Orientalist Fantasy Settings

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch »

deaddmwalking wrote:, I would expect regional differences to trump clan affiliation.

It does.

The average person's loyalty hierarchy will still probably looks something like Close Family>Close Friends>Local Community>Randos with the same last name clan. The key point that keeps clans a relevant social construct is the fact that the overlap between clan and close family can be pretty intense--everyone's got a mom and unless something weird is going on she's got a clan affiliation. So out in the boonies clan affiliation is going to seem like a big deal because everyone's a boar or whatever but that won't necessarily hold true in more cosmopolitan areas.
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Post by DrPraetor »

I think the best guides are the Tribes of Israel, the Millet system of the Ottoman Empire, and, actually, the Clans from Vampire the Masquerade. The Clans probably did have geographical territories at some point, but my Dad is a Benjaminite: do I live in Jerusalem? In fact, if the clans mostly go back to the foundation of the Empire, a typical clan's "ancestral lands" might be the equivalent of a cardinal-parish in Rome: a fancy palace in the Capital that is mainly a source of prestige. In the time period where the game is set, there's a Raven street in every major city, and individual manors or estates might be mostly Raven pretty much anywhere.

Another Q: Do you want outcaste characters, or disgraced clans? I can go either way, but it seems like a disgraced bloodline, which is definitely a sub-clan unit, would be a better distinction. Some clans might have many disgraced bloodlines but it would never be a forced choice, as would be being outcaste presumably.
I can see a social organization in which clan membership was basically required to participate in Imperial society, and the population of border provinces, protectorates and dependencies assimilates by some combination of marriage and clan-adoption.
Thus, each clan can be multi-ethnic, and no-one thinks this is weird. You can play your clan "against type" by being incompletely acculturated, among other ways.

A possibly harder Q: How much charop leverage should your clan have? On the one hand, people want Raven-school swordfighting and they want it to have it's own tricks and capstones and shit. On the other hand, if I want to play a Fox samurai with a glaive and I suck because I don't have Ravenstrike, that's no good.
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I don't have a good answer to this. Even elfCrane-specific items and starting equipment are a potential headache; these are things that people both want and don't want to be denied.
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Post by Username17 »

DeadDMWalking wrote:But if you're from Heilongjiang and you find yourself in Yunnan, I would expect regional differences to trump clan affiliation. If it doesn't, I think you need to at least explain why having a common ancestor 1000 years ago means you can expect a warmer relationship than their neighbor of 20 years who happens to be a different clan.
That's a very North American view of how the world should work. I suggest visiting Europe. Or Africa. Or really any part of Asia. Heck, even in North America it doesn't work that way for black people.

Imagine telling a Bosnian Serb that they should have more affinity for a Bosnian Muslim than for a Macedonian Serb. Or telling a Russian in Donetsk that they should have more affinity for Kiew than Moscow because it's physically closer. Just go to Eastern Europe and talk to Slavs about how they feel about tribes, nations, and state borders. Or go to any part of Africa and have the same discussion.

Our Orientalist Fantasy Empire is an Empire in the classic sense. It contains within it Nations in the classic sense. The declaration of Westphalia has not happened and regionally incorporated states with defined borders and citizenry do not exist.

Think about the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Russian Empire, or the Ottoman Empire. Being Armenian in the Ottoman Empire doesn't mean you are someone who comes from the Armenian majority region of the Kharput Vilayet, it means that you have a persistent tribal designation (and that you are a member of one of three different non-Muslim religious groups). Being a Bohemian in the Austro-Hungarian Empire doesn't mean that you live in the geographical area of the former kingdom of Bohemia, it means that you are born to tribal members of the Bohemians and that you speak Czech. If you're an Austrian living in Prague you are not a Bohemian and if you're a Bohemian living in Vienna you are a Bohemian.

In an Empire the chain of command is regional. The provincial Governor tells the provincial Minister of Justice to investigate a thing, the provincial Minister of Justice delegates the task to the player characters, and the PCs start the adventure. But clan affiliations don't care about any of that. If you step outside the chain of command and your very closest social circles, you are the same nation as other Tiger Clan people from another province and you are not the same nation as Shark Clan people from one village over.

