Minor game stuff from around the web for commentary...

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:20 pm

Onyx Path writer on a forum wrote:There's no slavery in the usual sense because virtually every human in Enoch is Blood Bound, and ghosts can perform unskilled labor. The liches probably have a bunch of permanently enthralled street sweepers and gofers. Enoch is a place of worship and study, a bolt hole, and most importantly, where the details of the end of the world will be figured out. Nobody living there is just somebody's butler.

So whenever you see vampires in the WoD being hypocritical (True Black Hand being prime example) - that's not an intentional shade of evil. That's literally what the writer thought is good and right.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:02 am

I spent a good fifteen minutes hunting down this thread, because I think Frank's assessment of White Wolf writers is apropos:

FT wrote:[...] Combine it with the fact that these people are wannabes for a game about pariahs. Many of them are actually pariahs.

They really have views that are simply unacceptable. Sometimes because they lead unexamined lives and don't really understand their own positions well enough to defend them or eliminate the ones that are untenable. And sometimes just because they are horrible people whose actual moral compass points to "chocolate sunday".

For fuck's sake, look at how many people on this board will get defensive about fucking actual dogs when we bring up Werewolf: the Apocalypse. Now multiply that by someone who decided that they wanted to fit in with the White Wolf inner circle in Atlanta enough to actually get a writing assignment back when Starbucks was an unknown up and coming brand.

White Wolf authors produce weird RPG content with creepy and/or disgusting implications because they are actually factually fucked in the head.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed May 04, 2016 8:09 pm

nMage 2nd edition is out. It's 70 pages shorter than the first edition despite including the basic mechanics that were previously entirely in nWoD corebook.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Wed May 04, 2016 8:39 pm

Longes wrote:
Onyx Path writer on a forum wrote:There's no slavery in the usual sense because virtually every human in Enoch is Blood Bound, and ghosts can perform unskilled labor. The liches probably have a bunch of permanently enthralled street sweepers and gofers. Enoch is a place of worship and study, a bolt hole, and most importantly, where the details of the end of the world will be figured out. Nobody living there is just somebody's butler.
So whenever you see vampires in the WoD being hypocritical (True Black Hand being prime example) - that's not an intentional shade of evil. That's literally what the writer thought is good and right.

This is disingenious bullshit. Now, Malcolm was an ass as well, and his first resort was to start flinging condescending insults instead of clearing up the misunderstanding, but he did in fact clear it up:

Malcolm Sheppard, on the White Wolf forums wrote: Of course it's slavery! All Neall and I are saying is that it isn't (those three words Sam doesn't want to deal with) in the usual sense. Meaning, many of the assumptions that accompany the term are absent, which are those typically related to chattel slavery, which has s specific definition that, like those three words, you don't want to talk about. Because y'all are trying to have a Hot Take Moment. Rest assured neither Neall nor I believe what happens to chatterlings is totally okay, nor would we disagree that what happens to them can be solidly defined as human trafficking.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed May 04, 2016 8:41 pm

He wrote that later, and defending his initial statement with "I was talking specifically about chattel slavery" is a stupid excuse. Slavery is slavery, whether it is enforced by chains or by magical drugs.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Wed May 04, 2016 8:43 pm

Yes, but his point (which was evident to me at least from his initial comment) was that when it's enforced by magical drugs and necromancy, the logistics are much easier. And also, that the human slaves are not a labor force, so assumptions about how efficient it would be to maintain such in Enoch are not relevant.

Malcolm again wrote:Nobody living there is just somebody's butler.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed May 04, 2016 9:49 pm

Malcolm's attempts to spin that reprehensible garbage are like Republican senate candidates or Whoopi Goldberg splitting hairs about legitimate rape. I respect him less for doing it, and the original comment is not in any way rehabilitated by the prevarication.

-Username17

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu May 05, 2016 1:24 am

Schleiermacher wrote:Yes, but his point (which was evident to me at least from his initial comment) was that when it's enforced by magical drugs and necromancy, the logistics are much easier. And also, that the human slaves are not a labor force, so assumptions about how efficient it would be to maintain such in Enoch are not relevant.

Malcolm again wrote:Nobody living there is just somebody's butler.

What the fuck are you even trying to defend here? The fact that it's not chattel slavery? The logistics of the human/ghost slaves? The moral utility of Enoch slavery?

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Thu May 05, 2016 3:38 am

I suspect he's trying to defend the implication that, while being involuntarily blood bound or controlled by necromantic magic is slavery in ethical terms, the physical setup used to support it is very, very different from chattel slavery in the Antebellum South - which is the reference frame that most Americans and many Europeans immediately reach for when the word 'slavery' is used. Based on that interpretation the 'in the usual sense' portion of the original comment is working very hard. It's a dumb phrasing regardless of what was meant, because it absolutely implies that being blood bound is not slavery.

