The Gaming Den

One thing I really *liked* about the movie was the art direction. Some poorly-considered special effects aside, most of the movie was pure eye candy. Even decisions like giving the evil force-user (is it established that Ben is Sith?) a mask that resembles a medieval European knight's visor, and then having a vaguely Teutonic broadsword design for the lightsaber, were interesting.

Shrapnel wrote:I'm with Wiseman. I think the movie really tried too hard to be liked by everyone, like that one kid in class who really wants to get along with everyone and tries to get the other kids to like him, but ends up being really annoying and no one wants to be around him and his name is Eric.

The primary purpose of The Force Awakens is not to be good, its to manage the renewed franchise, and therefore the most important factor is that it not suck.

This is the first step in the part of a plan to produce a Marvel-style ongoing movie franchise of ten movies or more for Star Wars that maximizes merchandising, tie-ins, and all other forms of revenue. Movies that exist for this sort of franchise purpose don't actually need to be 'good' as films they just need enough of a reason to draw people into the theater in order to make lots of money. Furious 7 and Jurassic World are good comparison points: neither movie is particularly good, but neither are they especially bad, and they had just enough wow sequences to make them worth seeing (heck even Transformers: Age of Extinction, an objectively terrible movie, managed to make hundreds of millions of dollars by putting the dinobots on the big screen for five minutes).

Force Awakens doesn't actually contain any truly wow sequences because Abrams doesn't seem to be good at producing them (I don't recall anything particular awesome about either of the two Trek reboot films) but the movie is professional and doesn't suck and represents the strongest franchise on the planet. These days that's enough. It is entirely possible to make a meh blockbuster and still pull down truckloads of box office cash.

As a member of the demographic least disposed to be charitable to Force Awakens in any way - the bitter spurned EU fan - and who was dragged to the film out of holiday family solidarity I can say this with some conviction: this is a thoroughly inoffensive movie that tries really hard not to piss people off. It succeeds at this, but largely by being empty of soul.

The Resitance is named Resistance and not "Special Commands" or "Forward Defense Task Force" because the latter sounds like people in control, like the Man.
But people tend to side with the Underdog, so despite the end of Episode VI they needed to paint the good guys as David, while the bad guys are supposed to be Goliath - somehow. And thus they used some evocative names to psycho-bullshit the audience and hoped all questions about these names were drowned in the fast-paced action, at least for the average movie goer. Worked for Transformers every time.



On a different tangent, was I the only one that wondered why Luke is the 'only Jedi remaining'? I mean, perhaps Kylo Ren slaughtered his fellow students as Luke was fleeing in horror from the (obviously compleeetely unforeseeable) event of one of his students turning to the dark side. I can grok that. (Barely.)

But what about Leia? Episode VI made very clear that the Force is strong in Luke's family, including his sister, and heavily implied she would become a Jedi too - so why was her son trained, but not Leia herself? Did Ben or Yoda teach Luke about those stupid chastity rules, and Leia decided that she preferred handling Han's saber to wielding a lightsaber? Seems wasteful in a time where every bit of help is needed.



And since Star Wars Rebels is still canon: Does 'the only remaining Jedi' mean that the two resident Jedi on that show are foreshadowed to meet a violent end?

crasskris wrote: But what about Leia? Episode VI made very clear that the Force is strong in Luke's family, including his sister, and heavily implied she would become a Jedi too - so why was her son trained, but not Leia herself? Did Ben or Yoda teach Luke about those stupid chastity rules, and Leia decided that she preferred handling Han's saber to wielding a lightsaber? Seems wasteful in a time where every bit of help is needed.

Leia is a politician, not a monk. She'd by focused on rebuilding the Republic, rather than training.

hyzmarca wrote:

crasskris wrote: But what about Leia? Episode VI made very clear that the Force is strong in Luke's family, including his sister, and heavily implied she would become a Jedi too - so why was her son trained, but not Leia herself? Did Ben or Yoda teach Luke about those stupid chastity rules, and Leia decided that she preferred handling Han's saber to wielding a lightsaber? Seems wasteful in a time where every bit of help is needed.

Leia is a politician, not a monk. She'd by focused on rebuilding the Republic, rather than training.

Sure, possible. Although one might argue that most Jedi powers not related to sticking glowsticks into people might be more than helpful with that. That might justify spending some time training - especially since developing your powers doesn't seem to take that much time, see Luke and Rey.