And remember that the Empire probably had an active policy of moving people from various parts of the empire to other parts of the empire. Like how the British empire shipped people from Africa to North America to work manual labor while shipping people from India to Africa to work as administrators. The reason why there are members of the Boar Clan working in the Ministry of Justice in every province of the Empire is that a few generations back some Emperor decided he liked Boar Clan judges and actively shipped Boar Clan families to every province of the Empire to go work in the Ministry of Justice. That might sound racist and insane, but that's how pre-nation state empires really did things. Like, all the time. See Ottoman Jannisaries or the Cossacks who work for the Czar.

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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Historically, sharing the same family name as someone else is a BFD. I think it's actually difficult for a lot of people to get their heads around how strong pre-modern blood ties were, societally. As an example, under multiple law codes (including traditional Chinese), property rights are enforced at the family level, not the personal level. That means that if your brother steals your wallet, no crime has been committed, because the property stayed within the family. Even if an individual has no emotional attachment to others with their family name, they have a legal attachment.

And that's not even getting into the thing where reputation also existed at a familial level. If you are related to an asshole, you get partial credit for all their assholery. That's how society enforces its norms.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Historically, sharing the same family name as someone else is a BFD. I think it's actually difficult for a lot of people to get their heads around how strong pre-modern blood ties were, societally.
Does that make it a good idea to avoid that, and go for a historically accurate, but familiar set-up where it's all about nations? Not saying that it necessarily does, but I could see an argument there.

Or if you wanted to be a bit topical, the dominant group in an area claiming everyone should view things in terms of the nation they are part of, smaller groups not having that luxury.
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Post by Username17 »

Thaluikhain wrote:Does that make it a good idea to avoid that, and go for a historically inaccurate, but familiar set-up where it's all about nations? Not saying that it necessarily does, but I could see an argument there.
I don't think that's remotely a good idea.

Having different people be on the same team wearing different pseudo-Asian outfits with color coded animal heraldry is the goal. Forgoing a historical clan affiliation model for a post-Westphalian regional patriotism model brings us farther away from that.

We embrace modern sensibilities where and when they make the story better or more palatable. We have female samurai warriors. We don't have serfs belonging to good guys. But we don't put in anachronisms that don't serve a purpose. And we certainly don't write in anachronisms that make stories harder to tell.

The pre-modern concept of clan affiliation transcending lines on maps altogether and of Empires being explicitly made over the top of a patchwork of peoples is good. That gives us the multi-clan adventuring parties we crave, as well as giving us built-in social powers for Octopus Clan and Boar Clan characters to have. There's no advantage in having the Ox Clan people of Molal Province care nothing for the Ox Clan people of Rando Province because they consider themselves Molalese or whatever. That's an anachronism which serves no purpose but severely undermines the levers of intrigue and leg work available to Ox Clan characters.

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Post by Whipstitch »

FrankTrollman wrote: I'm with you on Raven sounding cooler than Crow. Indeed, I could see "Crow" being used as an insult against members of the Raven clan.

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The problem here is that both crow and raven are too good. I'm only OK with Crow or Raven being a mild insult if there's both a Raven and a Crow clan who get fussy about this shit. Basically, Ravens should be the pretentious goth wizards, scholars and poets while the Crows should be the pretentious rebellious pirate punks who use swears but have actually been to all the places that Ravens usually only write about. Both should be tricksy and claim to be older than the other.
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Post by Libertad »

I think when we discuss the creation of Asian fantasy settings, we need to keep some things in mind which surprisingly have gone more or less unmentioned in this thread.

First off, drop the "Orientalist" descriptor. That ship has sailed decades ago and isn't in vogue. You can't talk about the perils of cultural erasure in using European names for Asian monsters and then use a term that'll make Edward Said spit out his coffee.

Secondly, Asia, even East Asia, is huge. It eats Fantasy Europe for breakfast, and even that continent is far more diverse than fantasy gaming gives it credit for. China alone has a diversity of religions, languages, and regions which can be a Faerun all its own.

The Last Airbender managed to derive inspiration from various Asian cultures, but it was the exception rather than the rule. I have yet to see a published setting which incorporates Cathar heretics, Byzantine maiming culture, Nordic weregilds, ur-socialist peasant communes, and other little cultural tidbits which comprised the rich breadth of European culture, and making an "Asian setting" is going to be even harder unless you hire a stable of historians.

It would thus be best to focus on one specific region or culture. Japan and China are a dime a dozen and while popular, often rely upon pop culture pastiches. Doing a less visible setting may help this hypothetical work stand out. The Koryo Hall of Adventuring seeks to give Fantasy Korea the treatment that D&D has given to Japan, for instance.