I see it more as a manifestation of WWs burning need to attempt to be edgy, sophisticated, and different while at the same time pandering to lowest-common denominator subculture tropes. VtM is a construction built out of some incredibly camp source material slathered in a thick patina of self-seriousness. When it breaks it often breaks in really ugly ways. There's an awful lot of Fridge Horror in the WoD because WW simply never bothered to think things through.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu May 05, 2016 5:51 am

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/54 ... age-worlds

Whhhhhhhyyyyyyyyy?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Thu May 05, 2016 6:07 am

Prak wrote:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/54 ... age-worlds

Whhhhhhhyyyyyyyyy?

Looks like someone's trying to see if there's a lethal dose for mediocrity.

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Thu May 05, 2016 6:14 am

This doesn't seem like an awful fit to me. Savage Worlds has plenty of crazy outputs from its exploding dice variable TN system, but I think Rifts benefits from a fairly light rules system with a wide dynamic range. I'm reminded of the d6 RIFTS project on these very boards.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Thu May 05, 2016 10:09 am

Mechalich wrote:I suspect he's trying to defend the implication that, while being involuntarily blood bound or controlled by necromantic magic is slavery in ethical terms, the physical setup used to support it is very, very different from chattel slavery in the Antebellum South - which is the reference frame that most Americans and many Europeans immediately reach for when the word 'slavery' is used. Based on that interpretation the 'in the usual sense' portion of the original comment is working very hard. It's a dumb phrasing regardless of what was meant, because it absolutely implies that being blood bound is not slavery.

Yes, thank you Mechalich. That is exactly what I mean -and I agree that it was a very poor phrasing, but then slam him for his dumb phrasing, not for the worst reading you can impute onto it.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 05, 2016 7:06 pm

It's totally OK to slam him for anything about that. The thing he actually said was stupid and reprehensible, and hos lame attempts to notpologize make it clear he doesn't understand why the thing he said was not OK.

It was a gaffe. A thing that should not have been said. And he should apologize and walk it back, not try to split hairs about what he really meant.

-Username17

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat May 21, 2016 9:52 am

So, nnMage has a new morality scale, which features the following sin:

Wisdom 4–7, Medium / Understanding (3 dice): Most experienced and stable mages fall into this range of Wisdom. Sometimes, Acts of Hubris happen. But by and large, the mage acts with basic Wisdom most of the time. Allowing a Sleeper to witness obvious magic, thus risking greater Paradox, can cause degeneration. Self-mutilating events such as soul stone creation risk degeneration. Not attempting to contain a severe Paradox risks degeneration as well. Forcing a sapient being (whether a Sleeper, spirit, or anything else) to act counter to its interests, altering its nature long-term, or binding it to a task all risk degeneration, as does deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury.

I brought up on OPP forums that this clause makes policemen and PIs an unviable archetype that quickly desceneds into madness. Well, apparently this is intentional. By design Harry Dresden is a degenerate monster tithering on the brink of becoming a NPC. In an urban fantasy game about playing a wizard Harry Dresden is a character they don't want you to play. Wat.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:14 am

Wait, is that forcing via mind control, or forcing via societal pressures and/or legal authority? I mean, it's splitting hairs to explain how mind-controlling a murderer to not murder is worse than arresting them and placing them in prison, but at least there are hairs to split there at all.

But if forcing is forcing no matter the means... apparently what they want is an anarchist utopia where everyone just does whatever they want, man, and who are you to stop them from eating babies?

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:22 am

Koumei wrote:Wait, is that forcing via mind control, or forcing via societal pressures and/or legal authority? I mean, it's splitting hairs to explain how mind-controlling a murderer to not murder is worse than arresting them and placing them in prison, but at least there are hairs to split there at all.

In the real world, we don't lobotomize murderers either, although we arrest them quite often and sometimes they're executed.

And yes, there is a significant difference between putting people inside a cage and let them decide what to do with limited resources, and completely taking away their free will.

Never read Harry Dresden, but did he run around placing geas and mind control stuff on everybody he didn't like?

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:31 am

maglag wrote:In the real world, we don't lobotomize murderers either, although we arrest them quite often and sometimes they're executed.

A lobotomy is a very specific operation with a specific, unavoidable set of effects. If we had access to magic lobotomies that weren't like actual lobotomies at all and instead resulted in the recipient being basically the same person except not a murderer, maybe we would magic-lobotomise murderers.

I mean, various places vaguely attempt rehab anyway, which is the same thing with cruder instruments.

maglag wrote:And yes, there is a significant difference between putting people inside a cage and let them decide what to do with limited resources, and completely taking away their free will.

What free will? What makes you think they had any free will to take away?

More to the point what makes you trust that the kind of GM who runs nMage 2.0 is going to reliably take "forcing a sapient being... to act counter to its interests" to apply solely and only to magical mind control?

