Paradox Buys White Wolf from CCP

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:49 pm

Not to mention that the overwhelming majority of potential players are ideologically compatible with the Technocracy in the first place.

I remember reading a rant - was it on this very forum? - where a person said that they could roleplay a Tradition member okay, until the issue of vaccines came up. The idea of people stubbornly not getting their kids vaccinated, and being right in doing so (because belief determines reality), so infuriated the poster that they couldn't continue with the game line.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:17 am

Limiting the technocracy to certain groups would work, like if Steve Jobs was their leader so android owners have to fight against his reality warping spells.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:14 am

Unfortunately, if Vampire is the flagship franchise the Technocracy should probably be eliminated entirely. Reduce the different traditions to cultural groups, no one's write, no one's wrong, and there is no technomagic. Just increase the impact of Paradox (and throw in some technological Weaver spirits enforcing paradox) to explain why mages maintain a masquerade and don't rule the world. Get rid of nephandi and marauders too while you're at it.

The central premise of 'magic is you bending reality through will but you believe it's a set of cultural practices until you're sufficiently enlightened' still works without all the rest. You can still have mages trying to save the environment, achieve immortality, bring about the book of revelation, transcend consciousness, and all the other mage-y things without that imposed conflict. While the war for reality in oMage was certainly a conflict of great importance, it inherently dwarfed the other product lines - the victorious mage faction could simply will the Apocalypse and Gehenna out of existence as a side effect of their victory.

I'd scrap sphere magic too, and replace it with something much closer to how VtM thaumaturgy worked (thaum wasn't a good system by any means, there were way too many broken paths and rituals but it was way more manageable than sphere magic). If you did that you could give mages a role in the vampire world in the position played by the Tremere, Giovanni, and other sorcerer clans. So long as each major mage tradition had some useful goal that was otherwise orthogonal to vampire politics but provided rewards useful to individual vampires (permanent ritual benefits or something) that would provide mage players with something to do and give vampire payers a reason to help them.

You could probably do something similar with werewolves by slotting them into the 'dedicated heavies' grouping, with the various werewolf clans serving as ritualized mercenaries for vampires in roles similar to those played by certain types of Assamite and Gangrel characters. Each clan might retain a motive to reclaim ancestral homelands or cairns or something but they need vampiric aid due to low numbers because humanity mortally wounded the wolf spirit or some such so they can't reproduce properly because the souls of their ancestors are trapped.

Looking at it like this, I can see how One World of Darkness could be done, but Paradox really needs to be willing to take the hammer to Werewolf and Mage. You have to make the best possible Vampire game that has werewolves and mages in it rather than making three different games that try to play together.

K · Post by K » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:08 am

You could make Mage playable by changing belief determines reality to belief shapes magical energy. Then you can have Trad mages with cellphones and vaccines because those things work objectively while deathbots and immortality fruit specifically need magical energy to work, and that crap has a limited lifespan when muggles are watching so we all need them to not go poking around our shit.

Paradox would then just be the explanation or why magic fizzles when too many muggles are watching, and backlashes are botches. Cutting the whole Paradox points mechanic where the ST decides when and how to sodomize you is a must.

Coincidental magic also needs to go. That shit was annoying.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:14 am

K wrote: and that crap has a limited lifespan when muggles are watching so we all need them to not go poking around our shit.

could you strengthen magical effects by having a bunch of non-mages believe it? Like if Donald Trump was a mage and his presidential campaign is reshaping the reality of America via belief from his supporters.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:32 pm

Mechalich wrote:Unfortunately, if Vampire is the flagship franchise the Technocracy should probably be eliminated entirely.

Black-suited G-men who erase evidence of the supernatural, using what looks like high-tech gadgets, is something that should exist though -- it seems like it fits right in the with the "Masquerade" idea.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:48 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Mechalich wrote:Unfortunately, if Vampire is the flagship franchise the Technocracy should probably be eliminated entirely.
Black-suited G-men who erase evidence of the supernatural, using what looks like high-tech gadgets, is something that should exist though -- it seems like it fits right in the with the "Masquerade" idea.

The problem is, if the Technocracy enforces the Masquerade on the behalf of Vampires and thereby saves them from themselves, then you rob the Vampires of agency, which is a problem. Besides, the only way you an have the Technocracy reliably do that is by being more powerful than the Vampires, which is also a problem.