Similarly, my friend Solo worked on an unfinished draft of a setting, Heroes of Chang An which sough to focus specifically on the Wuxia genre and outlines its tropes. Creating a themed setting with a stronger focus may be good in this regard than an overly-broad brush.

We all know about Rokugan, ninja movies, etc. But if you want some in-depth world-building you need to look beyond the Hollywood tropes. Ogrebattle had some good links on the third page about folkloric and religious practices. We can natter all day about kaiju or sword types, but a lot of games and worlds don't illustrate the social side of things beyond vague and, dare I say it, Orientalist tropes. How is the Chinese Imperial court system different than Feudal Britain? What do the average homes in the villages and cities look like? And so on and so forth. Otherwise you risk having a world which is Le Medieval Europe but with a palette swap.

Finally, and this is important, get cultural consultants. I recall that Ogrebattle and Dean live in Asia and have ties to the communities during my time on the Den years ago, but the words of people with feet on the ground and who dedicated time and effort to researching the area are worth their weight in gold. Otherwise you run the risk of making your Fantasy Asia an Orientalist Fantasy rather than an Inspired Chinese/Japanese/Indian/Khmer/etc Fantasy.

Edit: Also Rokugan is 90s Weeaboo Mary Sue setting with blatant author favorites. Plz don't use it as inspiration, even if it has a popular card game.
Last edited by Libertad on Sun May 19, 2019 1:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by DrPraetor »

Libertad wrote:First off, drop the "Orientalist" descriptor... make Edward Said spit out his coffee.
Dr. Said is dead, and patronizing representations of exotic foreigners are still alive.

More seriously, it's a compromise vs. Frank's original term: "yellowface." There is a certain merit to describing your cultural appropriation honestly, but I would scrub it out of a final draft, for sure.
Libertad wrote:I have yet to see a published setting which incorporates Cathar heretics, Byzantine maiming culture, Nordic weregilds, ur-socialist peasant communes, and other little cultural tidbits which comprised the rich breadth of European culture,
http://dominionsmods.com/index.php?showtopic=3364
Comes pretty close, and the author is only one Professor of comparative religion.

Japanochina is what people want. Anything we produce will have as much to do with the diplomatic relations between Song Dynasty China and the Empire of Pagan as Tolkien does with iron age Europe. So? It's just a game - you make a good faith effort to provide a setting that plays well, and that means you preferably avoid and as-needed-retcon anything that makes readers cringe. A realistic setting grounded in history isn't what you want either, because it can't deliver a smorgasbord of your favorite tropes from Kurosawa and the Five Deadly Venoms. Once you've done that, the proper answer to the question, "can I play a Malaysian pirate princess?", is not, "sorry, we haven't done enough research to present the Maharaja of Srivijaya in a culturally appropriate way," but rather, "yes, you can."

That is, because you want to start playing a game, rather than doing a deep dive into the period cuisine of the Shan people in the 1st millennium, you set up a plausible imperial state with a metric fuck tonne of white space and have at it.

The core mission of the project is to learn from those aspects of L5R that made it successful, without the ancient Elvesblatant NPC favoritism. This doesn't require a team of scholars, since we'd only use...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmawangsa wrote: also known in his posthumous name Wijayamreta Wardhana which means "powerful in glorious death",
random snippets of awesome shit like that. To be clear, Wijayamreta Wardhana can lead an army of vengeful ghost warriors because this is a game and we can mash up whatever makes for a cool backdrop against which the players tell cooperative stories.
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Post by Username17 »

Libertad wrote:It would thus be best to focus on one specific region or culture.
Definitely not. I mean, you wouldn't say "Dungeons & Dragons needs to remove Centaurs and Ogres because it needs to concentrate on Norse mythology." Because that's crazy. Fantasy is pastiche. You take elements that are cool and you put them in the blender. And then you blend them.

But beyond that, consider the Burakumin in the L5R RPG book. It's specific to the Japanese region and culture for them to exist. It's even historically accurate for them to be treated as subhuman untouchables and designated "Eta." as they are in that book. It's just that that's deeply offensive. Because the Burakumin are real people whose oppression is also very real, and casually repeating racist insults against them is heartless cruelty and dispassionately reporting their cruel treatment as a normalized fact rather than as an offensive injustice is defacto supporting it.