WRT the actual game - I take it that you cannot just start at Wisdom 3 and tell the moralising to go fuck itself. Or else that you take significant mechanical penalties for doing so instead of being able to get more XP in exchange like when I played VtM.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:46 am

Omegonthesane wrote:If we had access to magic lobotomies that weren't like actual lobotomies at all and instead resulted in the recipient being basically the same person except not a murderer, maybe we would magic-lobotomise murderers.

Chemical castration. It's proved to make rapists less aggressive and prone to be rehabilitated. Ask around and see what people think of it.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:53 am

Koumei wrote:Wait, is that forcing via mind control, or forcing via societal pressures and/or legal authority? I mean, it's splitting hairs to explain how mind-controlling a murderer to not murder is worse than arresting them and placing them in prison, but at least there are hairs to split there at all.

But if forcing is forcing no matter the means... apparently what they want is an anarchist utopia where everyone just does whatever they want, man, and who are you to stop them from eating babies?

Doesn't matter. Just "forcing". Mind-controlling a murderer is as bad as arresting him in this scheme.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:53 am

Dogbert: People seem immensely in support of it. So the moral of the story is that's perfectly okay, as long as you don't use magic to do it, at which point it's completely monstrous?

That's... certainly a position someone could take.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat May 21, 2016 10:56 am

maglag wrote:Never read Harry Dresden, but did he run around placing geas and mind control stuff on everybody he didn't like?

The final step of every wizard PI story ever is confronting the monster of the week and making it stop doing the evil deed. Under nnMage Wisdom scale doing so is a Wisdom sin, because I'm pretty sure it's against demon's interest to leave the possessed body and it's against werewolf's interest to go into Magetanamo Bay for his crimes.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Sat May 21, 2016 11:54 am

Longes: Can't really speak about dresden world metaphysics to comment about the demon possession scenario (why take over a frail meatbag body when you're already a powerful eternal being after all?), but I'm pretty sure it is indeed on the werewolf's best interest to be locked into magetamo bay and cool down his head than eventually taking a face full of silver bullets (assuming here that silver is super-effective against HD werewolves).

Dogbert wrote:
Omegonthesane wrote:If we had access to magic lobotomies that weren't like actual lobotomies at all and instead resulted in the recipient being basically the same person except not a murderer, maybe we would magic-lobotomise murderers.
Chemical castration. It's proved to make rapists less aggressive and prone to be rehabilitated. Ask around and see what people think of it.

This guy didn't seem to enjoy it much. I heard he was pretty smart too.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat May 21, 2016 2:26 pm

So it turns out someone else has made a Disgaea game, using Pathfinder. I am confident mine is better, for three reasons:
1. Obviously I'd think my version is better
2. Pathfinder
3. I had some Den input on it

I am more mildly amused than anything else, and it speaks to an obvious need that exists. Also they had the good sense to make the same kind of dumb references that I did for silly ability names, because you sort of need to do that with Disgaea.

Should I do a review thread of it or something? Would that be in any way interesting and not just an exercise in futility and hating "someone else's stuff"?

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sat May 21, 2016 3:16 pm

Dogbert wrote:
Omegonthesane wrote:If we had access to magic lobotomies that weren't like actual lobotomies at all and instead resulted in the recipient being basically the same person except not a murderer, maybe we would magic-lobotomise murderers.
Chemical castration. It's proved to make rapists less aggressive and prone to be rehabilitated. Ask around and see what people think of it.

What you are describing is not "basically the same person but their personality and nothing else has changed", what you are describing is "basically the same person BUT THEY'VE BEEN FUCKING CASTRATED".

Which is to say - similarly to actual lobotomies, chemical castration has effects that are not "magically rehabilitate with magic" with which you can sidestep and obfuscate the core question of "is it or is it not acceptable to magically rehabilitate people with magic".

maglag wrote:Longes: Can't really speak about dresden world metaphysics to comment about the demon possession scenario (why take over a frail meatbag body when you're already a powerful eternal being after all?), but I'm pretty sure it is indeed on the werewolf's best interest to be locked into magetamo bay and cool down his head than eventually taking a face full of silver bullets (assuming here that silver is super-effective against HD werewolves).

It is in the werewolf's best interest to tear into tiny pieces everyone who dares to take steps towards acquiring silver bullet capability and never ever ever to come quietly. They aren't doomed to eventually get silver-bulleted in the wild any more than they are doomed to get eventually silver-shanked in Magmo.

Koumei wrote:So it turns out someone else has made a Disgaea game, using Pathfinder. I am confident mine is better, for three reasons:
1. Obviously I'd think my version is better
2. Pathfinder
3. I had some Den input on it

I am more mildly amused than anything else, and it speaks to an obvious need that exists. Also they had the good sense to make the same kind of dumb references that I did for silly ability names, because you sort of need to do that with Disgaea.

Should I do a review thread of it or something? Would that be in any way interesting and not just an exercise in futility and hating "someone else's stuff"?

I'm sure you have other unfinished projects already, and fangames aren't really notable enough to point and laugh at because you aren't meant to pay for them.