The reality is that, assuming you manage the power bloat reasonably well in Vampire, the CIA and government special forces units are already a formidable threat to all but the eldest vampires with the proper prep. Using mundane, government-backed hunters to contain vampires is better for the setting than having technomages do it.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:43 pm

K wrote: Coincidental magic also needs to go. That shit was annoying.

But, Coincidental magic is fun.

I love the Syndicate's coincidental Correspondence 3 Rote, Summon Taxi. It just requires a telephone and a credit card and a conveyance magically comes to your location, complete with driver. Absolutely no paradox.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:47 pm

No, that's a great example of why the Spheres either need to be removed entirely or explained much, much better. Because all Corr 3 can do is affect the spatial relationships between things, not affect people's minds, summon a transport, or anything that falls into the domain of other Spheres.

There's no fundamental problem with Coincidental Magic. But it does need to be clarified. Simply saying that magic which a casual observer would mistake for a mundane action is significantly less paradoxical than one that's obviously paranormal would do it.

There'd then be three categories: magic that goes along with the world's rules (mundane stuff), magic that limited human observers would mistake for normal (coincidental), magic that even human observers know don't match the local rules (vulgar).

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:10 pm

Mechalich wrote:
RadiantPhoenix wrote:
Mechalich wrote:Unfortunately, if Vampire is the flagship franchise the Technocracy should probably be eliminated entirely.
Black-suited G-men who erase evidence of the supernatural, using what looks like high-tech gadgets, is something that should exist though -- it seems like it fits right in the with the "Masquerade" idea.
The problem is, if the Technocracy enforces the Masquerade on the behalf of Vampires and thereby saves them from themselves, then you rob the Vampires of agency, which is a problem. Besides, the only way you an have the Technocracy reliably do that is by being more powerful than the Vampires, which is also a problem.

Who said anything about enforcing the Masquerade on behalf of the vampires? If the MiB show up, they fucking purge it with fire and plasma and mind-erasure units that undo all that careful presence and dominate conditioning.

The Technocracy enforces something similar to the Masquerade because they believe humanity shouldn't be subjected to that shit. But their solution isn't to just cover it up and let the vampires go about their business, their solution is to remove the core problem to begin with.

In fact, a Technocracy style bad guy might be an answer for how Vampires survive in today's cellphone laden world. They monitor the internet and filter it real time (shit the NSA is almost to the point where they can do the monitoring part today), using youtube videos and shit as evidence to go dispatch teams to wipe out the supernatural.

Of course, there's only so much manpower and processing power, which is how websites like timecube fly under the radar. Uncle Joe ranting about communist vampires that send antisemitic meatloaf recipes to aliens isn't going to be high priority. So you can still have that "the truth is out there!" vibe running through the setting.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:24 pm

Insofar as the setting supports anything, I don't think it supports war between the Technocrats and the Camarilla. The closest you can get to reconciling those setups as written is that the Technocracy is willing to tolerate the vampires as long as they do their best to keep their own existence covered; because an actual war with the paradox-immune leeches would be a normality-shredding nightmare.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:27 pm

So what you're saying is that we need Bolshevik Tzimisce who are conspiring with the Souleaters to infect Europes Jewish population using tainted food?

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:47 pm

No, he's saying we need to ally with the Soviets to take down the Axis, even though we hate the Soviet's guts with a passion.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:49 pm

hyzmarca wrote:
K wrote: Coincidental magic also needs to go. That shit was annoying.
But, Coincidental magic is fun.

I love the Syndicate's coincidental Correspondence 3 Rote, Summon Taxi. It just requires a telephone and a credit card and a conveyance magically comes to your location, complete with driver. Absolutely no paradox.

You think you are being funny, eh? Mister funny guy?

Mage 20 wrote:As an instrument, management and human resources demands time, patience, and connections. The average schmo cannot snap his fingers and have a magical cabbie deliver him instantly from New York to DC. Ah – but a manager with clout can call Transport Services and have a helicopter waiting nearby within minutes; two or three hours later, he’s gone from his executive suite in Manhattan to the steps of the Supreme Court, where an escort’s waiting to usher him into a meeting with the judges who’ll decide a case at the heart of U.S law… and thus, reality is changed. In game terms, the player could say that he used management as a tool of the dominion practice, focusing his belief in political power to perform a Correspondence 3/ Mind 3 Effect. No Paradox, little risk – that mage plays by Reality’s rules, at the cost of a bit of time, indirect action, and some socially leveraged power.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:53 pm

The Corr 3 part would only be relevant if the character did NOT change his position and was trying to exercise influence from a distance. And in modern society, that sort of magic would be utterly redundant given our communication network. (That sort of thing originally *was* a kind of Correspondence magic, making events occur at a distance.)