Doing a deeper dive on a particular culture isn't necessarily more respectful to anyone. Lots of things in real cultures and real places and real histories are actually really shameful.

On the other hand, having a female samurai riding around on a Korean cock-dragon while holding a Vietnamese cavalry saber is "awesome." There's no drawback here, it's just genuinely a pretty cool image for a woman to be wearing a samurai helmet, wielding a gươm, and riding on a gye-long. That's elements four different regions and time periods, but so fucking what? It's awesome, and unlike being historically accurate about the insults used against the Burakumin, it's not specifically shitting on real world people.

Your monster manual will be cooler if it contains the fifty coolest monsters you can find from anywhere in Asia than it would be if you scratched up the fifty most historically accurate monsters from the mythology of any particular time and place. Gygaxification is the way forward. Every monster manual for every game has pretty much looked like the AD&D Monster manual from 1977 because that is the right way to make a monster manual.

And not to put too fine a point on it: but borrowing massively from other cultures and time periods is how fantasy storytelling has always worked within any particular culture or time period. The Cambodian Naga is different from the Japanese Naga or the Tamil Naga, but they all have Naga stories because they borrow awesome things from each other's stories. If the people of the Tang Dynasty had heard stories of the Aztec Ocēlōtl, they would have told stories of the Aztec Ocēlōtl. Cultural purity is itself a racist myth that has never actually existed and would be a bad thing if it did.

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Post by Libertad »

Japanochina is what people want. Anything we produce will have as much to do with the diplomatic relations between Song Dynasty China and the Empire of Pagan as Tolkien does with iron age Europe. So? It's just a game - you make a good faith effort to provide a setting that plays well, and that means you preferably avoid and as-needed-retcon anything that makes readers cringe. A realistic setting grounded in history isn't what you want either, because it can't deliver a smorgasbord of your favorite tropes from Kurosawa and the Five Deadly Venoms. Once you've done that, the proper answer to the question, "can I play a Malaysian pirate princess?", is not, "sorry, we haven't done enough research to present the Maharaja of Srivijaya in a culturally appropriate way," but rather, "yes, you can."
A lot of what the gaming public wants is not necessarily what will make a healthy or even respectable setting. My point in illustrating the diversity of Europe was to show that even many European and US game designers cannot get this right or even care, and this will have an effect on any tabletop game being published with a non-Western mileau unless they do their due diligence beyond "hey is this pop culture anime/movie/etc trope hot shit?" Otherwise you'll end up with something approximating Weeaboo Art School Project, or the Asian equivalent of those foreign movies which presume that all of the USA is like Texas.
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Several things to address in your post. It's very easy and surface-level to adopt non-Western monsters willy-nilly for the cool factor. D&D does it all the time. But that's an easy street: monsters are often folktales easy to take at face value, made for entertainment purposes, or touch on some moral tale which relates to the dominant culture at hand that may not be readily obvious. There's also the fact that game designers in the West will still have a Eurocentric lens. If doing it for a typical fantasy setting, you run the risk of doing what Monte Cook did in making the Thunderbird an evil gog. Or statting out the Hindu pantheon in Deities & Demigods. The result is that you end up pissing off real people from that culture by giving a "kill Vishnu, get 1 million XP" message in your books.

Many Dungeons & Dragons settings have a Filipino vampire monster, the Aswang, but no Filipino-counterpart people. They have Persian monsters like the Lammasu, but no Persian-counterpart people. Or if they do, they end up coded as Arabs. By your desire to stick to cool monsters in an attempt to avoid recreating the classism/racism portrayed in existing settings is a false choice. You end up trading the desire to avoid one minefield and wander into another where you're willing to poach from the surface level of one culture but have no room for counterpart people of said culture in your fantasy game.

Delving into a culture, including its darker spots on history, does not necessarily equate to an endorsement. Rokugan, Arrows of Indra, etc got in hot water less for showing an unjust society and more due to portraying it as the natural order of things. Tales of the Caliphate Nights, an Arabian Nights-style setting, did a good job in this in noting that while religious repression, slavery, etc existed in 800 AD, the book overall painted it as an injustice even if was supported by the status quo. As for avoiding unintentional slurs, a cultural consultant/historian will help in this manner.

