually read it cover to cover. Most of the text I don't really remember. I think this gives me a wee bit more authority to pass judgment on it.Prak wrote:I glanced through it, because a game called Witchcraft tickles certain parts of my brain, especially when coupled with late 90s/early 00s Matrix-inspired esoteripunk style.
But the "OH. It's Wiccans thinking they're badass," realization at the store made me put it back.
Yes, it has wiccans as one PC option, but judging from all the supernatural soap operas I've watched in the past decade, that's par the course and needs no comment. I will give Carella kudos for actually doing the research, even if she's basically tossing Wicca, spiritualism, Kabbalah, animism, Lovecraft and whatever else she could think of into a blender of the bizarre.
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Omegonthesane
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I found the core rules for apparently legally free as a teenager, read through them, vaguely remembered an interesting setting and facepalmed repeatedly at them shoehorning in Divine Inspiration as a power source at fucking all even if it was only one of a bunch of character options.BoxCrayonTales wrote:I actually read it cover to cover. Most of the text I don't really remember. I think this gives me a wee bit more authority to pass judgment on it.Prak wrote:I glanced through it, because a game called Witchcraft tickles certain parts of my brain, especially when coupled with late 90s/early 00s Matrix-inspired esoteripunk style.
But the "OH. It's Wiccans thinking they're badass," realization at the store made me put it back.
Yes, it has wiccans as one PC option, but judging from all the supernatural soap operas I've watched in the past decade, that's par the course and needs no comment. I will give Carella kudos for actually doing the research, even if she's basically tossing Wicca, spiritualism, Kabbalah, animism, Lovecraft and whatever else she could think of into a blender of the bizarre.
Mostly, though, I remember the bit where the writer explained why they bothered to give actual stats to the Mad God who gets summoned if you fuck up the sample adventure, so that you can imagine the amount of firepower that would be needed to defeat it even if you then are aware that that's way beyond a PC's budget.
Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.
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