Shoot the author of that quoted text, and let us continue.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:24 pm

Camarilla vs. Technocracy would be a cool game, and would fit reasonably well with the balance of the backstory ignored or downplayed. Basically, those two factions are the coolest elements of WoD so newer-not new-WoD (nnnWoD?) would be wise to focus on those and handwaive the black hand and bane mummies and whatnot into the background.

The secret ancient history is that the Technocracy overthrew the vampires by teaching Science to the mundanes.

Now they're both conspiracies fighting for secret world domination. The Tradition mages are tolerated by the Camarilla because they have a heretical stance that monsters aren't so bad (their use of voodoo and crystal healing and stuff is a consequence of being generally soft in the head) - Pentex is a faction within the Technocracy that secretly studies the monsters, and sponsors the Black Spiral Dancers and Sabbat, which would be a minor vampire faction except that the Technocracy keeps propping them up - Werewolves are a relatively minor force but allied with the Camarilla (whom they hate) because the Technocracy is a bigger threat.

So a Camarilla party would be four flavors of vampire, a mage and a werewolf. Some factions of the Camarilla are pointlessly evil, and would have the same setup roughly, but presumably the players are good guys.

An equally-playable Technocracy party would be four flavors of Technomancer, a Sabbat Vampire and a Black Spiral Dancer. Some of these factions are pretty evil, but presumably the players are good guys.

Is that too dualistic? Does anyone care to suggest a third illuminati - from ANYWHERE in the entire oWoD canon - that isn't basically lame?

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:43 pm

"In politics the tripod is the most unstable of structures."

Either keep it at two, or up it to five. Simpler to stay at two, I think.

angelfromanotherpin · Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:15 pm

In that kind of setup, I would get the other politics from internal divisions among the big two. Vampires who think the Masquerade is bullshit and are constantly pushing its limits to try to move the window of accepted behavior. Technarchs who think open war is desirable for whatever reason and are running whatever offense they think won't get them decompiled at the disciplinary hearing (sometimes a kill-bot just malfunctions, y'know?). Conciliatory people on both sides who support a spectrum of variously-practical compromises. The cold-warrior majorities that maintain the current balance of horror. There's a lot of room for subfactions in there.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:03 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:The closest you can get to reconciling those setups as written is that the Technocracy is willing to tolerate the vampires as long as they do their best to keep their own existence covered.

That's how the NWO works, actually. They let the monsters police themselves.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:24 am

The whole 'the Technocracy largely ignores vampires' bit is part of the oWoD game design of trying to keep the games as separate as possible. The metaplot explicitly violated this at several points anyway, notably in the week of nightmares. This was necessary because in oWoD Mages curb-stomped Vampires in about ten seconds flat if they had no thaumaturgy, and about ten minutes if they did. Heck you could run mortals armed with Technocracy gear - Hardsuits, incendiary ammo, a few super drugs, and they could wreck vampires fairly well without any active effects.

The power level available in Mage was so much higher than Vampire or Werewolf that it wasn't even funny. Not for nothing were the stats for military hardware printed in Technomacher's Toybox, a Mage supplement. Heck, if you could find a suitable target for it, you could absolutely deploy nuclear weaponry in a Technocracy game.

There's really no way to nerf sphere magic hard enough to reduce the mages down to vampiric power levels (especially because presumably you're nerfing Celerity and some of the other stupidly broken systems in vampire at the same time) while keeping the spirit of sphere magic.

Personally I think you could actually make better games by splitting them apart completely and making the worlds explicitly different, but I know that's not was the fanbase wants, so in order to make things work you have to seriously change the nature of werewolves and mages. If you did that, and the resulting Vampire system was good enough, then I don't think anyone would care.