Secondly, focusing does not necessarily mean exclusion. Your Chinese Wuxia or Japanese Samurai game may have Filipino traders to the north and a Khmer Empire stand-in in the tropical south, but there will be less text dedicated to it. If our hypothetical setting picks up and gets popular, more sourcebooks can be made to further expand upon them. Kobold Press did this with Midgard: the German writer focused at first on Central and Eastern European legends and folklore, but over time with more articles/magazines/PDFs/etc he expanded his world into covering a lot more territory, including a Fantasy Africa counterpart the Southlands. It's impractical to try and write up an entire setting of a continent with 6000 years of history and one-third the world population in a single sourcebook. Starting off slow with certain areas, and working your way up, is better.

In fact, most of this thread has already focused on the Big Two Asian countries, and this does not necessarily demonstrate some desire for "racial purity" on the part of the posters. Just the inevitability that our limitations of literature and media will prioritize certain people and places. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, just be mindful of it, especially when venturing out of that sandbox begins and ends at not-human elements from said cultures.

Tabletop gaming operates on a shoestring budget, and most of the funds go to artwork. The workload of ensuring that your not-Vietnamese, not-Korean, etc don't end up like the not-Norse and not-Slavs of typical D&D* will be a lot harder, even with cultural consultants, because the tales of civilizations we're less familiar with have not entered into the cultural consciousness. Most of us don't have that "lived experience" to draw from that we take for granted when talking about knights and wizards. This is doubly true in a design by committee game like this thread is for, unless the opinions of experts are prioritized over other posters.

*British/Japanese people with slightly different names

Finally, this is not to say that it's a losing battle. But that it's a whole different beast, and approaching it solely with a "rule of cool" without knowing the greater context can be foolhardy and you end up with another Evil Thunderbird.
Last edited by Libertad on Sun May 19, 2019 8:11 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

FrankTrollman wrote:On the other hand, having a female samurai riding around on a Korean cock-dragon while holding a Vietnamese cavalry saber is "awesome." There's no drawback here, it's just genuinely a pretty cool image for a woman to be wearing a samurai helmet, wielding a gươm, and riding on a gye-long. That's elements four different regions and time periods, but so fucking what?
If done wrong, though, it comes across as saying there's only one region and time period, that Asia and Asians are somehow a homogeneous whole. Which, regardless of the intent of the author, is an attitude we see a lot of, unfortunately.

It doesn't have to be done wrong, but it's something that requires some effort to be done right.
Libertad wrote:Many Dungeons & Dragons settings have a Filipino vampire monster, the Aswang, but no Filipino-counterpart people. They have Persian monsters like the Lammasu, but no Persian-counterpart people. Or if they do, they end up coded as Arabs. By your desire to stick to cool monsters in an attempt to avoid recreating the classism/racism portrayed in existing settings is a false choice. You end up trading the desire to avoid one minefield and wander into another where you're willing to poach from the surface level of one culture but have no room for counterpart people of said culture in your fantasy game.
Second that, there's an awful lot of that around.
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Post by Solo »

Libertad wrote: Your Chinese Wuxia or Japanese Samurai game may have Filipino traders to the north and a Khmer Empire stand-in in the tropical south, but there will be less text dedicated to it. If our hypothetical setting picks up and gets popular, more sourcebooks can be made to further expand upon them.
I'd like to expand on this point slightly: the ancient world was more interconnected through trade than people often think. During the Tang dynasty, thousands of foreign merchants came to China, including, but not limited to, Persians, Arabs, Hindu Indians, Malays, Bengalis, Sinhalese, Khmers, Chams, Jews and Nestorian Christians.

This would make for fascinating sourcebook expansion material.

Malaysian pirate princess ho!
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Solo wrote:I'd like to expand on this point slightly: the ancient world was more interconnected through trade than people often think. During the Tang dynasty, thousands of foreign merchants came to China, including, but not limited to, Persians, Arabs, Hindu Indians, Malays, Bengalis, Sinhalese, Khmers, Chams, Jews and Nestorian Christians.

This would make for fascinating sourcebook expansion material.