Speculation aside, I'd like to have had some explanation in the film, since that jerked me out of my suspension of disbelief every time Luke was mentioned as the remaining one Jedi. Doubly so since Leia seemed to sense the big twist at the end happening.

Leia possesses force powers but is not a Jedi. This is not a difficult concept.

name_here wrote:Leia possesses force powers but is not a Jedi. This is not a difficult concept.

So...she's completely suspectible to the temptations of the Dark Side, but without a Jedi training protecting her from it?

Or can you have force powers, like a Jedi, but become only affected by the Dark Side once you train as a Jedi? Or rebuke it's lure if you're just a cool-headed enough person? Because either way becoming a Jedi seems like a kinda shitty deal, and I have no idea why anyone would look for Luke in that case.



You might agree that neither of these questions are conductive to the enjoyment of an (otherwise mostly well done) movie. Especially since literally a single line (e.g. Han saying "I hope you're not bitter that you gave up your Jedi training for me" during the reunion scene) could have prevented that.

But hey, maybe I am the only one bothered by that detail.

crasskris wrote:

name_here wrote:Leia possesses force powers but is not a Jedi. This is not a difficult concept.

So...she's completely suspectible to the temptations of the Dark Side, but without a Jedi training protecting her from it?

Or can you have force powers, like a Jedi, but become only affected by the Dark Side once you train as a Jedi? Or rebuke it's lure if you're just a cool-headed enough person? Because either way becoming a Jedi seems like a kinda shitty deal, and I have no idea why anyone would look for Luke in that case.

Or Jedi are the only known tradition that includes formal training in the Force. It's not that you're necessarily more vulnerable to the Dark Side, it's just that it doesn't do much unless your force powers have been leveled up. Spiderman's powers don't make him more likely to turn evil, but he's much more dangerous were he to.

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Kessel Run length discussion moved to its own thread by request.
[/TGFBS]

Also, I apologize for falsely attributing quotes to hyzmarca. He responded and I assumed the OG quotes were his as well. I stand by my argument that nostalgia makes the OT better than Ep VII, but even as a diehard fan I try to be aware of it when making value judgements about OT vs. Ep VII.

On a different note, I swear I didn't make those quotes up, but I can't find them anywhere in the thread. In a different thread, perhaps?

Game On,
fbmf

fbmf wrote:[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Kessel Run length discussion moved to its own thread by request.
[/TGFBS]

Also, I apologize for falsely attributing quotes to hyzmarca. He responded and I assumed the OG quotes were his as well. I stand by my argument that nostalgia makes the OT better than Ep VII, but even as a diehard fan I try to be aware of it when making value judgements about OT vs. Ep VII.

On a different note, I swear I didn't make those quotes up, but I can't find them anywhere in the thread. In a different thread, perhaps?

Game On,
fbmf

Maybe you accidentally moved them to Kessel?

I want to take this opportunity to say I think Harrison Ford's performance is being widely and wildly overrated by frenzied fan boys.

He did OK, but frankly he was given too big a part for his capabilities and while it wasn't disastrous it somewhat lessened the quality of the movie compared to some hypothetical better movie where they cut his screen time back down very significantly.

Somehow Chewbacca also managed to show his age. I don't know whether that's surprisingly good or surprisingly bad acting though.

PhoneLobster wrote: Somehow Chewbacca also managed to show his age. I don't know whether that's surprisingly good or surprisingly bad acting though.

Heh, it's funny you say that since the folks I watched with were commenting how it doesn't look like Chewie aged at all, and that they should have given him some grey hairs too. It was hard for me to tell.

The actor himself is now 71 years old and a whopping 7'3". People at extreme heights and with Marfan's tend not to age well from the stress it puts on the body. He did get hospitalized for pneumonia early this year a few months after filming ended. I'm surprised he can do the role at all, let alone steal scenes. I thought he did a great job.

crasskris wrote:
But hey, maybe I am the only one bothered by that detail.

Yes, you are. If having force powers without jedi training made you more susceptible to the dark side then they wouldn't keep refusing to train people for being "too old". This isn't 40k, The Force isn't The Warp, and jedi are not psykers.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:

crasskris wrote:
But hey, maybe I am the only one bothered by that detail.

Yes, you are. If having force powers without jedi training made you more susceptible to the dark side then they wouldn't keep refusing to train people for being "too old". This isn't 40k, The Force isn't The Warp, and jedi are not psykers.

Leia has apparently lived a life of service and self-sacrifice. She doesn't want power because she gets her jollies dominating others, but she uses what she has.