The key to a WoD relaunch, if you're Paradox, is probably making a good video game and releasing new tabletop rules at more or less the same time. That means the fluff you keep and build around should be stuff that fits the needs of a video game (probably a third person RPG/actioner or an isometric RPG) - which probably relegates mages to seer or crafter type characters who handle critical McGuffins, and werewolves to some sort of cameo role in major boss fights as allies and/or antagonists.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:09 am

Mechalich wrote: The key to a WoD relaunch, if you're Paradox, is probably making a good video game and releasing new tabletop rules at more or less the same time. That means the fluff you keep and build around should be stuff that fits the needs of a video game (probably a third person RPG/actioner or an isometric RPG) - which probably relegates mages to seer or crafter type characters who handle critical McGuffins, and werewolves to some sort of cameo role in major boss fights as allies and/or antagonists.

A spiritual successor or sequel to Bloodlines is probably the best way to go in terms on a video game. Because there was still people making fan patches and mods for Bloodlines today, and it was released 11 years ago.

Bloodlines is pretty much the Vampire: The Masquarade video game, and everyone will be dissapointed by a new game that doesn't follow in its footsteps, preferably while ironing out the kinks. Because, damn, it did have some problems.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:37 am

Occluded Sun wrote:The Corr 3 part would only be relevant if the character did NOT change his position and was trying to exercise influence from a distance. And in modern society, that sort of magic would be utterly redundant given our communication network. (That sort of thing originally *was* a kind of Correspondence magic, making events occur at a distance.)

Shoot the author of that quoted text, and let us continue.

I don't know if this is arrogance, ignorance, mind caulk or (given that it's you specifically) all three but a Corr 3 rote to summon a taxi is deliberately brought up for the Sphere as Effect style of play. Which was the joke hyz was making. The punchline is that oMage's magic system explanation of Sphere as Building Block is stupid and you're stupid for engaging it.

DrP's got the right idea basically splitting the factions into Cam and Crat (or supernatural focused and humanist conspiracies) who fight in the shadows and want to paternalistically guide the sheeple. K saying that belief shapes magic instead of belief shaping reality is workable, since that's how Shadowrun does it. Also, having long lasting magical shit fizzle when muggles watch it is something they do in nMage, but they had to shit on it with their weird gnosticism. The second edition also gets rid of the coincidental/vulgar split and makes Paradox happen when you fuck up casting a spell only.

Also, to bring mage in line with everybody else, the Sphere equivalents should just work like AS sorceries.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:55 am

As far as video games go, they've said the two successful video game concepts have been the Vampire RPG and the Hunter 4-player co-op thing. They are already in talks with various video game houses to try to bring out new versions of those.

Anyway, the entire magickal spheres crap is crap. No one can make sense out of any of that shit, the results are stupid and unbalanced and it doesn't do anything good. Far better to have the Mages in your setting use whatever system of magic your Vampire Tremere and Werewolf Shamans use. Less super strength, more magic paths, the end.

As far as the Technocracy goes, I would be fine with them having an explicitly Men In Black style truce with the Vampires. So as long as the Vampires don't cross certain lines, the Technocracy helps cover up their minor indiscretions and leaves them be. There's a built in excuse: the Vampires don't want open war with the humans because they think they might not win, the Technocracy doesn't want an open war between humans and Vampires because that reinforces belief in the supernatural.

Having a team that was a Brujah vampire, a Giovanni vampire, a Glasswalker werewolf, and a Technocrat mage sounds pretty awesome.

-Username17

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:11 pm

Mechalich wrote: Personally I think you could actually make better games by splitting them apart completely and making the worlds explicitly different

That is explicitly where oWOD started. And it was such a good idea that it probably lasted all of 15 minutes before being thrown out and cluster-fucked into a big orgy of headaches.

In fact, a large portion of the headaches from oWOD came from them trying to make expressly different game lines and the fanbase making a turducken out of the three lines (VampGarouKened?).

So you fail before you even get out of conceptual-land because we've already established that this solution flat won't work. You have to start designing from the point of view that crossovers are inevitable and to the fanbase even desirable.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:18 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Anyway, the entire magickal spheres crap is crap. No one can make sense out of any of that shit, the results are stupid and unbalanced and it doesn't do anything good. Far better to have the Mages in your setting use whatever system of magic your Vampire Tremere and Werewolf Shamans use. Less super strength, more magic paths, the end.

So treating Mage like Thaum you'd basically eliminate Arete and just keep Quintessence (aka blood pool)? Or would you turn Arete into gnosis/blood pool and keep quintessence separate?

At that point you could still nominally keep the circles. They're just now paths like in thaum and each path has it's own theme. They're just called circles. The individual levels of spheres are just called rotes, and suddenly everything is a lot more simplistic.