Malaysian pirate princess ho!
An important point, and one that IMHO, allows you to easily borrow bits and pieces from various cultures. It's not that you don't know that there's a difference between Japan and China and Korea and have just lumped them together, it's that an individual ship has traveled between those totally different places, and has hired one or more people/monsters from each and they are physically lumped together.
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Post by OgreBattle »

I like 1500-1600’s pirates, lots of interesting personalities

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisu_Iko
Kage ryu school founder, believed to have been a pirate in coastal China in his youth

the Ming adapted katana style swords
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2 ... o.html?m=1
Some manuals mention Chinese studying under Japanese swordsmen, and the Kage ryu style being known in the Ming military http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/p ... l.html?m=1

Here’s a greatsword combining Japanese nodachi and mongol saber styles http://mandarinmansion.com/ming-dandao


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koxinga
His father was a Ming pirate so powerful they made him an admiral instead of fighting, mother Japanese. His father sided with the Qing and the son went to Taiwan and fought the Dutch east India company. He had African musketeers too


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamada_Nagamasa
Red seal ship captain and mercenary and Ayutthaya kingdom governor

Vietnam was a travel hub of East SEA Europeans and used weapons from all over http://mandarinmansion.com/antique-vietnamese-arms

A bunch of Japanese clans claim descent from various Chinese dynasties, like this One https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hata_clan says they’re Qin dynasty descendants. Korean scholar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wani_(scholar) founded a clan too.

Hayao Miyazaki on prehistoric Japanese origins in what is now Yunnan and Himelayas https://www.nippon.com/en/in-depth/a039 ... hayao.html
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Post by Username17 »

Libertad wrote:It's very easy and surface-level to adopt non-Western monsters willy-nilly for the cool factor. D&D does it all the time. But that's an easy street: monsters are often folktales easy to take at face value, made for entertainment purposes, or touch on some moral tale which relates to the dominant culture at hand that may not be readily obvious.
Counterpoint: surface level monster adaptations are fucking awesome.

I'm not going to defend desecrating the gods of other cultures, peoples, and religious movements. I don't think you should use real gods and religions at all. It's clumsy and embarrassing when Ed Greenwood does it, and it's fucking worse when it's Yellowface shit.

The hokey 5 Ring Temples thing that L5R had were... not great. But they were serviceable. The thing where every so often they forgot they weren't doing a book report about Japan and talked about the actual Seven Lucky Gods was... that was face palm worthy.

I think the interplay between Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism is really interesting and an important part of fantasy China. Similarly the interplay between Buddhism and Shinto is important to fantasy Japan and the interplay between Buddhism and Confucianism, and Muism is important to fantasy Korea. But at the same time, actually using "Buddha" is incredibly out of place and also almost certain to be offensive. You want and need three to four fantasy religions in your Orientalist fantasy empire, but they have to be fantasy religions, that aren't literally Earth religions.

Which is part of the whole superficial grab bag approach. It isn't actually better to do a deeper dive into Shinto, it's worse. Once you start actually mangling peoples' actual religion you're into blasphemy territory. As long as you just have some superficial similarities in your overtly fantasy religion, things are fine.

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Post by Ancient History »

There's a counterpoint to that, which is send-ups of Christianity are almost always acceptable if written by Western authors for a Western audience. Case in point: GURPS Banestorm is set on Yrth, where a bunch of Crusaders were dropped into a fantasy world and set up a Crusader kingdom.

The takeaway being that low fantasy has different rules than high fantasy, even when it comes from Orientalism. Creating a Fantasy PseudoJapan and misappropriating the Japanese religion is shitty; creating a fantasy setting where Japan exists and Japanese religion exists too is...fine, as long as you do the research and go for a faithful and accurate representation.
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Post by Solo »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Libertad wrote:It's very easy and surface-level to adopt non-Western mo
I think the interplay between Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism is really interesting and an important part of fantasy China. Similarly the interplay between Buddhism and Shinto is important to fantasy Japan and the interplay between Buddhism and Confucianism, and Muism is important to fantasy Korea. But at the same time, actually using "Buddha" is incredibly out of place and also almost certain to be offensive. You want and need three to four fantasy religions in your Orientalist fantasy empire, but they have to be fantasy religions, that aren't literally Earth religions.

Which is part of the whole superficial grab bag approach. It isn't actually better to do a deeper dive into Shinto, it's worse. Once you start actually mangling peoples' actual religion you're into blasphemy territory. As long as you just have some superficial similarities in your overtly fantasy religion, things are fine.

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Counter-counterpoint: In order to do the superficial grab bag stuff well, you have to have dived deep in the first place.