She's just not a personality who would be very interested in the Dark Side. And you know what? That's fine.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:If having force powers without jedi training made you more susceptible to the dark side then they wouldn't keep refusing to train people for being "too old".

To be fair, the Jedi seem to have been wrong on that point. Luke was "too old," did well for himself despite not formally completing his training, and became first of the new Jedi. So I can see him telling that rule to go fuck off, especially since Yoda is the only one that really enforced it (Obi-Wan totally wanted to train Luke despite his age).

This isn't 40k, The Force isn't The Warp, and jedi are not psykers.

Thank God the Force for that. 40k is stupid to the point it makes the prequels look consistent and well though out by comparison.

I don't see what's so stupid about space marines eating brains to gain other people's memories.

Darth Rabbitt wrote:especially since Yoda is the only one that really enforced it (Obi-Wan totally wanted to train Luke despite his age).

Obi-Wan also apparently made the same argument once before, and that totally worked out just fine...

The too old thing is almost certainly super dumb, but dumb or not, the fact that it was even an option must mean that people not trained are at less risk of going dark.

erik wrote:
Heh, it's funny you say that since the folks I watched with were commenting how it doesn't look like Chewie aged at all, and that they should have given him some grey hairs too. It was hard for me to tell.

I dunno where shit stands anymore in terms of canon but supposedly wookiees can live a long ass time.

crasskris wrote:So...she's completely suspectible to the temptations of the Dark Side, but without a Jedi training protecting her from it?

Jedi training doesn't protect you. It strengthens your ability to use the force, which increases the feedback of having Force powers and makes the temptation of the Dark stronger along with you.

I did find the following Telegraph article interesting: 11 Things they Cut from Star Wars: the Force Awakens

I do wish they'd gone with a female evil Force user. Where did this old Snoke guy come from, since the Sith were supposed to be all dead?

Even better, I wish Ren had just restarted the Sith on his own.

The Force Awakens really drops the ball on the nature of the Force, though that could just be Snoke blowing smoke up Ben's ass. But really, the Force, as portrayed in the first six films, doesn't have a Light Side. It has a Dark Side and a Neutral Side. And the Dark Side isn't actually a side, that's just convenient shorthand for something rather much more complex, which isn't a natural part of the Force.

Occluded Sun wrote:

crasskris wrote:So...she's completely suspectible to the temptations of the Dark Side, but without a Jedi training protecting her from it?

Jedi training doesn't protect you. It strengthens your ability to use the force, which increases the feedback of having Force powers and makes the temptation of the Dark stronger along with you.

Indeed, which is why Yoda's main focus was on teaching him how to avoid the Dark Side, rather than all the cool powers.

I think the Light Side vs Dark Side and what the Dark Side is is basically incoherent.

I mean, there is a Cave that is filled with Dark Side energy, so the Dark Side is a specific thing unattached to a person, but by the same token, nothing is ever dark except force users and a random cave. Even angry assholes committing genocide does not appear to be Dark Sided unless those angry assholes are strong in the force.

But yet, the Dark side is created by emotions, so apparently the path to the Dark Side is just being angry. Yoda just straight tells luke to go into the Dark Side cave. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan ever warns luke of any possible way to fall to the dark side besides some emotions. So it sure seems like the Dark Side is pretty much just something created by the evil bad force users, so there is no actual dark side, it's just a statement of "with great power comes great responsibility."

Spoiler Alert the magic super powers that are also morality are as incoherent as morality and magical powers usually are in stories.

Occluded Sun wrote:I do wish they'd gone with a female evil Force user. Where did this old Snoke guy come from, since the Sith were supposed to be all dead?

Even better, I wish Ren had just restarted the Sith on his own.

I've been under the impression that Snoke & Ren aren't Sith.

virgil wrote:

Occluded Sun wrote:I do wish they'd gone with a female evil Force user. Where did this old Snoke guy come from, since the Sith were supposed to be all dead?

Even better, I wish Ren had just restarted the Sith on his own.

I've been under the impression that Snoke & Ren aren't Sith.

Indeed, despite alleged cannon of the prequels, the Force Awakens wants as little to do with them as possible. And in fact, there is no particular reason to believe that any specific Dark Side Force User is a Sith, unless they learned from Sith. Just being an asshole who murders people to murder is still a thing.

Although, they do have Holocrons in the Disney cannon from Rebels, so a Sith Holocron is not impossible, but it would, quite frankly, suck if that was the case.