I'll draw a parallel with Spaceballs. It could be described as a broad strokes parody of Star Wars with a bunch of jokes, but the jokes are only funny because Mel Brooks knew enough about Star Wars to know what would be good comedy fodder.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Dark Souls has made up gods, Sekiro has Buddhism

Naruto has Shinto and Buddhist deities for the xenophobic and the friendly clans.

Ronin Warriors has Confucian vs Buddhist virtues

Journey to the West novel has popularly worshipped Buddhist deities as antagonists at times. I love the Stephen chow movie with time travel that makes it a love story.

Shirow’s Orion has Shinto deities as sci-fi space beings

Tenra Bansho Zero has Buddha and Shinto in their planet Japan sci fantasy world, also popularized gunblades before FF8

Millions of Americans enjoy punching angels and secret boss fighting Vishnu in Persona.

So it’s not too unusual to use actual real world religion names. Though all of the above were made by people who grew up with Buddhism and so on. But yeah I can see changing names to get around potential bungling.

I also like Kentaro Miura’s take on not-Christianity and Anno’s use of abrahemic imagery to tell a cyclical tale of death and rebirth. Fairly ‘universal’ themes

A big part of doing it right for me is making it cool, and avoiding having ‘normal’ vs ‘other subhumans’. Like in Howard’s Conan everyone is a weirdo, but Spielberg’s Jones being an Anglo is ‘normal’ and anything else is a caricature orc.
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Post by maglag »

OgreBattle wrote: A big part of doing it right for me is making it cool, and avoiding having ‘normal’ vs ‘other subhumans’. Like in Howard’s Conan everyone is a weirdo, but Spielberg’s Jones being an Anglo is ‘normal’ and anything else is a caricature orc.
Or like Touhou where everybody named and even the nameless mooks have magic of some kind, with the mandatory "ordinary" character Marisa still being explicitly a magician. Mundane warriors need not apply, you can use a sword or your fists if you want, but only if you can also fly/teleport/change size/shape/ shoot beams/ breath fire/ make flower petals pop out of nowhere,

Also in Touhou there's a massive mixture of asian religions (with Mountain of Faith you challenging a god pantheon head on and Hopeless Masquerade things descending into a outright religious free-for-all war) with several bits of western fluff thrown in for good measure like Remilia being a western vampire that uses the Star of David for her rituals.

Plus there's multiple hells including an abandoned one after the shinigami there decided to move, and that's not counting "hell by other name" like Makai and the Netherworld.
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Post by Username17 »

I definitely wouldn't make the argument that because a "real Asian person" said something that it makes it OK to say. Lots of actual Japanese works are xenophobic, culturally chauvinist, casually racist, or specifically offensive to various religions or ethnicities.

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But beyond that, as we can see with words like "[EDITED]" we know that there's a substantial difference between deprecating language being used by people in the group and being used by people out of the group. A Japanese Buddhist man doing weird shit with mecha-Buddhas and stuff is simply that person expanding upon their own culture. A white person raised in the Christian tradition doing the same thing is shitting on someone else's culture.

In any case, as long as you're doing a fantasy world, you're going to want fantasy religions not Earth religions. And that especially applies to gods people actually worship today.

One of the things to think about is archetypes people actually want to play. And one of the big ones is "Monk." And by "Monk" I mean Monk in the Dungeons & Dragons sense. And that means you need to have religions and philosophies that build monasteries that train wandering martial artists. That's not negotiable. Something along those lines must exist. But it doesn't specifically have to be "Buddhist" and indeed it most definitely should not be. It just has to be a philosophy that embraces asceticism and punching people in the face.

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Post by Whipstitch »

Let's be perfectly frank here: a lot of this isn't really about making things completely inoffensive, it's about making it obvious you're making a good faith effort to be inoffensive. Skirting the edges of cultural appropriation is always a tricky game, but if you're going to take that risk it's much better to fuck up in ways that merely cause people to roll their eyes at your ignorant enthusiasm than it is to make people think that you are purposely antagonizing them. You want people to be able to laugh with you when you say something dumb rather than make people feel less human.
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Post by Username17 »

That brings us to supported archetypes. There are four that I think are non-negotiable: Warrior, Sorcerer, Monk, and Ninja. You can't do Orientalist Fantasy without supporting those archetypes.

But let's consider those archetypes. Warrior, obviously, can be divided and subdivided as much as you want to. Sorcerer can as well. Ninja and Monk are... more specific. Surely a Monk can be all the way into being a martial artist and a Monk could be a pacifist spellcaster, but that's really the entire axis of deviation. You got Monks that are more into rituals and spellcasting, and you got Monks that are more into punching people, and that's pretty much it. Similarly, Ninjas vary in how much they rely on martial prowess and how much they rely on spellcasting, but the different Ninjutsu techniques aren't meaningful divisions of character type - Sub Zero obviously isn't a different character class from Scorpion.

There are other archetypes that I think you could make a very convincing case for but are not mandatory. The first to consider is the Face. This could be subdivided as much as you want, as evidenced by the fact that you could plausibly call this character: Aristocrat, Bureaucrat, Courtier, Diplomat, Judge, Mastermind, Merchant, Minstrel, Noble, etc. etc.. However, such archetypes are sufficiently difficult to get to work in an RPG that I don't think there should be more than one or two. Another archetype that I think bears mentioning is the Gadgeteer. This can run anywhere from "the guy who has a gun" to "the guy who has a giant robot" and indeed could plausibly support multiple archetypes depending on what "tech" is allowed to do in your setting. And there are still other archetypes that rely on specific setting conceits such as Pokemaster and Yokai.

Now an important thing to remember is that splitting up archetypes makes each constituent member of the archetype weaker in concept and depth. If you split Sword skill and Spear skill, you're weakening all the melee weapon users because you are stripping them of whatever advantage they might have gleaned from switching between sword and spear. If you make Illusion magic and Summoning magic be different things, you're making Sorcerers weaker because they can't have both Illusions and Summonings. And so on and so on. Which brings us to the core insight:
  • People mostly do not want magic cut up, but it needs to happen because the narrative power of "Magic (undifferentiated)" is generally much larger than any other character concept.
  • Lots of people want to divide up warriors into little pieces, but this needs to be resisted because it doesn't take many divisions of the warrior's conceptual space before they aren't adding more to the story than unnamed follower #5.


One possibility of course is to do "soft classes" like Shadowrun. In which it's expected that people are going to make their own hybrid characters because everything is skill based. I'm personally ambivalent to that. There are certainly advantages to class-based and advantages to skill-based character creation. What I will say is that if you do skill-based, the same effects of splitting described above still apply. Splitting the Spear skill from the Sword skill makes the buy-in on being a Samurai more expensive, which makes Warriors less-good compared to Sorcerers.

Regardless of whether the chargen is handled with classes or skill point assignments, the presentation should emphasize the following:
  • About 16 playable sample characters that are all distinct.
  • All of the sample characters should be playable as any of the major clans with minimal substitution.
  • None of the characters should become unplayable with any of the potential clan, archetype or religion choices of the other characters.
So that means that you can't have nonsense like "Samurai won't work with Ninjas." or "Boar Clan won't work with followers of the Seven Ways." or "Aristocrats cannot be seen with Yokai." or fucking any of that nonsense.

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Post by Thaluikhain »

FrankTrollman wrote:Surely a Monk can be all the way into being a martial artist and a Monk could be a pacifist spellcaster, but that's really the entire axis of deviation. You got Monks that are more into rituals and spellcasting, and you got Monks that are more into punching people, and that's pretty much it.
Well...can't you distinguish between the types that learn secret ways of things in a monastery, leading a regimented life, and those that wander the wilderness contemplating the universe on their own terms? I don't want to say hermit, because that limits their adventuring somewhat, but something along those lines. The way paladins and rangers aren't the same.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

You could distinguish between monastic orders, wandering monks and hermits, but you probably don't want to do that with class.

You also have to recognize that all classes ought to have 'warrior abilities'. Even the geisha starts the 'dance of death' with her war fans and stabs fools in the throat. I don't think it's possible to make samurai ENOUGH better at using a weapon to make it their whole schtick.

The fantasy Asian setting really does need a dynamic where 'being very tough' is somewhat protected - the Samurai probably needs to be able to take 3x as many hits as the geisha, making him great at fighting mobs - a +3 on attack rolls, +2 on damage and +10 hit points isn't going to be enough.

Everyone also needs to be able to get easy access to magic - presumably something along the lines of 'spheres' that tie to the five elements with some other 'specialty schools' that remain in the realm of sorcerers only. Samurai with metal magic can use 'slice a tank in half' with their katana. Not every samurai might choose magic - you can probably get far being tough, strong, and hitting hard...

The setting also needs good mook rules and some classes will have to have anti-mook abilities.
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